TimA.

Funny thing about God and free choice. It seems that God has granted us free choice unconditionally. God allows children to be murdered everyday and does not directly interfere. God will not interfere with our free choice but I firmly believe that in some instances He fully expects me to and will hold me accountable if I do not. Tim

That was interesting. I wonder if polygny is human nature and human nature is something we are suposed to rise above, how is it that polygyny is taught as I higher or celelstial principle by some in the church? Does not seem to fit with the ideal of everyone being equal somehow to me. Tim

This was fun to read. :) Growing up in Tennessee I heard : Money (or anything) around here is as "scarce as hen's teeth" A good meal might be "fine as frog's hair" That or he was "slicker than a peeled onion" Dont take any wooden nickles. Why are you running around like a chicken with its head cut off? If i was in trouble, boy I will take a withe ( a switch) to you and wear you out! And I sometimes thought I was royalty when I hear "Lord boy what have you done now?" LOL Dont let your mouth overload your butt! That guy is crooked as a barrel of snakes Crooked as a politician. I know there are more I just dont remember them right now.

CK and Six. If I offended you or anyone with my comments here I am sorry for that. I did not mean to do that. You asked if anyone read what you wrote? Yes I did and I would ask did you read what I wrote? I do very much understand the entitlement attitude you speak of. Well I cant say I understand it but I am very aware of it. I think there are reasons why people are lazy and apathetic that we cant see and understand. My point is that in my understanding of the gospel I must not shun these people. I must love them and associate with them just as I would those who appear less lazy and apathetic. Now that being said I believe it is wrong to enable further self destructive behaviour from someone. We dont buy the alcoholic a drink or give the gambler money. But what should we do when he has drank or gambled away his pay day and now cant buy food? I could say well it is time for a diet brother, but what about the wife and children that will suffer inocently? It is hard to know what is right sometimes and can be very frustrating. Then those children learn these self destructive patterns and repeat them in their life and we see the sins of the fathers visited on the children. Gees brother where is Solomon when you need him?? Christ can heal though and I must be His representative to all I meet perhaps especially those who appear to me to be lazy and apathetic. Anyway I hope you understand what I am trying to say, I know I dont express it very well but most of all I hope you will forgive any offense I have given. Tim

I have faced it, I well know there are people like you describe who seem to have no desire to better themself. I have known some personally and some are relatives of mine. How though, brother, are they ever to find a desire to better themself if those of us who have taken upon ourself the name of Christ refuse to associate with them, judging them not worth wasting our precious time. If we belong to Christ then would it not be His time anyway. And didnt He hang out with some of the worst of the worst and get critisized for it by those who were well to do and "righteous"? Have you ever asked yourself why they appear to have no desire to better themself? I think everyone has a desire for something better but I think many have lost hope. They have been told they are no good worthless trash and have come to believe it is true and that no matter what they do they will never be any better. So they do nothing or nothing more than they always did. We are representitives of Christ we must assocoate with them and testify of the hope that is in us and we can not do that if we are not willing to waste our precious time and refuse to associate with those we judge to be unworthy. Remember we are all unworthy of His precious time and His precious blood but He has not refused to assocoate with us. How can we do any differerent and pretend to take his name on ourself? Tim

Anyone is welcome to pray for my forgiveness. I figure I need all the help I can get. :) Tim

I think it does mean that they are one in purpose like was said. I have thought for sometime though that there might be a deeper layer there too. Jesus prayed in John 17 that we might be one as He and His Father are one. That we might be one in them. He also refered to Himself as the vine and us the branches and that apart from teh vine we can not abide. It is Christ that literally makes us alive or lends us breath as King Benjamin said. I have wondered if maybe we are not in a sense part of God but have been made agents over a portion of God's power. He said what we do to the least of His bretheren we do to Him. If I damage a branch of a tree I have damaged the tree. Here are some verses I have pondered along these lines. I would live to hear your thoughts of these verses and what we really are. Tim DC 88: 47-50 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power. 48 I say unto you, he hath seen him; nevertheless, he who came unto his own was not comprehended. 49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. 50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

Robbie, I like the 12 steps first written by Alcoholics Anonomous founder Bill Wilson back in the 1930s. Here is step 8 and 9: 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. There is an LDS verson of these steps too from an organization called Heart to Heart that uses LDS scriptures in the steps. Here are steps 8 and 9 from them: 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make restitution to all of them (even those we had harmed in what we might have considered righteous anger) desiring instead to be peacemakers, and to do all that we could to come unto God by being first reconciled to our brothers. (3 Nephi 12:9; 3 Nephi 12:24; 3 Nephi 12:44-45) 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Made restitution directly to those we had harmed, confessing our own wrong doing in each instance, except when to do so would further injure them or others. (Mosiah 27:35; 3 Nephi 12:25; Mosiah 26:30) In my mind these are steps to repentence and living ad God would have us live. Notice in both versions it says "except when to do so would further injure them or others." It is by grace we are saved after all we can do. It seems to me from what you told us you have done all you can do that would not cause further harm. Also your wife is comanded like we all are to forgive. Would this be a temptation for her that she is not ready for? I cant tell you what to do except to fast and pray, you have the gift of the Holy Ghost though to guide you if you seek it. I think I would advise you that you have seen your weakness and it would be wise to be on guard and take steps to prevent anything like this from happening again because it may well go further next time. Those steps might include some kind of counseling perhaps for you and your wife. Good luck to you brother. Here are both versions of the 12 steps if you would like to read them. It says powerless over alcohol but any weakness can replace alcohol and we are all powerless over something. Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. I believe these 12 steps to repentence are steps unto Christ. Tim Original 12 steps 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. LDS Version 1. We admitted we were powerless over compulsive/addictive behaviors* -- that our lives had become unmanageable. Admitted that we of ourselves are powerless, nothing without God. (Mosiah 4:5; Alma 26:12) 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Came to believe that God has all power and all wisdom, and that in His strength we can do all things. (Mosiah 4:9; Alma 26:12) 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made the decision to reconcile ourselves to the will of God, offer our whole souls as an offering unto Him, and trust Him in all things forever. (2 Nephi 10:24; Omni 1:26; Mosiah 3:19, 2 Nephi 4:34) 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Made a searching and fearless written inventory of our past in order to thoroughly examine ourselves as to our pride and other weaknesses, with the intent of recognizing our own carnal state and our need for Christ's Atonement. (Alma 15:17; Mosiah 4:2; Jacob 4:6-7; Ether 12:27) 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Honestly shared this inventory with God and with another person thus demonstrating the sincerity of our repentance, and our willingness to give away all our sins that we might know Him. (Mosiah 26:29; Alma 22:18) 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Became humble enough to yield our hearts and our lives to Christ for His sanctification and purification, relying wholly upon His merits, acknowledging even our own best efforts as unprofitable. (Helaman 3:35, 2 Nephi 31:19; Mosiah 2:20-21) 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Humbly cried unto the Lord Jesus Christ, in our hearts, for a remission of sins, that through His mercy and His grace we might experience a mighty change of heart, lose all disposition to do evil and thus be encircled about in the arms of safety because of His great and last sacrifice. (Alma 36:18; Alma 38:8; Moroni 10:32; Mosiah 5:2; Alma 34:15-16) 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make restitution to all of them (even those we had harmed in what we might have considered righteous anger) desiring instead to be peacemakers, and to do all that we could to come unto God by being first reconciled to our brothers. (3 Nephi 12:9; 3 Nephi 12:24; 3 Nephi 12:44-45) 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Made restitution directly to those we had harmed, confessing our own wrong doing in each instance, except when to do so would further injure them or others. (Mosiah 27:35; 3 Nephi 12:25; Mosiah 26:30) 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. Realizing that the weakness to be tempted and to sin is a part of the mortal experience, we continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong promptly admitted it, being willing to repent as often as needed. (2 Nephi 4:18; 2 Nephi 10:20; Mosiah 26:30) 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, seeking the words of Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost, that they might tell us all things that we should do, praying only for a knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. (2 Nephi 32:3; Alma 37:37; Helaman 10:4) 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others still suffering from the effects of compulsive behaviors and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Having experienced a mighty change and having awakened unto God as a result of our sincere repentance demonstrated in taking these steps, we were willing to become instruments in carrying this message to others and to practice these principles in all our affairs. (Alma 5:7; Mosiah 27:36-37; Moroni 7:3) * Any problem may be inserted here in place of "compulsive/addictive behaviors."

Hey MamaCat, I hope you see this and come back because I think you are cool!! Tim

Kind of like "brave" George Dubyah invading Iraq for no apparent reason, and putting our soldiers' lives at risk? (And British soldiers', for that matter.) Iraq was not responsible for 9/11, after all. When I say the Queen was courageous, I didn't mean in the sense that her life is in danger, but that this move might engender the kind of criticism you're leveling at her. Yep "W" is another one of those "too many" who are being brave with other peoples lives in my opinion. And I hope I have not frightened the Queen and "W" too much by leveling that critisism at them. But if I did I am sure it doesnt come close to the fear I have that my son will be mixed up in "Ws" war! Again, the Queen was recognizing literary merit, and it may have had nothing to do with the Satanic Verses (Rushdie has written many other things). She may also be killing two birds with one stone by making a statement that we do not give in to extremists' demands. I think the military of both countries are making that statement loud and clear and see no need to inflame the people we have made our enemies further when it could make things more dangerous for our guys on the ground. You know the ones who are in danger of something more than a little criticism from a guy like me. Dror Like I said I dont mean to give you heat on this but that is just how I see it. Tim

Dror, I dont mean to be giving you heat here but I dont see how she is being courageous at all. Seems to me there is very little chance that any bomb toting idiot is going to get anywhere near her. Our trouble today is we have too many powerful people being brave with other people lives and showing those heathens who is boss all while they are safe and secure of course! Tim

We have homeschooled our children from the beginning. Our son 17 graduated this month a year early. He began taking dual enrollment classes at the local community college at 15 and now has 27 hours of college credit in which he has made "A" grades. He plans to have a two year degree before leaving on his mission and he does know that England is an island. :) On the social front he has a job and recently managed to go on his first date, so I dont think you can call him a social retard. :) Our daughter is 14 and begins high school this fall. Her plans are to finish highschool and attend Nursing school to become a labor and delivery nurse. She has excelled on the social front and we sometimes wish she were a bit less social but not really. She is a gifted people person and has the ability to make everyone feel comfortable and welcomed. We have been involved in a Co-op group that has allowed us to share the teaching and allowed the kids to form some very strong friendships with other adults and children. Homeschooling has been wonderful for us, the schools here are not very good but I think we would choose homeschooling again even if we had good schools. I dont say it is for everyone but I do think it should be there as a choice for everyone to consider. I also believe that the parents have a right to revelations from God as to what is best for their family in each situation so I dont second guess anyone's choice in educating their children. As for advice I would say in the early years turn off the TV and read to your child every chance you get and answer any questions he/she has. I think that is pretty good advice for older children too. :) Tim

Mammacat, Those are very cool quotes thanks! DrT, Animals are not the same as humans but they are living things made alive by the same God that lends us breath with feelings and a love of life just as we have. It is they that sustain us by giving their life so that we may live out the days of our probation. That is true even of the vegetarian for even plants are made alive by God and for us to live it causes their death. I think that is a consequence of the fall when death entered the world and though we cant change it I think surely it is ok if we show some reverence for these creatures that are our temporal saviours in a way. Jesus gave His life to save us from spiritual death, these creatures give their life every day to save us from temporal death. I think we do love the Creator by loving the creation just as sure as we serve God by serving our fellow man. I remember reading Carlos Castenada novels where the main character thanked every thing he ate for giving its life to sustain him. I think he is not far off there and it is a good thing to thank those whose life we take to sustain ourself as well as thanking the God that made us both. :) Perhaps I am just easily amused but here is something I find interesting to think about. The promised land is said to be, among other things, "a land flowing with milk and honey". Those are two foods that we have that dont cause the death of any living thing. I find it interesting that they are used to represent the promised land. Especially honey, the honey bee takes nectar from the flower and while doing so delivers pollen so the flower plant can reproduce. Neither the bee nor the plant is harmed and both benifit from the exchange, it is truely a win/win and I expect something like that must be possible for us in the millennium since we are told there will be no more death. Tim

Great web page Mammacat Thanks! Did you ever read "The Good Life" by Helen and Scott Nearing? My gardening adventures consist of a few things that we seem to always have success with. Peas, sweet potatos, squash, greens in the fall and tomatos. We dont do that well with tomatos but keep trying because we like them so much but everything on that short list seems to always do well here. The sweet potatos are cool because you just dry them for a while and put them in the pantry and they keep all winter! :) Tim

Ben as I read this it brought these verses to mind: Mark 12:41-44 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this apoor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. I am thankful for people in this world like Mr. Buffet and Mr and Mrs Gates and I think we all should be, they have used a portion the wealth they are stewards over to try and make the world a better place to live. They are recognized by the world as the generous people of good will that they are. We note from these verses that the rich are not the ones that caught the attention of our Lord. It is willingness to give, "even of our living", that gets the attention of the Master here. Tim

No doubt you may well be right about that Ben. I think this scripture speaks to that issue: D&C 56: 17 17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands! The fact that there are those that envy and are greedy for what they did not work for does in no way relieve those who have much because of their much indistry to make right choices with how they used it. The verse right before that one I think speaks to that also I think. : D&C 56:16 Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved! I think maybe it is always best to just remember nothing we have is actually ours not even our very lives because as King Benjamin said He is lending us breath moment to moment. And that should makes us give more thought to what would God have me do with His proprety? Please dont think I am condemning anyone here, I say this to myself more than anyone else. Tim

:thumbsup: i can't express how thrilled i was to learn of the LDS practice of home growing food and self-sustaining initiatives. i also love the community support for this. one of my favorite areas of interest is in organic and biodynamic gardening, as well as permaculture. this all fits so seamlessly with all the LDS practices i have found in these areas....cause for excitement for me. :) lol, i am enthralled with the unusual things i suppose. Mamacat, I believe that you and I are kindred spirits. I very much enjoyed the material you posted Thanks! Tim :) thank you very much Tim....i am so pleased that enjoyed it. do tell more about your garden.... I believe that was CrimsonKairos that spoke of his and his families garden not me. I do make an attemnpt at gardening though I am not very goos at it. Thanks again and thanks to you too Blessed it is good to know I am not the only one who thinks about and believes things like this! :) Tim Tim

There was a fellow once that was caught in a bar room carrying a pistol. The sherrif said to him "you know you are not supposed to be carrying that in here". The fellow said "yea I know but I would rather you catch me with it than some of these (explitive deleted) catch me without it." I dont like gun violence either or the thought of possibly needing to go armed but in this world today I am afraid to be without one myself and I think many feel the same way. Tim

a-train, I like your definition very much! I think we each have to make these decisions for ourself with the help of the Spirit and I think your guide line there is very helpful in finding the Spirit of God on the matter. Thanks! Tim

Yes free agancy is a wonderful thing and very much misunderstood I fear. I think it means I am an agent controlling someone elses property and I will one day be asked did I use it as They would have me do or did I consume it on my own lust? Tim

I would say no, yours alone makes little difference. But do you think that if every SUV in the U.S. was a smaller car that would cause less demand for fuel? And if it did, would that cause the price of fuel to drop? And if the cost of fuel droped would that be some relief to those on the lower income scale to be able to better aford the fuel they need? Or maybe be able to enjoy the luxury of a joy ride sometimes? I think the same principle applies to houses. Smaller houses use less energy and tend to lower the price which makes it easier on those making less money. If by enough people eating less meat less grain was fed to livestock, would that make it easier for those who can only aford beans and rice to feed themself because of lower prices? Just some things I think about. Everything really is connected to everything else. Everything we do has an effect on others. And I agree about wicked governments and excessive central government control causing much hardship but that in no way relieves me of the responsibility to choose right in the things I can control. And finally I am not making any judgements about what anyone else does or drives or lives in I am just working things out in my own mine, or trying to anyway. :) Tim

Now I hope you fellows are not including me among those ignorant (if not pure evil) socialist and communist. I never mentiioned any such thing. No sir not me I am on the sacred capitalism band wagon all the way to the bank just like yall are! All I was trying to do is ask, is there a point where we should voluntarly limit our consumption? Would that be pleasing to God? I really do wonder about why I am given so much in material blessings and what the Lord expects me to do with it. My work in this society and culture says I deserve it, yet God in His society and culture says I deserve nothing except death, that being the wages of my sin and all. I believe that maybe God didnt place a surplus in my hands because He thinks I am so great and wants me to have a great time. I think maybe it is to see if I will bless my neighbor with it. I agree that we should all work hard and that some are more productive than others even when both are doing their best. Judging by telestial law they do indeed deserve more for that productivity. Here are some more verses, out of context I suppose, but read them and think about them anyway if you will. Thanks! Tim D&C 38:24-26 24 And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practise virtue and holiness before me. 25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his abrother as himself. 26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

:thumbsup: i can't express how thrilled i was to learn of the LDS practice of home growing food and self-sustaining initiatives. i also love the community support for this. one of my favorite areas of interest is in organic and biodynamic gardening, as well as permaculture. this all fits so seamlessly with all the LDS practices i have found in these areas....cause for excitement for me. :) lol, i am enthralled with the unusual things i suppose. Mamacat, I believe that you and I are kindred spirits. I very much enjoyed the material you posted Thanks! Tim

Sixpacktr, I didnt mean to cast any stones here at all I just wanted some thoughts from others. I agree the Lord is happy when we pay tithing and a fast offering but it has always been my understanding that tithing was a lesser law though. Have I misunderstood that? Tim

Thanks Mamacat! I think that about the WOW too but had not heard that about Joseph. I have also wondered if perhaps Alma was vegetarian from reading these verses or was it maybe that he practiced the Old Testament diet laws and Amulek served un kosher meat? Guess there is no way to know but it makes me wonder. Tim Alma 8:21-22 21 And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma. 22 And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he blessed• Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.