Excess

[sixpacktr]

Dr T.,

I guess that most people here at LDSTalk HAVE that excess cash to be philanthropists! With kids in school, a grandkid on the way, my wife wanting to go back to school, and a new house to pay for, I'm happy for now to just have 10% + Fast offering to pay!

I hope that the day will come that I can give my "excess" away to someone more deserving...

[Dr T]

Six,

Contratulations on the upcoming grandchild and your new home :)

[StrawberryFields]

I hope that the day will come that I can give my "excess" away to someone more deserving...

What kind of thinking is that... someone more deserving?

[Guest mamacat]

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We grow strawberries, tayberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, rhubarb, and asparagus.

Before my dad's brain injury, he also grew corn, squash, lettuce, carrots, snow peas, peas, kholrabi (sp?), red and white onions, turnips and spinach.

:thumbsup:

i can't express how thrilled i was to learn of the LDS practice of home growing food and self-sustaining initiatives. i also love the community support for this. one of my favorite areas of interest is in organic and biodynamic gardening, as well as permaculture. this all fits so seamlessly with all the LDS practices i have found in these areas....cause for excitement for me. :)

lol, i am enthralled with the unusual things i suppose.

Mamacat,

I believe that you and I are kindred spirits. I very much enjoyed the material you posted Thanks!

Tim

:)

thank you very much Tim....i am so pleased that enjoyed it. do tell more about your garden....

I believe that was CrimsonKairos that spoke of his and his families garden not me. I do make an attemnpt at gardening though I am not very goos at it. Thanks again and thanks to you too Blessed it is good to know I am not the only one who thinks about and believes things like this! :)

Tim

Tim

hi Tim ~

thanks for your reply. i thought that since i had mentioned organic gardening and such, that you perhaps might have a garden. i love learning about these gardening concepts, but do not know much in the way of hands-on gardening. my current interest is xeriscape. would love to be able to design and implement xeriscapes, esp in an urban landscape. to be both beautiful and practical, providing serentity and visual respite, as well as bodily sustenance. food for both body and soul.

i have great ambition lol. thus far i have a small container garden on my porch. a ficus tree, roses, and assorted cacti...including a quite pretty flowering aloe plant.

but my roses don't seem to be thriving. i think a small container might not be the ideal place for them. i would love any rose nurturing tips if anyone has them...esp for container roses.'

love 'n everything, mamacat

[Guest mamacat]

i hope that the following isn't digressing too much from the topic of this thread, though i do see it as related to the concern of 'excess,' in the sense that the manner in which we live, on whatever scale, does contribute to our awareness of utilization and waste. i love the idea of making our urban landscapes more nature-friendly and sustainable.

Why Urban ?

Cities cover only 2% of the earth’s surface, but consume 75% of it’s resources

What if ‘waste is food’ and safe sewage and garbage were prime inputs to food production and building?

What if the urban landscape were edible and contained comfortable, safe dwellings?

What if vacant wasteland in cities were productive and enhancing the environment for living?

What if urban areas were increasing biodiversity and aesthetic beauty rather than diminishing it?

More and more environmentally conscious individuals are contemplating leaving the city to migrate to the country. They are in search of natural surroundings and an escape from the problems that the cities produce such as noise, pollution, concrete, reduced green space, and rectilinear environments. If everyone decides to move out of the city, then an effect is vast suburbanization. This diluted concentration of people creates inefficient demand for land, water, transportation, markets/commerce. Vast open corridors of native flora and fauna, which ultimately contribute to our own well being, will be severed and isolated. These spaces need to be preserved for our own enjoyment and the survival of the other species that inhabit them.

What better way than to create a livable environment within the city. Cities are where the people work and where resources are being consumed so the time is now to create sustainable systems. Cities can make a lot of sense because they concentrate people and resources in one area and decrease the amount of roads, buildings, services that must be present in every community for humans to live. Within our cities, there is a wealth of wasted resources waiting to become the root of our new dwellings and food source.

Food Production/Edible Landscaping

Producing food for human consumption has mostly been relegated to mega corporations whose intent is not always focused on our physical and spiritual health. Individuals and groups in urban areas often feel disempowered to grow their own food. There are vasts and untapped resources (unique growing spaces, organic material) when developing an urban eco-food system. This has been clearly demonstrated, out of necessity, in the high, production city farming of Havana, Cuba. City farming is spreading fast (if not in the U.S., we’re behind the curve, we produce grass clippings). City farms contributed 15% to world food production in 1993 and will grow to 33% by 2005.

A persistent belief that growing food for oneself is difficult and time consuming has led many people away from being connected with their food source. With a creative and whole systems approach to growing food it is possible, with limited space and time, to feed ourselves to a greater degree. To save money and resources (energy) it is possible to grow steadily higher percentages of local food. To do so requires a adaptive approach to managing the foods we eat. Eating more according to the seasons and supplementing what you don’t grow with local producers will reduce dependency on unsustainable systems (foreign energy etc.)

Many edible plants have been relegated to non-food status due to the lack of being able to exploit them for monocultures.

“It is our belief that plants can provide people with the majority of their needs, in a way that cares for the planet's health. A wide range of plants can be grown to produce all our food needs and many other commodities, whilst also providing a diversity of habitats for our native flora and fauna.

There are over 20,000 species of edible plants in the world yet fewer than 20 species now provide 90% of our food. Large areas of land devoted to single crops increase dependence upon intervention of chemicals and intensive control methods with the added threat of chemical resistant insects and new diseases. The changing world climate greatly affecting cultivation indicates a greater diversity is needed.”

(– link to Plants for a Future)

Many concepts of mechanized farming have been brought along in the small scale food production arenas (gardens, etc.). Row cropping, tillage, monocultures, pesticides/herbicides (even organic ones) all are inherently difficult to maintain without vast inputs of energy, money and time. Each of these is part of the battle with nature that is unnecessary to produce food for yourself. A “battle” with weeds, watering problems, bug problems is simply misspent energy. Working with nature (Permaculture) to create a more harmonious, whole systems garden that takes advantage of the vast biological resources that nature provides. Indeed any system in battle with nature is doomed to quick failure without maintaining the vast amounts unsustainable inputs.

(link to No Work Garden class)

Natural Building

Modern buildings are composed mainly of dimensional old growth lumber, energy intensive concrete, and poisonous composites such as flooring, cabinets, insulation, carpeting, and furniture. In addition to their unsustainable production, they are often shipped halfway across the country or the world to get to their final destination.

Many people have the urge to build their own dream home from the ground up. There is an overwhelming existing infrastructure of usable buildings that already exist. In order to build new, many existing materials find their home in landfills. It makes sense to utilize these materials, such as existing buildings, foundations, structural support, or roofing structures. By blending existing structures with natural materials and urban waste, a post- industrial era can begin.

In or nearby most cities throughout the world are the natural materials of clay, sand, fiber, wood, and stone. The use of these materials helps to moderate fluctuations of humidity, sound pollution, air pollution

These materials can be used together to create structural support, insulation, and aesthetic qualities. These materials require and little energy to harvest

Michael Smith in The Case For Natural Building states accurately:

Of course, it’s impossible to build a house with no environmental impact, but it is our responsibility to minimize and localize the damage. Digging a hole in your yard for clay to make a cob house may look ugly at first, but it is a lot less ugly than strip mines, giant factories, and super highways. Nature has enormous capacity to heal small wounds…Many of us religiously protect the trees on our own property, then go to the lumberyard to purchase the products of wholesale clear cutting…Keeping our environmental footprint under our noses helps ensure that we will minimize our impact and protect the health of our local ecosystems, since we see them from our windows and walk through them everyday. Building with natural, local materials, also reduces our dependence on the polluting and energy intensive manufacturing and transport industries.

In nature, waste is food. Something is waste only because another use has not been determined. By closing the loop on existing energy systems, waste products of one system become the inputs to another. A true economy can then be achieved because the waste has been eliminated. Continual inefficiency and loss of input energy is destined for failure. The only way to create a sustainable human impact is to mirror processes already occurring in nature.

Fortunately there are alternative building techniques that utilize non-toxic urban waste products in conjunction with natural materials (such as sand, clay, straw, wood, and stone) to create healthy, inexpensive, energy efficient, sustainable dwellings.

Conventional stick frame homes create hundreds and thousands of short foot long pieces of kiln dried dimensional lumber that find their way into landfills. Outta The Box has created a building system that utilizes this former waste material. (See Urban Insulated Cob page)

This is only one example on how to creatively use an urban waste product. Waste management is now viewed as a problem to the modern city, when it may actually be part of the solution. This is an area that has been relatively unexplored. There is a wealth of untapped resources, often free, waiting to be used.

http://www.outtathebox.org/gallery/index.html

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i've read somewhere that Joseph Smith included this idea about excess to include the consumption of meat. that he abstained from meat, and encouraged others to do so as well, except in times of emergency, or great need.

i've always felt that the word of wisdom fit very well with the idea of vegetarianism...and i was not surprised to see that there is some note about j.smith making this connection also.

i don't have the source of these thoughts available, but it was interesting to discover anyway.

:)

Joseph never abstained totally from meat. There are many stories about him where he ate turkey, and other meats. He ate it when he had it.

The prophets have indeed spoken out on vegetarianism. do a search of LDS.org

hi Tiancum ~

on page 2 of this thread i posted an article about veggie and LDS with lots of references to scripture. i will take a look at LDS.org as well. thanks. :)

love, mamacat

[shanstress70]

thanks for your reply. i thought that since i had mentioned organic gardening and such, that you perhaps might have a garden.

Hi Mamacat,

I'm interested in organic gardening as well. My yard is only 1/4 acre though, so I don't have much room to garden. However, I'm currently growing cucumbers, tomatoes, strawberries, grapes, blueberries, figs... all organic.

Not sure how successful they will be though, as my chickens are fond of munching on them.

You probably missed my thread about my chickens, but I got them about 2 months ago for pest control of black widows in my backyard. I live in the city limits and have neighbors all around me. The neighbors were surprised but they think they're great... of course they just want some eggs! Apparently, it's quite common for city dwellers in my area and next weekend there will be an exhibition of the city coops around the city, called Tour d’Coop.

Anyway, in a couple of months I'm looking forward to free range organic eggs every day.

Since I can't really grow enough food to sustain my family on my small piece of earth, we belong to a farm co-op or CSA. We paid a big chunk at the first of the growing season and we now get our weekly divvy from a local organic farm. So far, it's been great and I've tried a few new veggies... like tatsoi which is awesome!

[CrimsonKairos]

That sounds awesome, Shan. :)

While I do appreciate a good burger, there's nary a food to compare with homegrown, fresh-picked peas still in their pods (I don't eat the pods). Mmmmm, now that's some sweet, sweet lovin' I'll tell ya. B)

[shanstress70]

That sounds awesome, Shan. :)

While I do appreciate a good burger, there's nary a food to compare with homegrown, fresh-picked peas still in their pods (I don't eat the pods). Mmmmm, now that's some sweet, sweet lovin' I'll tell ya. B)

Don't get me wrong... I love me a good steak. I'm not a vegetarian by any means. But I do love fresh veggies. Farmer Fred says the sweet peas will be ready next week. If you were close by, we'd have you over for dinner.

[Guest mamacat]

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thanks for your reply. i thought that since i had mentioned organic gardening and such, that you perhaps might have a garden.

Hi Mamacat,

I'm interested in organic gardening as well. My yard is only 1/4 acre though, so I don't have much room to garden. However, I'm currently growing cucumbers, tomatoes, strawberries, grapes, blueberries, figs... all organic.

Not sure how successful they will be though, as my chickens are fond of munching on them.

You probably missed my thread about my chickens, but I got them about 2 months ago for pest control of black widows in my backyard. I live in the city limits and have neighbors all around me. The neighbors were surprised but they think they're great... of course they just want some eggs! Apparently, it's quite common for city dwellers in my area and next weekend there will be an exhibition of the city coops around the city, called Tour d’Coop.

Anyway, in a couple of months I'm looking forward to free range organic eggs every day.

Since I can't really grow enough food to sustain my family on my small piece of earth, we belong to a farm co-op or CSA. We paid a big chunk at the first of the growing season and we now get our weekly divvy from a local organic farm. So far, it's been great and I've tried a few new veggies... like tatsoi which is awesome!

that's so way cool that you garden and homestead this wayShanstress.

your yard must be so beautiful, with blueberry bushes, grapevines and strawberries issuing forth.

"next weekend there will be an exhibition of the city coops around the city, called Tour d’Coop"

very cute.

i don't eat eggs straight up anymore...i can't do it, though i still eat baked goods made with them...if i need them for a recipe i always purchase free range organic.

this is so impressive...i only dream of living so consciously as you. i would like to have more organic veggies in containers on my diminutive porch soon. thanks for inspiring me. :)

love and light, mamacat

[Guest mamacat]

a website that might be of interest ~

http://www.homestead.org/

[CrimsonKairos]

Farmer Fred says the sweet peas will be ready next week. If you were close by, we'd have you over for dinner.

Makes me wish we were neighbors!

[shanstress70]

your yard must be so beautiful, with blueberry bushes, grapevines and strawberries issuing forth.

this is so impressive...i only dream of living so consciously as you. i would like to have more organic veggies in containers on my diminutive porch soon. thanks for inspiring me. :)

You must have such a sweet personality, Mamacat. It really does shine through in your writing. Let me clarify this a bit. I only have one grapevine, one blueberry bush, and one big container of strawberry plants, along with the cukes and tomatoes. I really just dabble in it. I can't take credit for the picture you're painting of my yard, but I can dream... maybe next year!

I am thoroughly enjoying the harvests from Farmer Fred. Last night I made a big pot of turnips and turnip greens. They were picked yesterday, and they were GOOD. His strawberries were out of this world... totally a different flavor than what you buy in the store.

[TimA.]

a website that might be of interest ~

http://www.homestead.org/

Great web page Mammacat Thanks! Did you ever read "The Good Life" by Helen and Scott Nearing?

My gardening adventures consist of a few things that we seem to always have success with. Peas, sweet potatos, squash, greens in the fall and tomatos. We dont do that well with tomatos but keep trying because we like them so much but everything on that short list seems to always do well here. The sweet potatos are cool because you just dry them for a while and put them in the pantry and they keep all winter! :)

Tim

[Guest mamacat]

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your yard must be so beautiful, with blueberry bushes, grapevines and strawberries issuing forth.

this is so impressive...i only dream of living so consciously as you. i would like to have more organic veggies in containers on my diminutive porch soon. thanks for inspiring me. :)

You must have such a sweet personality, Mamacat. It really does shine through in your writing. Let me clarify this a bit. I only have one grapevine, one blueberry bush, and one big container of strawberry plants, along with the cukes and tomatoes. I really just dabble in it. I can't take credit for the picture you're painting of my yard, but I can dream... maybe next year!

I am thoroughly enjoying the harvests from Farmer Fred. Last night I made a big pot of turnips and turnip greens. They were picked yesterday, and they were GOOD. His strawberries were out of this world... totally a different flavor than what you buy in the store.

that's very nice of you to say Shanstress, but i don't think most people would characterize me as sweet lol. i do admire kindness in others, so i try to emulate that, though sometimes it's a struggle.

and still, your garden is blessed with blueberries, grapes and veggies....beautiful in my mind...i'm sure that your bounty will multiply. it takes effort to transform a plot of earth into a garden of eden. i commend you.

mmmmm...turnips and turnip greens sound so delicious.

<div class='quotemain'>

a website that might be of interest ~

http://www.homestead.org/

Great web page Mammacat Thanks! Did you ever read "The Good Life" by Helen and Scott Nearing?

My gardening adventures consist of a few things that we seem to always have success with. Peas, sweet potatos, squash, greens in the fall and tomatos. We dont do that well with tomatos but keep trying because we like them so much but everything on that short list seems to always do well here. The sweet potatos are cool because you just dry them for a while and put them in the pantry and they keep all winter! :)

Tim

hi Tim ~ i have not read this book...i will go over to amazon to take a look. thanks! your garden sounds delightful as well. fresh sweet potatoes all winter sounds so wonderful. i wish i had some suggestions for your tomato endeavors...actually, i just trasplanted some of my plants into organic soil, and they almost immediately had a very positive reaction to this...they began to thrive and bloom much more than they had in regular soil.

[Guest mamacat]

Doctrine & Covenants 89

|v10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man--

|v11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

|v12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

|v13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

|v14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

|v15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

|v16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground--

|v17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

thinking about this passage today, and this thread, regarding excess, and i looked again at doctrine and covenants. thought i'd repost this section about the word of wisdom.

[CrimsonKairos]

We just tried this awesome salad the other night. The dressing is made from olive oil, red wine vinegar, worcesteshire sauce (sp?), sugar and toasted sesame seeds. The salad is simply fresh baby spinach leaves and sliced strawberries. It was sooooooooo good!

[Guest mamacat]

oh that makes me happy just imagining such a salad. :)

finding veggie worsesteshire sauce is an adventure, but that dressing sounds delicious.....so i will try that!

[a-train]

Mamacat,

Thanks for bringing that up. It seems that every few years or so I witness a member who 'finds' that passage and suddenly makes great efforts to remove meat from their diet entirely. And for each Latter-Day Saint who makes attempts to follow such counsel and eat meat sparingly, I applaud you. I am one of those. I typically only eat meat when it is served to me in public settings such at Grandmas or Christmas.

However, I have known some members who have judged others for their disregard for this portion of the Word of Wisdom. Let that not be. Let us make no assumption that meat is sin. Furthermore, let us not suppose that the impression upon our minds here given by the LORD should be a gross rejection of meat and/or the notion that it should only be utilized during times of great tribulation and starvation. Let us remember Paul's designation of those who are 'commanding to abstain from meats' as those who 'shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils' (1 Tim. 4)

The notion herein given us by the LORD can be applied throughout our lifestyle. We are to live conservatively and in great thanksgiving to God. Those who ardently make attemps to enforce a meat ban are as the Pharisees of ancient Israel who became a law unto themselves and, in their judgemental and prideful state, were grossly out of the LORD's way.

-a-train

[Guest mamacat]

Mamacat,

Thanks for bringing that up. It seems that every few years or so I witness a member who 'finds' that passage and suddenly makes great efforts to remove meat from their diet entirely. And for each Latter-Day Saint who makes attempts to follow such counsel and eat meat sparingly, I applaud you. I am one of those. I typically only eat meat when it is served to me in public settings such at Grandmas or Christmas.

However, I have known some members who have judged others for their disregard for this portion of the Word of Wisdom. Let that not be. Let us make no assumption that meat is sin. Furthermore, let us not suppose that the impression upon our minds here given by the LORD should be a gross rejection of meat and/or the notion that it should only be utilized during times of great tribulation and starvation. Let us remember Paul's designation of those who are 'commanding to abstain from meats' as those who 'shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils' (1 Tim. 4)

The notion herein given us by the LORD can be applied throughout our lifestyle. We are to live conservatively and in great thanksgiving to God. Those who ardently make attemps to enforce a meat ban are as the Pharisees of ancient Israel who became a law unto themselves and, in their judgemental and prideful state, were grossly out of the LORD's way.

-a-train

yup.

the following is from the article i posted on page 2 of this thread ~

All Enjoy the Freedom of Agency

I once felt compelled by certain circumstances to ask the First Presidency of the Church if my vegetarian lifestyle was consistent with current LDS doctrine. Understandably, their response is not a wholesale endorsement of vegetarianism, but I received a letter that states, "If members of the Church prefer not to eat meat, that is their privilege." That brief statement makes it clear to me that the free exercise of individual agency is alive and well in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Its members are taught correct principles and allowed to govern themselves, and they are given new and higher principles as they are mentally and spiritually prepared to take the next step.

Let us remember the words of Isaiah, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little." (Isaiah 28:9,10) I take great joy in seeing the gradual, line upon line fulfillment of an 1833 prophetic prescription for health in my own life and in the lives of my family members and friends.