Are Anti-mormons Christian?

[srm]

Dishonesty? I have heard numerous mormons tell me that they are saved by grace AFTER all they have done. The bible directly says that we are saved by God's grace, mormonism suggests that God's grace alone is insufficient. If God's grace was sufficient, then why would works be required?

here are a few New Testament verses that do say that works are needed.

Matt. 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

2 Tim. 4: 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works

James 2: 21-24

21 Was not Abraham our father justified•by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by aworks was faith made perfect?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is bjustified, and not by faith only.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

QUOTE=Peace,Mar 23 2004, 04:57 PM] ...that Mormons are Christians who hold several heretical beliefs.

What, for instance....?

For example, our rejection of the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds (although we apparently accept the ancient Apostles' Creed); our non-consubstantial understanding of the Trinity; our belief in an open scriptural canon; our acceptance of ancient scriptures not recognized by other churches; our belief in eternal marriage; our belief in exaltation (although some other churches, particularly the Orthodox, get pretty close to us); eternal progression; premortal existence; ordinances for the dead, and temple ordinances.

That's about all I can think of. Of course, the Church in the past added some more potential "heresies," including plural marriage and all the old odd doctrines that we argue endlessly over whether they were actually official doctrines or not (Adam/God, racial doctrines, the imminent establishment of the political Kingdom of God on earth, "blood atonement," the old temple ritual, etc. But I don't count those. Otherwise, we'd have to count all the skeletons in other religions' closets, too.

Mind, I'm not saying these doctrines are actual heresies. To the faithful Church member, they're the true gospel. They're only heresies from the perspective of people who think the true gospel is something else.

[Tr2]

SRM,

Matt. 16: 27, 2 Tim. 4: 14, Rev. 20: 12, and James 2: 21-24 do not even hint at the fact that works lead man to salvation, or heaven, or anything else of that nature. Each one of them is in the context of living a better life on earth. They are in the context of man's soul (which is your mind, will, emotions, personality). Salvation and going to heaven is in the context of the spirit (the one that is born anew when we receive Jesus). 2 Cor 7:1 draws a distinction between them. If you are going to use these scriptures, at least understand what they mean.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM

SRM,

Matt. 16: 27, 2 Tim. 4: 14, Rev. 20: 12, and James 2: 21-24 do not even hint at the fact that works lead man to salvation,

Well yes they do Trident. You are just interpreting them to mean that they don't.

You earlier claimed, mistakenly, that there were no scriptures that talked about works and their necessity for salvation. You kinda ignored the ones I posted and now continue to act like they don't exist. Let try to not pick and choose what parts of believe and what to ignore. K.

Diligence, patience, and enduring to the end is required to ensure our salvation:

2 Peter 1:4-10; 2 Peter 3:14-18; Heb. 12:1,7,14,15; Heb. 10:36; James 1:12; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:7,10,11; Col. 1:22-29; James 5:7-12; 1 John 2:24-25.

Why? Rom. 8:16-18; Rev. 3:19-21; Rev. 21:7; Heb.12:9,10; Acts 17:28,29

The words of Christ himself:

His teachings show that obedience is required to obtain eternal life; there is no hint of "once saved, always saved" or instant salvation without works:

Matt. 19: 16-23 (point blank: to obtain eternal life, keep the commandments); see also Mark 10:17-30; Luke 18:18-30

Luke 10:25-28 (again: keep the commandments to be saved)

Mark 12: 28-34 (Christ teaches the two greatest commandments, and tells one who understands them that he is "not far from the kingdom of God")

Luke 11:28 (blessed are they that DO the word of God)

Sermon on the Mount

Matt. chapters 5 to 7 (focuses on works, behavior)

Matt. 5:19-21 (must keep commandments)

Matt 5:48 (must seek to be perfect)

Matt. 7:13,14 (the gate is straight and narrow)

Matt. 7:21-23 (Must DO God's will; Christians who did evil will not go to heaven)

Matt. 7:24-28 (those who do what Christ says are built on a sure foundation)

Matt. 24:13 (endure to the end to be saved) - see also Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13

Matt. 12:35-37 (will be judged by our words, to be condemned or justified)

Matt. 16:24-27 (we'll be judged by our works)

John 8:31-32 (we must continue in the word of Christ)

Luke 21:19 (patience is required to preserve our souls)

Luke 21:34-36 (be cautious, avoid sin, to be counted worthy to stand before God)

Mark 11:25-26 (we must forgive others to be forgiven ourselves)

John 5: 28,29 (those that do good obtain life)

John 14:15,21,23 (Christ teaches us to keep his commandments)

John 15: 1-14 (we must bear fruit, keep commandments)

Matt. 13:3-23 (parable of the sower: He warns that some receive the word and believe, but do not endure: will they be in God's kingdom? See Luke 9:24-26)

Matt. 12:50 (must do his will to have a close relationship with Christ)

Matt. 13:40-43 (parable of the tares: those in his kingdom who do evil are damned)

John 12:50 (The Father's commandment is life everlasting)

See also Luke 21: 19,34-36; Matt. 25 (esp. v. 31-46); John 3:5

Judged by works:

Rom. 2: 4-11; Rev. 20: 12-15; Matt. 16:27; Gal. 6: 7-9; Rev. 22:12-14; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Col. 3:24-25; John 5:28,29; Eccl. 12:13,14; 1 Peter 1:17; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Rev. 2:23; 1 Peter 4:17-19.

Repentance and obedience are required for salvation:

Acts 2:37-38; Matt. 4:17; Acts 17:30,31; 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Cor. 7:9-11; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9,20-27,30-32; Ezekiel 33:11-20; Acts 26:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 24:47; Heb. 5:8,9; Rom. 2: 4-11; Prov. 4:4; Prov. 19:16; Deut. 6:17; Eccl. 12:13,14; Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3; 1 Sam. 15:22; Jerem. 7:23; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; Exo. 19:5; Deut. 29:9-15; John 7:17; Rom. 6:16; James 4:6-10; 2 Thess. 1:4-9; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; Matt. 5:48; Lev. 11:45; Lev. 19:2; Lev. 20:7,26; Matt. 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5,19-21; Joel 2:12,13; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; 2 Cor. 7:15; Phil. 2:8.

Saved by Grace - but we access that Grace by obedience:

Eph. 2:8; Rev. 22:12-14; Philippians 3:12-14; Heb. 5:8,9; Exodus 20:6; James 4:6-10; Matt. 5:7; 1 Peter 1:13-22.

We must do, not just believe:

James, Chapters 1 and 2; 1 John 3:18,19; Matt. 7:21-27; Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Titus 2; 1 Peter 1:22; Matt. 12:50; 1 Tim. 6:17-19.

Christians can fall from grace, so be cautious:

Heb. 12:15; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Pet. 1:4-10; Heb. 3: 12-14; Heb. 4:1,11; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 21:34-36; Phil. 2:12; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-31; 2 Cor. 6:1; Jude 1:3-13; Col. 1:23; James 5:12,19,20.

Sin can keep you out of heaven:

1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-26; Eph. 5:3-7; 1 Thess. 4:1-7; Col. 3:5-25; Jude 1:14-25; Heb. 12:1-17; James 4:4; Matt. 5:22; Matt. 25: 31-46; Ezek. 18.

We must grow and progress through obedience to be saved:

2 Peter 1:3-10 (heavy!); 1 John 2:4,5; Phil. 3:12-15.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 23 2004, 04:10 PM

What I have learned over the years is that the word "interpret" is often used by those who are trying to get around an issue in the bible. The basic principles of salvation do not require any interpretation because they are very straight forward. The biblical idea of salvation is a very simple to understand at face value. You use the word "interpretation" to imply that something hidden is present. You are trying to search for something that is staring you in the face.

And yet Trident the vast majority of Christianity over the overwhelmingly vast majority of it's history has understood the doctrine of salvation differently than your "interpretation;" your "interpretation" is the minority view.

To prove that your opinion of what the Bible says is merely interpretation, I point out that the minute you start to explain it, you have abandoned the idea of sola scriptura and put your own spin on it.

2. Despite the express commandment to judge not unrighteously, they do if fact judge something they have no idea about - another's salvation.

Stating the obvious is not the judgment that Jesus warned people about. Jesus said that unless people go through Him they will not go to heaven. The fruit of the mormon church does not suggest that Jesus is the focus on the LDS church.

Even you Trident as well as our new friends for the other board acknowledge that whatever else he taught, Christ taught that salvation comes to those that accept Christ as their Savior and believe on him. Mormons do exactly what you say is required but you question the fruit? What fruit?

"What about the Mormons claim that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to cover their sins?" Any Mormon instantly recognizes the dishonesty inherrent in such a question.

Dishonesty? I have heard numerous mormons tell me that they are saved by grace AFTER all they have done. The bible directly says that we are saved by God's grace, mormonism suggests that God's grace alone is insufficient. If God's grace was sufficient, then why would works be required?

That is exactly what I mean by dishonest. (note: I am not making that claim that you are dishonest, but I sugges that after 3 plus years of posting here, you ought to know the LDS position better). The issue is not whether the atonement was sufficient or not. We believe that the atonement was absolutely sufficient to cover the sins of all humanity. For us the issue is that God also requires a good faith effort on our part - a good faith effort that of it's own accord merits nothing, it is a token. You disagree of course but it isn't fair or honest, now that you know better, to define our beliefs in a way that defies our own self-understanding.

Unbiblical? How so? If you mean because those exact words don't appear in the bible, that is true.

By unBiblical I mean that the concepts are not found explicitly in the Bible. Obviously, or else there would not be any need to say it. It is an INTERPRETATION and I think it is a very poor interpretation. Greek philosophers had taught that there was a supreme God, who was all-powerful, all-wise and perfect. There was only one being who could have all power, and therefore there was only one supreme God. Since perfection did not change, then God could not change. Such a god was not swayed by emotions, not or by physical things that change. The philosophy eventually wormed its way Christianity just as it had infiltrate and supplanted all other civilized cultures it touch . Greek philosophy adopted as a convenient tool for the gospel. Christians who had been criticized now claimed that they, like the sophisticated Greek philosophers believed in an invisible, omnipotent God - just like the Greeks. The Platonic influence on the Nicene creed is an accepted part of history Trident. Even the words used in the creeds are are nowhere to be found in the Bible, words like TRINITY, homoousious, cosubstantial, ungenerated, indivisible and on and on.

The funniest thing about the clowns (not you) at the other board, it that many of them are sola-scripturists yet required adherence to non-sola-scriptura creeds that contain ideas not found anywhere in the Bible.

Pagan? You like that word don't you?

It's a word. Is there something special about the word that you know that we don't

Don't quit your day job.

Whoops E Daisy. You were doing so well until you got all petty, petty officer Louis Tucker. Bring it on dear boy, bring it on.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 23 2004, 11:32 PM

By unBiblical I mean that the concepts are not found explicitly in the Bible. Obviously, or else there would not be any need to say it. It is an INTERPRETATION and I think it is a very poor interpretation. Greek philosophers had taught that there was a supreme God, who was all-powerful, all-wise and perfect. There was only one being who could have all power, and therefore there was only one supreme God. Since perfection did not change, then God could not change. Such a god was not swayed by emotions, not or by physical things that change. The philosophy eventually wormed its way Christianity just as it had infiltrate and supplanted all other civilized cultures it touch . Greek philosophy adopted as a convenient tool for the gospel. Christians who had been criticized now claimed that they, like the sophisticated Greek philosophers believed in an invisible, omnipotent God - just like the Greeks. The Platonic influence on the Nicene creed is an accepted part of history Trident. Even the words used in the creeds are are nowhere to be found in the Bible, words like TRINITY, homoousious, cosubstantial, ungenerated, indivisible and on and on.

The funniest thing about the clowns (not you) at the other board, it that many of them are sola-scripturists yet required adherence to non-sola-scriptura creeds that contain ideas not found anywhere in the Bible.

Amen Snow, I tried that same argument in the CF camp and I got blasted by flamage, conveniently nobody wanted to address the issue. Also, was not Constantine tied in with the Creed? I remember a very old painting of Constantine amid the various philosphers who developed it, and then one more of him presenting it to "God" for his blessing on the piece of garbage. Was it not Paul who preached against the UNKOWN GOD? How can one know God without becoming "familiar" with him? Can you take the derivitive of familiar, which is family, out of familiar and still know something that you are not likened unto. It is a confusing statement and I will elaborate if asked, but it is late and my bedtime is long past.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 23 2004, 10:55 PM

Also, was not Constantine tied in with the Creed?

Yes, he called and sponsered the council that adopted it. Constantine was at the time still a practicing pagan who worshipped the unconquered sun and even thought himself the personification of god. He was a cruel, ruthless, inhuman and evil man who murdered multiple members of his own family, among countless others. He assure unaminity in the creed by banishing all bishops that would not sign the new creed.

Don't think I am exagerating. It is a matter of historical fact.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM

SRM,

Matt. 16: 27, 2 Tim. 4: 14, Rev. 20: 12, and James 2: 21-24 do not even hint at the fact that works lead man to salvation, or heaven, or anything else of that nature. Each one of them is in the context of living a better life on earth. They are in the context of man's soul (which is your mind, will, emotions, personality). Salvation and going to heaven is in the context of the spirit (the one that is born anew when we receive Jesus). 2 Cor 7:1 draws a distinction between them. If you are going to use these scriptures, at least understand what they mean.

What about letting our light so shine that men will see our good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven...

Do we have to have a light literally shining out of our bodies??? LOL NO...it is works out of our pure hearts...that attract attention.

But if you do no works....what are they going to see and glorify our Father with? What does it mean when we are taught that faith without works is dead?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 23 2004, 07:42 PM

QUOTE=Peace,Mar 23 2004, 04:57 PM] ...that Mormons are Christians who hold several heretical beliefs.

What, for instance....?

For example, our rejection of the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds (although we apparently accept the ancient Apostles' Creed); our non-consubstantial understanding of the Trinity; our belief in an open scriptural canon; our acceptance of ancient scriptures not recognized by other churches; our belief in eternal marriage; our belief in exaltation (although some other churches, particularly the Orthodox, get pretty close to us); eternal progression; premortal existence; ordinances for the dead, and temple ordinances.

That's about all I can think of. Of course, the Church in the past added some more potential "heresies," including plural marriage and all the old odd doctrines that we argue endlessly over whether they were actually official doctrines or not (Adam/God, racial doctrines, the imminent establishment of the political Kingdom of God on earth, "blood atonement," the old temple ritual, etc. But I don't count those. Otherwise, we'd have to count all the skeletons in other religions' closets, too.

Mind, I'm not saying these doctrines are actual heresies. To the faithful Church member, they're the true gospel. They're only heresies from the perspective of people who think the true gospel is something else.

Wow...thanks PD...

That does give a very clear picture... :)

[Rodney]

Originally posted by serapha@Mar 23 2004, 06:29 PM

If an "anti-mormon" is saved, then they are a Christian.  If an "anti-mormon" is not saved, then they are not a Christian. 

Let me draw my sword and hatchet all those comments that indicate that being a Christian is based upon "actions".  It's a two-edged sword, so it swings in both directions.... cleans house quicker that way.

Eph 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Great!!! You're telling me that I don't gotta do nuttun to have "faith"? No prayun', no studyun', no nuttun, right? Faith just sorta happens--is that what I'm a-hearun' from ya? Great!!! I'm saved then and it doesn't really matter if I'm anti-mo, mo, or anti-anti-mo. Great!!! Think I'll go shoot myself now, or maybe I'll just "hatchet" myself to death.

[porterrockwell]

Um, Faith is from the heart bro. Faith MUST be longsuffering and patient. You aren't "saved" the minute you first develop faith. Where then is patience and longsuffering? Why then must we continue with a mortal probation? Don't buy it. ALL will be immortal, but not all will have Eternal Life and dwell with our Heavenly Father and be glorified in the same manner he is. What I found absolutely hilarious, is that we perform baptism as similtude of the Jesus Christ, likened unto him and his sacrifice. We partake of sacrament(catholic, mormon....etc.), likened unto him, yet we cannot become likened unto our Heavenly Father who sent him? Why then must we develop charity in our countenance? Mainstreamer Christianity is really sad!!!!!

It totally misses the point on life, I was watching Ermey(from full Metal Jacket) and Chevy Chase in a movie, and they are in this Televangelist chapel, and Ermey is preaching. Then he brings people out, and through an ear piece he is given information on those people to make it seem like he has a gift. After pronouncing their illness he hold's his hand up like Raiden or Sub Zero from Mortal Kombat, and then says something like, BE HEALED!! And slams his hand over the persons forehead as they fall back and two guys drag them off. That is so freakin sad, that is the spectacle that has become of MC.

Then Chevy Chase dresses up like a reverend on Ermey's characters "Guest Healer" night, and does the same thing. And what is sad, is that people still believe that crap is real.

Anyway, on CF I was raked over coals for suggesting that Constantine had something to do with the Nicene Creed. People wanted evidence, and they were flaming me. It was horrible. Then I am over at a buddy of mines house and he has this "Lost Books of the Bible"(not LDS) that he got from his apartment complex's old, old library. Lo and behold Constantine is in practically every picture of the early Church. Funny that a guy who slaughtered people in Gladiator style functions for not accepting Christianity is responsible for the Nicene Creed UPON WHICH most Mainstream Christianity is based.

What I also find funny, is everyone is attacking Joseph Smith's character, when obviously the route of the Earl Christian Church was partisan, and ruthless. And again, Paul preached to those pagan worshippers that diefied an "UNKOWN GOD" that our Father in Heaven is not unkown, yet once the Apostles and the truth left the Earth, Pagan's again spin the simple truths of Christianity around their perception(which was previously equipped by Pagan ritual and Greek Mythology).

[srm]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM

SRM,

Matt. 16: 27, 2 Tim. 4: 14, Rev. 20: 12, and James 2: 21-24 do not even hint at the fact that works lead man to salvation, or heaven, or anything else of that nature. Each one of them is in the context of living a better life on earth. They are in the context of man's soul (which is your mind, will, emotions, personality). Salvation and going to heaven is in the context of the spirit (the one that is born anew when we receive Jesus). 2 Cor 7:1 draws a distinction between them. If you are going to use these scriptures, at least understand what they mean.

So my few verses and the scores of others are trumped by you little verse in 2 Corinthians. In fact 2 Cor 7:1 say that we are to cleanse ourselves of filthiness and we are to perfect holiness. these seem like works to me. How is it that you understand it to mean that works are not needed? AND, why is your understanding better than mine?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 23 2004, 10:55 PM

Was it not Paul who preached against the UNKOWN GOD?

Quite the contrary:

So Paul stood before the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: ‘To an unknown god.’ Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone. From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination. Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.” (Acts 17:22-31 – NET Bible)

Paul was pointing out to the men of Athens that the God they are ignorant of is the very God they should get to know, the very God he is preaching about.

M.

[porterrockwell]

I still think that the most damning evidence against the Early Christian Church(the one developed by Constantine), is that it reverted to the "UNKOWN GOD" style of deification that was rendered untruthful by Paul previous to that of the Council Nicea(if I am correct a few hundred years or so). Yet people continue to insist that they have the truth, even though their truth bares paganistic influence and was constructed upon the basis of Greek Philsosophy. What I find to be funny, is that the classification of the "holy men" was derived from Constantine's ethical drive. In which, actual "holy men" were merely those who would side with his vision of Christianity. Also, was not Constantine Christianity installed as Imperialistic institution and run on such basis? Hmmm, sounds like you are taking the CHOICE, or otherwise known as AGENCY, out of things.

Also, Paul describes seeing Jesus Christ as "above the brightness of the sun". Now I know I have heard that somewhere before. And I believe multiple prophets of olden days(previous to that of the Great Apostasy) had heard God the FATHER say "This is my beloved SON-hear him". Again, sounds way familiar....hmmm. Oh, Good that be our boy Joseph Smith, who also had as such in his first vision. So if Joseph Smith were plagarizing, as most anti's and Non-members will say, what is to say all after the first to utter such things were not of the same such habit.

I don't know, to me, these things have always been subconcious, but now that I am reviewing everything, my testimony is starting to grow.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 24 2004, 10:28 AM

Hmmm, sounds like you are taking the CHOICE, or otherwise known as AGENCY, out of things.

Are you using the word you as in referring to me or are you using it in a general way?

M.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 24 2004, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 24 2004, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 24 2004, 10:28 AM

Hmmm, sounds like you are taking the CHOICE, or otherwise known as AGENCY, out of things.

Are you using the word you as in referring to me or are you using it in a general way?

M.

I'm sorry for the mix up Maureen, I was speaking about Constantine. Actually to him, we have conversations now and then, he said that after he went to spirit prison he is still waiting for someone to do his Temple work. Not only that, but now he admits he was way off about the whole Christianity thing. But he has a great singles ward in spirit prison, and this week Jimmy Hendrix himself is gonna be the DJ for the tri-stake mixer they are having.

I made him promise to take some pics, since I can't be there and all. Got some other business to attend to this weekend. He has been eyeing this hot little number from Laman's crowd, I told him to watch out, they are pretty crazy bunch. HAHAHAHAHA. Just kidding, I already took my meds this morning so there is no way I could have gone Skitzo this early.

[Faerie]

LOL!!! I think I like you Porter

[Guest Ammon]

As to the OP, antimormons who believe in Christ and strive to follow His teachings are Christian. People in this category do what they do because they believe it is what Christ wants them to do it. Now, antimormons who do not believe in Christ, or believe in Him but do not strive to follow His teachings, are not Christians, in my opinion.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 24 2004, 10:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 24 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Mar 24 2004, 11:34 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 24 2004, 10:28 AM

Hmmm, sounds like you are taking the CHOICE, or otherwise known as AGENCY, out of things.

Are you using the word you as in referring to me or are you using it in a general way?

M.

I'm sorry for the mix up Maureen, I was speaking about Constantine. Actually to him, we have conversations now and then, he said that after he went to spirit prison he is still waiting for someone to do his Temple work. Not only that, but now he admits he was way off about the whole Christianity thing. But he has a great singles ward in spirit prison, and this week Jimmy Hendrix himself is gonna be the DJ for the tri-stake mixer they are having.

I made him promise to take some pics, since I can't be there and all. Got some other business to attend to this weekend. He has been eyeing this hot little number from Laman's crowd, I told him to watch out, they are pretty crazy bunch. HAHAHAHAHA. Just kidding, I already took my meds this morning so there is no way I could have gone Skitzo this early.

ROFL! Porter...I think you are around Snow too much.....you are beginning to sound like him...I love it!

[Guest Starsky]

Faith is not isolated in a vacuum....the very essence of faith is 'action'...in spirit, mind and body...

True faith produces works/fruits....by their fruits ye shall know them...to be done by faith or not...

Repentence is a work induced by faith....and anyone who has really repented..know just how hard of work that really is...

John 15 teaches us how faith connects us to the Source/Christ so that our works are good works...fruit.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 24 2004, 12:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 24 2004, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -porterrockwell@Mar 24 2004, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by -Maureen@Mar 24 2004, 11:34 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 24 2004, 10:28 AM

Hmmm, sounds like you are taking the CHOICE, or otherwise known as AGENCY, out of things.

Are you using the word you as in referring to me or are you using it in a general way?

M.

I'm sorry for the mix up Maureen, I was speaking about Constantine. Actually to him, we have conversations now and then, he said that after he went to spirit prison he is still waiting for someone to do his Temple work. Not only that, but now he admits he was way off about the whole Christianity thing. But he has a great singles ward in spirit prison, and this week Jimmy Hendrix himself is gonna be the DJ for the tri-stake mixer they are having.

I made him promise to take some pics, since I can't be there and all. Got some other business to attend to this weekend. He has been eyeing this hot little number from Laman's crowd, I told him to watch out, they are pretty crazy bunch. HAHAHAHAHA. Just kidding, I already took my meds this morning so there is no way I could have gone Skitzo this early.

ROFL! Porter...I think you are around Snow too much.....you are beginning to sound like him...I love it!

Me and Snow are actually in reality, very much alike. I just tend to lean more heavily on Gospel standards and revelation then I used to. Once my alter ego jumps out, it's kinda hard to put him back in. Kinda like that Monkeybone movie with Brendan Frasier.

[Tr2]

And yet Trident the vast majority of Christianity over the overwhelmingly vast majority of it's history has understood the doctrine of salvation differently than your "interpretation;" your "interpretation" is the minority view.

So we are back to the argument that because a lot of people belief something, that makes it correct?

Mormons do exactly what you say is required but you question the fruit? What fruit?

I don't care too much about what people do, I do care about the motives behind what they do. The mormons that I actually know typically obey the teachings of their religion out of fear, not out of love and joy. They obey because they fear the consequences of what they believe will happen if they don't. Living a life of fear is a lousy way to live. And no, I do not see a great deal of fruit from the lives of the mormons I know. I see people that are striving so hard to be worthy they are not enjoying the life that Christ died to give. i see athiests getting more out of life. If an athiest gets more enjoyment out of life than a religious person does, then that is enough proof that their belief system is doing nothing but keeping them down.

The issue is not whether the atonement was sufficient or not

That is EXACTLY what the issue is. Mormons do not believe Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough.

By unBiblical I mean that the concepts are not found explicitly in the Bible

Obviously I don't have enough free time to go over each one. Give me one or two that you think are unbiblical concepts.

It's a word. Is there something special about the word that you know that we don't

No, it's just that word is used as though there is some kind of secret behind it. The early church was surrounded by paganism. As an example, people say that Christmas is a pagan holiday. It was celebrated on a day that that pagan celebrations occurred. What people forget is that the Christians were celebrating Jesus on a day that the pagans were celebrating their own things. These are not two connected events. Millions of people go to their various churches on Sundays in North America, does that put them under the same umbrella? Of course not. I know this idea came out of nowhere, I was just illustrating a point. People try to link things together that just aren't linked in the way they'd like.

In regards to all the scriptures you posted, I do not have the time or the inclination to go over each one of those, because you didn't do your own research. I don't have the luxury of a cut and paste function that you used. I will go over the one that you mentioned numerous times; the great commandment.

What is the great commandment? It is a command to love God and to love others. Love is not a work. Love does lead to good works, but they are two completely different and separate things.

If you want to address a point that you have actually researched and wish to discuss, then I'll gladly do so.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 24 2004, 05:01 PM

And yet Trident the vast majority of Christianity over the overwhelmingly vast majority of it's history has understood the doctrine of salvation differently than your "interpretation;" your "interpretation" is the minority view.

So we are back to the argument that because a lot of people belief something, that makes it correct?

Sorry Trident. You have again missed the point entirely. Frankly the point was pretty simple and I am amazed that anyone could miss it. The point is that your claim that the Bible is so clear that it is not a matter of interpretation is proven false by the evidence. People interpret differently precisely because it is unclear.

I don't care too much about what people do, I do care about the motives behind what they do. The mormons that I actually know typically obey the teachings of their religion out of fear, not out of love and joy. They obey because they fear the consequences of what they believe will happen if they don't. Living a life of fear is a lousy way to live. And no, I do not see a great deal of fruit from the lives of the mormons I know. I see people that are striving so hard to be worthy they are not enjoying the life that Christ died to give. i see athiests getting more out of life. If an athiest gets more enjoyment out of life than a religious person does, then that is enough proof that their belief system is doing nothing but keeping them down.

Sorry again. Your point is rejected because it is stupid; you did just hear the stupid buzzer didn't you? You are not qualifed by either education or training to have any idea what motivates Mormons. You have offered no logic nor any evidence to support your stupid claim. Your idea that Mormon lives do not bear fruit is likewise stupid. Did you hear the buzzer again. I have posted the Mormon fruits list twice and both times you refused to go near it. Anytime you have the courage to compare Mormon fruits to your fruit, give me a hollar and I will repost the same list that you were afraid of the first two times.

That is EXACTLY what the issue is. Mormons do not believe Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough.

LIE ALERT. How is it that you claim to be a Christian and yet you continue to lie about LDS beliefs in a regular and consistent fashion. For your sake you'd better hope that honest living is not a requiste of salvation.

By unBiblical I mean that the concepts are not found explicitly in the Bible

Obviously I don't have enough free time to go over each one. Give me one or two that you think are unbiblical concepts.

Golly, I dunno, how bout the big one -- that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are ontologically one being? You know, the whole point of the creeds and stuff.

In regards to all the scriptures you posted, I do not have the time or the inclination to go over each one of those, because you didn't do your own research.

Wrong again. I have fully research the topic from top to bottom and can discuss it's relative merits and demerits and lenght from various angles, including yours, in two languages --- all of which makes you chicken. That's twice you brought it up and twice you run from the encounter.

If you want to address a point that you have actually researched and wish to discuss, then I'll gladly do so.

Stop dodging and pick one. I brought up:

1. You dishonestly stating LDS beliefs in a way that defies our own understanding.

2. LDS fruits vs yours

3. Non-biblical concepts of the creeds.

4. Salvation

[serapha]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM

SRM,

Matt. 16: 27,  2 Tim. 4: 14, Rev. 20: 12, and James 2: 21-24 do not even hint at the fact that works lead man to salvation,

Well yes they do Trident. You are just interpreting them to mean that they don't.

You earlier claimed, mistakenly, that there were no scriptures that talked about works and their necessity for salvation. You kinda ignored the ones I posted and now continue to act like they don't exist. Let try to not pick and choose what parts of believe and what to ignore. K.

Diligence, patience, and enduring to the end is required to ensure our salvation:

2 Peter 1:4-10; 2 Peter 3:14-18; Heb. 12:1,7,14,15; Heb. 10:36; James 1:12; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:7,10,11; Col. 1:22-29; James 5:7-12; 1 John 2:24-25.

Why? Rom. 8:16-18; Rev. 3:19-21; Rev. 21:7; Heb.12:9,10; Acts 17:28,29

The words of Christ himself:

His teachings show that obedience is required to obtain eternal life; there is no hint of "once saved, always saved" or instant salvation without works:

Matt. 19: 16-23 (point blank: to obtain eternal life, keep the commandments); see also Mark 10:17-30; Luke 18:18-30

Luke 10:25-28 (again: keep the commandments to be saved)

Mark 12: 28-34 (Christ teaches the two greatest commandments, and tells one who understands them that he is "not far from the kingdom of God")

Luke 11:28 (blessed are they that DO the word of God)

Sermon on the Mount

Matt. chapters 5 to 7 (focuses on works, behavior)

Matt. 5:19-21 (must keep commandments)

Matt 5:48 (must seek to be perfect)

Matt. 7:13,14 (the gate is straight and narrow)

Matt. 7:21-23 (Must DO God's will; Christians who did evil will not go to heaven)

Matt. 7:24-28 (those who do what Christ says are built on a sure foundation)

Matt. 24:13 (endure to the end to be saved) - see also Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13

Matt. 12:35-37 (will be judged by our words, to be condemned or justified)

Matt. 16:24-27 (we'll be judged by our works)

John 8:31-32 (we must continue in the word of Christ)

Luke 21:19 (patience is required to preserve our souls)

Luke 21:34-36 (be cautious, avoid sin, to be counted worthy to stand before God)

Mark 11:25-26 (we must forgive others to be forgiven ourselves)

John 5: 28,29 (those that do good obtain life)

John 14:15,21,23 (Christ teaches us to keep his commandments)

John 15: 1-14 (we must bear fruit, keep commandments)

Matt. 13:3-23 (parable of the sower: He warns that some receive the word and believe, but do not endure: will they be in God's kingdom? See Luke 9:24-26)

Matt. 12:50 (must do his will to have a close relationship with Christ)

Matt. 13:40-43 (parable of the tares: those in his kingdom who do evil are damned)

John 12:50 (The Father's commandment is life everlasting)

See also Luke 21: 19,34-36; Matt. 25 (esp. v. 31-46); John 3:5

Judged by works:

Rom. 2: 4-11; Rev. 20: 12-15; Matt. 16:27; Gal. 6: 7-9; Rev. 22:12-14; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Col. 3:24-25; John 5:28,29; Eccl. 12:13,14; 1 Peter 1:17; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Rev. 2:23; 1 Peter 4:17-19.

Repentance and obedience are required for salvation:

Acts 2:37-38; Matt. 4:17; Acts 17:30,31; 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Cor. 7:9-11; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9,20-27,30-32; Ezekiel 33:11-20; Acts 26:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 24:47; Heb. 5:8,9; Rom. 2: 4-11; Prov. 4:4; Prov. 19:16; Deut. 6:17; Eccl. 12:13,14; Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3; 1 Sam. 15:22; Jerem. 7:23; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; Exo. 19:5; Deut. 29:9-15; John 7:17; Rom. 6:16; James 4:6-10; 2 Thess. 1:4-9; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; Matt. 5:48; Lev. 11:45; Lev. 19:2; Lev. 20:7,26; Matt. 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5,19-21; Joel 2:12,13; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; 2 Cor. 7:15; Phil. 2:8.

Saved by Grace - but we access that Grace by obedience:

Eph. 2:8; Rev. 22:12-14; Philippians 3:12-14; Heb. 5:8,9; Exodus 20:6; James 4:6-10; Matt. 5:7; 1 Peter 1:13-22.

We must do, not just believe:

James, Chapters 1 and 2; 1 John 3:18,19; Matt. 7:21-27; Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Titus 2; 1 Peter 1:22; Matt. 12:50; 1 Tim. 6:17-19.

Christians can fall from grace, so be cautious:

Heb. 12:15; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Pet. 1:4-10; Heb. 3: 12-14; Heb. 4:1,11; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 21:34-36; Phil. 2:12; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-31; 2 Cor. 6:1; Jude 1:3-13; Col. 1:23; James 5:12,19,20.

Sin can keep you out of heaven:

1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-26; Eph. 5:3-7; 1 Thess. 4:1-7; Col. 3:5-25; Jude 1:14-25; Heb. 12:1-17; James 4:4; Matt. 5:22; Matt. 25: 31-46; Ezek. 18.

We must grow and progress through obedience to be saved:

2 Peter 1:3-10 (heavy!); 1 John 2:4,5; Phil. 3:12-15.

Now, snow,

Unless you are Jeff Lindsay, you just committed a copyright violation according to the rules of this forum.

You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.

~serapha~

http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works_list.html

[Kevin]

Snow is Jeff Lindsay.