Where does tithing go to?

[Smeagums]

If the funds are the Lord's is it okay if they are used for other reasons than prescribed in the Doctrine and Covenants?

[pam]

If the funds are the Lord's is it okay if they are used for other reasons than prescribed in the Doctrine and Covenants?

Such as?

[Smeagums]

Such as?

I have no one thing in particular I am thinking about. Just generally speaking (asking).

[Guest]

I guess I have a different mindset on this. Many mission presidents put careers on hold for 3 years to serve a mission. This is pretty much financed on their own but receive a small stipend for some living expenses. I've never known one that had a maid that was funded by the church.

They oversee hundreds of elders and sister missionaries. They sometimes have to house missionaries temporarily. They are sometimes asked to host visiting general authorities over the missionary program. All this they do to see the work going forward. I have a friend who was a mission president. In fact he was Dravin's mission president. They give up much during their 3 years to serve the Lord. To me..so what if the church paid to have a cleaning lady come in once a week. With all that they do and all that they are responsible for...it's a small thing.

The senior missionary couple in my town in the Philippines have a maid. Most families from lower middle class to super rich have maids. They have maids because they don't have washer/dryers, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, and all the thinga-magicks that are normal American household appliances. If they don't have a maid, they will be spending most of their day everyday doing nothing else but handwashing their laundry, washing dishes, dusting and sweeping (no central A/C which means windows are always open which means dust from the unpaved areas which are always present in neighborhoods fly easily to your house), buying groceries from the market (refrigerators come in small sizes there, even eggs and milk are not refrigerated.), burning their trash, cutting and weeding the yard (no lawnmowers either - you use this ginormous scissors thingee and a scythe), picking up the mail from the town center, etc. etc.

I'm glad the Church don't put out that info. That kind of info is just one more fodder for contention for those with weak testimonies or those without one.

If you don't trust your leaders, you simply raise your hand to oppose when they ask for the yearly sustaining vote.

Edited September 12, 2013 by anatess

[Dravin]

If the funds are the Lord's is it okay if they are used for other reasons than prescribed in the Doctrine and Covenants?

D&C 1:38 comes to mind. If anyone is in a position to give voice as to the use of the Lord's possessions it would be those the Lord has anointed to run his Kingdom on Earth. Of course you've got a rather large if there considering how broad the scripture you quote can be taken.

[pam]

The senior missionary couple in my town in the Philippines have a maid. Most families from lower middle class to super rich have maids. They have maids because they don't have washer/dryers, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, and all the thinga-magicks that are normal American household appliances. If they don't have a maid, they will be spending most of their day everyday doing nothing else but handwashing their laundry, washing dishes, dusting and sweeping (no central A/C which means windows are always open which means dust from the unpaved areas which are always present in neighborhoods fly easily to your house), buying groceries from the market (refrigerators come in small sizes there, even eggs and milk are not refrigerated.), burning their trash, cutting and weeding the yard (no lawnmowers either - you use this ginormous scissors thingee and a scythe), picking up the mail from the town center, etc. etc.

I'm glad the Church don't put out that info. That kind of info is just one more fodder for contention for those with weak testimonies or those without one.

If you don't trust your leaders, you simply raise your hand to oppose when they ask for the yearly sustaining vote.

You mentioned senior missionary couple and not mission president and his wife. Many things are different for senior missionary couples. They don't receive any kind of stipend like a mission president would. They pay for their entire mission. Including their housing and transportation and all other expenses. Not just $400 like the single elders and sisters. If they choose to spend money on a maid that is their decision.

Let me say one more thing to clarify. If a senior single sister goes on a mission she is also required to pay for full mission and all expenses. I was just talking last week to a lady who is leaving next month to go on a mission. Her husband passed away last year. She will be entering the MTC on the 1 year anniversary of her husband's death. But she was telling me she has to pay the entire thing and isn't subsidized like the "younger" single elders and sisters.

Edited September 12, 2013 by pam

[Just_A_Guy]

If the funds are the Lord's is it okay if they are used for other reasons than prescribed in the Doctrine and Covenants?

See D&C 120.

Tithes are to be spent by a council consisting of:

1. the First Presidency;

2. the "bishop and his council" (Presiding Bishopric);

3. "my high council" (in modern times, the Quorum of the Twelve; though admittedly it probably didn't mean that in 1838);

4. "mine own voice unto them".

Three observations from all this:

a) D&C 120 supersedes earlier counsel to the United Firm in D&C 104 that monies were to be allocated as per the "common consent" of those involved. So, there is a scriptural basis for taking Church finances out of the hands of the membership-at-large (even though the Church was publishing its financials over a century later);

b) If the voice of the Lord gives the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes authorization/instruction to spend money on something outside the purview of D&C 119--does the Council have authorization to do that, or are they bound by the text of D&C 119? I would argue that the voice of the Lord (provided that it really is the voice of the Lord) takes precedence.

c) D&C 119 allows tithing to be used for the "debts of the First Presidency", but it doesn't say what the First Presidency can incur debt for. So arguably, Section 119 is no constraint at all--it could be read as giving the First Presidency carte blanche to spend tithes as they deem fit, and then mandating that the full Council makes good on those debts.

[lds2]

I understand the frustration of being "poor" and overall it is just plain hard! wondering when those "windows" will open and start pouring financial blessings? I believe blessings come for the faithful, but if these blessings don't materialize how we want (money, health, friends, etc.) we can get just plain angry at God. Then it doesn't take long to find something or someone in the Church to become offended with.

But I wonder, how well I would do if being truly "dirt poor" was my "test?" For most of us it never has been. Yet we have been told by prophets that a future "test is coming" and that "difficult days lay ahead." President Hinckley warned of calamities and of a possible depression. Elder Bednar recently talked of an "adventure."

If something dramatic happened that changed our lifestyle how many could/would stay faithful if they lost their job, home, cars, and/or were often hungry? Could you be faithful in a tent or dirt floor shelter or if you only had one small meal a day like billions of other people in our world?

I was just wondering how poor I would have to become before I might feel this bitterness as well? where I might look for reasons to leave the Church? I don't know and I don't want to find out!!! but it would be a very difficult test for me and perhaps moreso for my children and their children.

.

Edited September 12, 2013 by lds2

[gem2477]

AngelMarvel shared how it is used but I suspect you want a detailed analysis of every penny spent put out into the public domain?

You seem to want to justify wanting such detailed information two ways.

First the church asks you if you are a full tithe payer so you feel that you are entitled to know how it is spent (in detail since you already know in general) However in my experience the tithing question is a simple yes/no they don't ask for details... In return I see generally were it is spent (the things listed aren't cheap) and also every year in general conference we hear from the Church auditors. They do track every penny they know what is going on with the church finances... And like me in tithing settlement they give us a brief yes/no answer on if the tithing is being spent according to the revelations from the Lord on the subject and according to best financial practices.. Seems more then a fair return on how they ask me to explain my tithing.

You next point is about corruption... and you are quite right that there could be some because they are all human. At the low levels could some one embezzle church funds? Well they could try, but the church does audit the records and follows best financial practices. Which means a the low level they are at about as much risk as any large organization that has its finances in order. This seems unavoidable but they church does all it can to stop it and that is good enough for me. Then there is the possibility of corruption at the top. At our top we have the 1st Presidency and the quorum of the 12. That is 15 men that have dedicated their lives to building up the kingdom of God. 15 men that left behind the wealth they could have gotten legitimately in the private sector. 15 men that we can truly expect to fear god more then men because they have repeatedly acted in that manner. I feel much more confident in them and their checks on each other then I do any CEO or others officer of major corporations

Finally understand that paying tithing does not make you a shareholder in the church. Tithing is paid because we have faith that God commands us to. If God commanded us to sacrifice our tithing on an altar of fire, where we watched it get destroyed, those with faith would still do so. But that is not the command. Instead we get to help the work of the Lord roll forth in some very tangible ways, buildings, temples, missionary work, family history work, etc

oh, yeah - the prophet is a CEO. Forgot to mention that.

[Just_A_Guy]

Not quite; he's a corporation sole.

[gem2477]

What evidence do you have to support your suspicions that it is not?

That's my point - nobody knows except those who work closest with the General Authorities.

[gem2477]

Not quite; he's a corporation sole.

President then?

[gem2477]

You mentioned senior missionary couple and not mission president and his wife. Many things are different for senior missionary couples. They don't receive any kind of stipend like a mission president would. They pay for their entire mission. Including their housing and transportation and all other expenses. Not just $400 like the single elders and sisters. If they choose to spend money on a maid that is their decision.

Let me say one more thing to clarify. If a senior single sister goes on a mission she is also required to pay for full mission and all expenses. I was just talking last week to a lady who is leaving next month to go on a mission. Her husband passed away last year. She will be entering the MTC on the 1 year anniversary of her husband's death. But she was telling me she has to pay the entire thing and isn't subsidized like the "younger" single elders and sisters.

Yes, senior missionary couple have a different standard, if they want a maid, so be it if it is from their own pockets.

No, I actually have seen the list of stipends the church gives Mission Presidents. One of them is for a maid.

Edited September 12, 2013 by gem2477

[gem2477]

This line of thinking is increbibly tenacious. Folks of this mindset, upon getting the information they desire, invariably discover all sorts of expenditures with which they strongly and vocally disagree.

I remember after Mother Theresea died - I didn't know much about her, so I was researching. I looked up criticisms levelled against her, and found many akin to gem's. They were ticked off at how she used her sway with world leaders, griping about how she should have done more in this area, or not focused on that area so much. The dear lady left behind worldly posessions of a bucket, a pair of glasses, a pair of shoes, and two simple coverings - but people were still accusing her of being a sellout, a dupe, a willing conspirator to the evils of the world.

Hey Gem - some of our tithing went to refurbish a few chairs at some temple. The total bill was in the thousands of dollars. Do you wish to opine about the expenditure?

No, refurbishment of chairs in a temple would be acceptable, of course.

[gem2477]

To put it perhaps a little more delicately than Eowyn did:

If I don't believe the Church leadership are what they say they are in the absence of complete financial disclosure, then the presence thereof isn't going to convince me, either. We're talking about (by the best estimates from ten years ago) a $30 billion institution with annual tithing revenues well above $6 million. There will always be something to second-guess. Always.

I mean, take the maid-for-a-mission-president example you cite. What if the mission president was in a low-paid profession before he was called, and can barely cover his own living expenses? What if his wife is a quadriplegic, and the mission president can't keep house because he's at the mission office for fourteen hours per day? Is the use of a maid still a sign of corruption? How do you incorporate the fulness of that situation into a single line-item in a multi-million-dollar budget? At the end of the day, carpers gonna carp.

It's hard to wrap our 21st-century-western minds around it; but the fact is that the LDS Church is not a democracy. It is a kingdom.

Of course, needs can be furnished for a Mission President who wouldn't be able to live otherwise since he is called to serve.

A wife who is a quad would be a rare situation - one that I would think the prospective Mission Presidents would decline the calling in order to care for her and make sure she has medical care. I don't think there are many situations where a maid would be a needful expense, especially when missionaries are having to do without hot water, air conditioning when it is 115 F outside....

[Dravin]

President then?

Corporation sole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest]

You mentioned senior missionary couple and not mission president and his wife. Many things are different for senior missionary couples. They don't receive any kind of stipend like a mission president would. They pay for their entire mission. Including their housing and transportation and all other expenses. Not just $400 like the single elders and sisters. If they choose to spend money on a maid that is their decision.

Let me say one more thing to clarify. If a senior single sister goes on a mission she is also required to pay for full mission and all expenses. I was just talking last week to a lady who is leaving next month to go on a mission. Her husband passed away last year. She will be entering the MTC on the 1 year anniversary of her husband's death. But she was telling me she has to pay the entire thing and isn't subsidized like the "younger" single elders and sisters.

The mission president has 2 maids. The mother is paid, the daughter helps (I don't know if she's also paid). The maids also help with the area missionaries. Now, I don't know if the church is paying for the maids or if the ward members donate the maids.

In the Philippines, if you're working outside the home, you need a maid. You're basically facing 2 choices - attend to your job or do your laundry. There's no machine that can do it for you.

Edited September 12, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

Of course, needs can be furnished for a Mission President who wouldn't be able to live otherwise since he is called to serve.

A wife who is a quad would be a rare situation - one that I would think the prospective Mission Presidents would decline the calling in order to care for her and make sure she has medical care. I don't think there are many situations where a maid would be a needful expense, especially when missionaries are having to do without hot water, air conditioning when it is 115 F outside....

Okay, you are confusing me. Are we talking about USA or some other country?

[mnn727]

No matter what the Church published about its finances, some people wouldn't like it.

There is really a simple solution to this. If you don't trust the leaders of the Church to spend tithing the way you believe it should be spent, then by all means, don't pay it.

The Church will continue on just fine, but you will not receive the blessings that come from paying tithing.

[Just_A_Guy]

Of course, needs can be furnished for a Mission President who wouldn't be able to live otherwise since he is called to serve.

A wife who is a quad would be a rare situation - one that I would think the prospective Mission Presidents would decline the calling in order to care for her and make sure she has medical care. I don't think there are many situations where a maid would be a needful expense, especially when missionaries are having to do without hot water, air conditioning when it is 115 F outside....

But that's just it. Who are any of us to second-guess that? If I make a statement like that, then suddenly not only am I--as a member--trying to decide where the money goes; but I'm trying to tell the leadership who should and who shouldn't be given particular callings.

A $150/month line item in a multi-billion-dollar annual budget, three-hundred-odd mission presidents, two-thousand-odd stake presidents, thirty-thousand-odd-bishops . . . and fourteen million members who demand a say in any/all of those choices. Where does it end?

It's just not a good road to be going down. Mistrust begets mistrust.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Finrock]

Good afternoon gem2477. I hope you are doing well today! :)

No, refurbishment of chairs in a temple would be acceptable, of course.

The commentors on this forum are trying to assuage your concerns not necessarily provide justification for how the Church uses tithing money. In reality you have no right to know how the money is used. It isn't your money. It appears from the content of your posts that you don't like this answer or you don't believe it.

In the end, if you are unwilling to live with the reality that the President of the Church is the steward of tithing and it is the President's prerogative as to how tithing is spent/reported, etc., then God will not force you to do that. You can choose to not pay tithing. However, understand that your disbelief doesn't alter reality and you will be robbing God of His money.

Regard,

Finrock

[gem2477]

Okay, you are confusing me. Are we talking about USA or some other country?

some other country -- of course a missionary in the US is probably going to to have AC / Hot water

[gem2477]

Good afternoon gem2477. I hope you are doing well today! :)

The commentors on this forum are trying to assuage your concerns not necessarily provide justification for how the Church uses tithing money. In reality you have no right to know how the money is used. It isn't your money. It appears from the content of your posts that you don't like this answer or you don't believe it.

In the end, if you are unwilling to live with the reality that the President of the Church is the steward of tithing and it is the President's prerogative as to how tithing is spent/reported, etc., then God will not force you to do that. You can choose to not pay tithing. However, understand that your disbelief doesn't alter reality and you will be robbing God of His money.

Regard,

Finrock

I think I do have a right to know that it isn't being mismanaged, funneled into some other account to make it look like the church didn't use tithing funds for certain things, laundered, giving GAs and other church workers free access to as much as they want without checks/balances to buy things that would be considered opulent or to have free use of church services, or using it to fund one of their many, many business ventures and investments. That sort of thing.

We can agree to disagree, though.

[gem2477]

But that's just it. Who are any of us to second-guess that? If I make a statement like that, then suddenly not only am I--as a member--trying to decide where the money goes; but I'm trying to tell the leadership who should and who shouldn't be given particular callings.

A $150/month line item in a multi-billion-dollar annual budget, three-hundred-odd mission presidents, two-thousand-odd stake presidents, thirty-thousand-odd-bishops . . . and fourteen million members who demand a say in any/all of those choices. Where does it end?

It's just not a good road to be going down. Mistrust begets mistrust.

well, why shouldn't us as members have more control of the money we pay into? What is the reasoning that Salt Lake be given complete control? It's okay to have a say and not leave it up to blind trust of leaders, sometimes.

[Dravin]

well, why shouldn't us as members have more control of the money we pay into?

Why shouldn't I have more control over the money I give you for your birthday? It's not your money anymore, it's the Lords. And guess who he has put in charge of his money? It's not you or I.

What is the reasoning that Salt Lake be given complete control?

Stewardship.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Dravin