Are Anti-mormons Christian?

[Snow]

Certain evangelical type Christians spend a lot of time talking about and selling the idea that Mormons are not Christian. Outside of their "select" group, most people, I think, find their activities as distasteful as do the targets of the venom, the Mormons. Their argument turns on a very simple point. Namely Christ favors and agrees with their own particular interpretation of the Bible, and Christ, despite the Bible's claim to the contrary, rejects those who acknowledge him, accept him as their Savior, repent and follow him, if they don't interpret the Bible the way that the anti-Mormons say they should

Should the tables be turned. Is the anti-Mormons who are unChristian. Personally I don't know. No matter what anybody (who does not speak for and on behalf of God via revelation) says, only Christ knows who he accepts and who he may not. However I want to begin a discussion, anyone else willing, to explore whether anti-Mormons act Christianly. To begin with, there are a couple of ways that they do not:

1. Although Christ condemned the Pharisees, the anti-Mormons act themselves as Pharisees and try to determine who is saved and who is not.

2. Despite the express commandment to judge not unrighteously, they do if fact judge something they have no idea about - another's salvation.

3. It judging unrighteously as did the Pharisees, they falsely represent the the LDS position and self-understanding. For example as a recent college lecture I attended, one evangelical asked the speaker, "What about the Mormons claim that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to cover their sins?" Any Mormon instantly recognizes the dishonesty inherrent in such a question.

4.Some evangelical type anti-Mormons accept the non-Biblical Nicene Creed as a basis for determining who is Christian. First, an appeal is made to a non-Bible code, second the code was heavily influence by pagan Hellenistic philosophy and came into being by the sponsership of a mass-murderer and serial killer Constantine.

...please discuss amongst yourselves...

[Jenifer]

I've discussed this with myself....now what?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenifer@Mar 22 2004, 09:57 PM

I've discussed this with myself....now what?

Now rotate and baste.

[Guest Starsky]

LOL.

[Lindy]

2. Despite the express commandment to judge not unrighteously, they do if fact judge something they have no idea about - another's salvation.

I really had a problem accepting someone else's judgement on my salvation, since I work with a diverse group of people, we discuss religion here and there...and NOBODY judges me like I have been judged by an anti mormon. There are some, who I believe have been manlipulated and "brain washed", so to speak, to the point where they actually believe what they are thinking and saying. Kind of like cronic liars who say things so often, that they really believe what they say is true. ( I lived with one of those)

Not saying that anti's are liars....Some have found problems with the church, and are willing to share their findings and feelings....I have no problem with those who are against the faith, and act civil. In fact, I have found some great people who fit into that catagory. But again, There are some, who hurt and tear down the LDS faith.....who I believe have been manlipulated and "brain washed", so to speak, to the point where they actually believe what they are thinking and saying. There are those who show a great deal of concern about the spiritual well being of the mormon soul. I understand them, to a point, their willingness to judge in order to try to save a soul, and I can't blame them for their compassion and love for others to want to "save"others from hell. But at the same time....To those that judge unrightously, the salvation of another, because of "outright spiritual concern", I think that Christ will judge them (the anti's) accordingly. I just don't wish to be in their shoes when the time comes to "reap what you sow".

To try to destroy someone's faith, or turn them away from their Lord is wrong in my book. And I think that the Lord may agree with me

[AFDaw]

I think there are several types of Anti's. As I stated in another thread, I grew up in a very anti-Mormon community. Anti-Mormon rallies were a common place thing. I had a guy break up with me in high school because "My parents won't let me date a non-Christian" I said "You don't think I'm a Christian?" he said he didn't know what to believe.

I felt sorry for him because I can understand why he thinks the way he does. Can you imagine being told your entire life that Mormon's aren't Christian by your preacher and your parents? Now all of a sudden you meet one who says they are Christian. If he accepts what I say to be true, then that means his preacher is wrong. And if he has to accept his preacher is wrong about that, what else is his preacher wrong about? I could see how that is a threatening position. Forutnately, I don't have to worry about being in his shoes.

I consider this guy Anti because he refuses to accept my word about what I believe in. (I say I'm Christian, he says I'm not) But I still think he's a Christian, just mis-informed. Now, his pastor, who funded and held all these Anti-Mormon rallies, who often preached against Mormon's in his sunday sermon, I don't think that's Christian at all.

[Rodney]

Are Anti-mormons Christian?

That would be impossible, right?

Makes me wonder though: Are Anti-anti-mormons Christian?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney@Mar 23 2004, 07:43 AM

Makes me wonder though: Are Anti-anti-mormons Christian?

Good question...

[srm]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 07:38 AM

I think there are several types of Anti's. As I stated in another thread, I grew up in a very anti-Mormon community. Anti-Mormon rallies were a common place thing. I had a guy break up with me in high school because "My parents won't let me date a non-Christian" I said "You don't think I'm a Christian?" he said he didn't know what to believe.

I felt sorry for him because I can understand why he thinks the way he does. Can you imagine being told your entire life that Mormon's aren't Christian by your preacher and your parents? Now all of a sudden you meet one who says they are Christian. If he accepts what I say to be true, then that means his preacher is wrong. And if he has to accept his preacher is wrong about that, what else is his preacher wrong about? I could see how that is a threatening position. Forutnately, I don't have to worry about being in his shoes.

I consider this guy Anti because he refuses to accept my word about what I believe in. (I say I'm Christian, he says I'm not) But I still think he's a Christian, just mis-informed. Now, his pastor, who funded and held all these Anti-Mormon rallies, who often preached against Mormon's in his sunday sermon, I don't think that's Christian at all.

Another interesting twost to this type of story. All their live they have been told that Mormons aren't Christian...then they meet one and observe their behavior. I was in a world religions class. A young man raised his hand and said, 'we all know that Mormons aren't Christian." His problem was that he had been taken in and lived with a morman family. he continued, "...they were the most christian family (based on actions and behavior) that he had ever know." He was not able to make it all fit in his world view.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by srm+Mar 23 2004, 09:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 23 2004, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 07:38 AM

I think there are several types of Anti's.  As I stated in another thread, I grew up in a very anti-Mormon community.  Anti-Mormon rallies were a common place thing.  I had a guy break up with me in high school because "My parents won't let me date a non-Christian"  I said "You don't think I'm a Christian?" he said he didn't know what to believe. 

I felt sorry for him because I can understand why he thinks the way he does.  Can you imagine being told your entire life that Mormon's aren't Christian by your preacher and your parents?  Now all of a sudden you meet one who says they are Christian.  If he accepts what I say to be true, then that means his preacher is wrong.  And if he has to accept his preacher is wrong about that, what else is his preacher wrong about?  I could see how that is a threatening position.  Forutnately, I don't have to worry about being in his shoes.

I consider this guy Anti because he refuses to accept my word about what I believe in. (I say I'm Christian, he says I'm not) But I still think he's a Christian, just mis-informed.  Now, his pastor, who funded and held all these Anti-Mormon rallies, who often preached against Mormon's in his sunday sermon, I don't think that's Christian at all.

Another interesting twost to this type of story. All their live they have been told that Mormons aren't Christian...then they meet one and observe their behavior. I was in a world religions class. A young man raised his hand and said, 'we all know that Mormons aren't Christian." His problem was that he had been taken in and lived with a morman family. he continued, "...they were the most christian family (based on actions and behavior) that he had ever know." He was not able to make it all fit in his world view.

This reminds me of something else that happened :)

While I was defending my faith in lunch periods, this one guy told me I was going to hell for portraying a Christian. No sweat off my back what his opinion is, nor did I care to try to change his mind since it seems it was already made up. We actually had 2 classes together, and since our last names were so close, we sat near each other (our teacher assigned seats alphabetically) and I just continued on with him as I always did. I never changed my behavior, my manner of speech, I never worried about trying to "convince" him I was Christian. Then during the last week of school he said "You really are a Christian aren't you?" and I said "Yes" and he said "I see that now."

I think the same thing happened to him that you mention. He was told we weren't, took that at face value, met me and realized he was told wrong.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Rodney@Mar 23 2004, 07:43 AM

Makes me wonder though: Are Anti-anti-mormons Christian?

By my definition it would be just as wrong for me to tell another person what they do and don't believe in as it would be for them to do it to me. So again, by my definition of what an anti is, I would say that no, their behavior is not Christianlike.

(btw...I never said anti's weren't Christian, just their actions aren't)

[porterrockwell]

I tend to put it into this perspective. You have the Ed Deckers of the world, sensationalists...plain as that. Then you have the Tanners of the world. Who while taking a more grounded, educated approach use that same route to construct well thought out strawmen as they do to knock them down.

I remember reading an article about several very discrete errors in the Shadow or Reality book they wrote. Of course this would make their whole "argument" against mormonsim totally bunk and unfounded. When confronted about these errors and the judgement made against the church based on them, Jerald's only answer was "It doesn't matter, the point is Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God!" Hmmm...what is sad, is that a great deal of people who claimed to be "Mainstream Christians" on CF, were using many of these tactics to implore their ability to refute our belief.

That is what Anti is. Also, we KNOW we have the truth. If you feel we are being smug, then fine. However, we are not a VIP club that only lets certain individuals in. On the contrary, we have no respect of persons policy. It's just hard to be in a world where we are expected not to PROCLAIM the truth. Because if we do, or show our exuberance for possessing the truth we are considered smug, sef-righteous, pompous....and the list goes on. When all we wanna do is include people and help people find the truth. How many churches send out as many missionaries as we do. Don't forget, we pay money to do it. How is that smug? We also believe that we are hear in this probationary state to recieve a remission of our sins through accepting Jesus Christ, and to become as our Father in Heaven, in the same way he is glorified.

We should all want to be like Christ, was Christ smug? We aren't judging others exaltation. But we have the truth and we want people to know what the Lord expects of him/her. IF you are feeling that we are judgemental, that is probably your OTHER brother whispering in your ear because he knows just how powerful the TRUE message of Christ is.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 11:52 AM

(btw...I never said anti's weren't Christian, just their actions aren't)

Is there a more apt method of defining a person than by their actions?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Rodney+Mar 23 2004, 12:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Mar 23 2004, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 11:52 AM

(btw...I never said anti's weren't Christian, just their actions aren't)

Is there a more apt method of defining a person than by their actions?

That's a very good point. But what is the ultimate definition of a Christian? It's not someone who act's Christ like. They should act Christ like because they are a Christian.

[Guest Starsky]

I don't believe that anyone who spends their whole lives trying to discredit someone elses lives/beliefs/church/leaders....is really worth the time to know.

Christ said...pray for your enemies...do good for those who despitefully use you....turn the other cheek....these people like the Tanners...have done none of the above....

They have not agreed with whom they perceived to be their enemies...they have not prayed for the church or it's leaders...

Their lives have been wasted away in fighting against something...instead of building up something... That speaks volumes as to what quality of people they are....and if they don't follow the teachings of Christ...can they claim to be Christians?

[Rodney]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Mar 23 2004, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Mar 23 2004, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Rodney@Mar 23 2004, 12:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 11:52 AM

(btw...I never said anti's weren't Christian, just their actions aren't)

Is there a more apt method of defining a person than by their actions?

That's a very good point. But what is the ultimate definition of a Christian? It's not someone who act's Christ like. They should act Christ like because they are a Christian.

Am I not allowed to act "Christ like" if I'm not a Christian?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 23 2004, 12:44 PM

I don't believe that anyone who spends their whole lives trying to discredit someone elses lives/beliefs/church/leaders....is really worth the time to know.

Christ said...pray for your enemies...do good for those who despitefully use you....turn the other cheek....these people like the Tanners...have done none of the above....

They have not agreed with whom they perceived to be their enemies...they have not prayed for the church or it's leaders...

Their lives have been wasted away in fighting against something...instead of building up something... That speaks volumes as to what quality of people they are....and if they don't follow the teachings of Christ...can they claim to be Christians?

When you believe that all you have to do is acknowledge Christ as your savior, and that your actions don't matter, then yes, they can do whatever they want and claim to be Christian. But when you believe that works are important also, then I could see how it could be a greyish area. But again, ultimately don't they claim to believe in Christ? Don't they claim that he is their savior and so forth and so on? I believe they're Christian, but it's a sad un-Christian like life they had led. You are right, they should "do" and "act" like the Christians they claim to be.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Rodney+Mar 23 2004, 12:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Mar 23 2004, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by -Rodney@Mar 23 2004, 12:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 11:52 AM

(btw...I never said anti's weren't Christian, just their actions aren't)

Is there a more apt method of defining a person than by their actions?

That's a very good point. But what is the ultimate definition of a Christian? It's not someone who act's Christ like. They should act Christ like because they are a Christian.

Am I not allowed to act "Christ like" if I'm not a Christian?

You can act however you want while believing whatever you chose. IN fact, I almost posted in that post that I've known an athiest who acts very Christ like. But I chose not to :)

[Rodney]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 01:50 PM

You can act however you want while believing whatever you chose.

Golly, thanks!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney+Mar 23 2004, 01:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Mar 23 2004, 01:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 01:50 PM

You can act however you want while believing whatever you chose.

Golly, thanks!

LOL...

AFDaw you make a very good point in your post about even athiest can have christian behavior...

[Tr2]

Namely Christ favors and agrees with their own particular interpretation of the Bible, and Christ, despite the Bible's claim to the contrary, rejects those who acknowledge him, accept him as their Savior, repent and follow him, if they don't interpret the Bible the way that the anti-Mormons say they should

What I have learned over the years is that the word "interpret" is often used by those who are trying to get around an issue in the bible. The basic principles of salvation do not require any interpretation because they are very straight forward. The biblical idea of salvation is a very simple to understand at face value. You use the word "interpretation" to imply that something hidden is present. You are trying to search for something that is staring you in the face.

When somebody says, "water is wet" there is not interpretation needed for the point they were trying to make.

1. Although Christ condemned the Pharisees, the anti-Mormons act themselves as Pharisees and try to determine who is saved and who is not.

It is not that cut and dry. There are many other issues why Jesus condemned the Pharisees.

2. Despite the express commandment to judge not unrighteously, they do if fact judge something they have no idea about - another's salvation.

Stating the obvious is not the judgment that Jesus warned people about. Jesus said that unless people go through Him they will not go to heaven. The fruit of the mormon church does not suggest that Jesus is the focus on the LDS church.

"What about the Mormons claim that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to cover their sins?" Any Mormon instantly recognizes the dishonesty inherrent in such a question.

Dishonesty? I have heard numerous mormons tell me that they are saved by grace AFTER all they have done. The bible directly says that we are saved by God's grace, mormonism suggests that God's grace alone is insufficient. If God's grace was sufficient, then why would works be required?

4.Some evangelical type anti-Mormons accept the non-Biblical Nicene Creed as a basis for determining who is Christian. First, an appeal is made to a non-Bible code, second the code was heavily influence by pagan Hellenistic philosophy and came into being by the sponsership of a mass-murderer and serial killer Constantine.

Unbiblical? How so? If you mean because those exact words don't appear in the bible, that is true. However there are fewer creeds out there that better represent the core values of the bible.

Pagan? You like that word don't you? The Nicene creed was meant to make the Christian church distinct from other pagan belief systems at that time in history. People were calling themselves Christians but utilizing a completely different belief system(kind of like what the mormons do) and the creed was meant to draw a boundary line. Were pagans involved? Yes, but not in the way you've tried to suggest.

Don't quit your day job.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

If I were a Catholic, Orthodox, or old-line Protestant, I think I would have to say that Mormons are Christians who hold several heretical beliefs.

[Guest Starsky]

...that Mormons are Christians who hold several heretical beliefs.

What, for instance....?

[serapha]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 23 2004, 11:52 AM

(btw...I never said anti's weren't Christian, just their actions aren't)

Is there a more apt method of defining a person than by their actions?

Hello et. al.,

If an "anti-mormon" is saved, then they are a Christian. If an "anti-mormon" is not saved, then they are not a Christian.

Let me draw my sword and hatchet all those comments that indicate that being a Christian is based upon "actions". It's a two-edged sword, so it swings in both directions.... cleans house quicker that way.

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

~serapha~

[Maureen]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 23 2004, 04:25 PM

If I were a Catholic, Orthodox, or old-line Protestant, I think I would have to say that Mormons are Christians who hold several heretical beliefs.

I think that's the perfect description. I couldn't agree more.

M.