Gun Control

[the_jason]

This topic was discussed in another thread as a result of the Virginia Tech massacre. The question I would like to pose is this: Is gun control the answer to preventing tragedies such as this?

My answer: It is not THE answer, but it is an answer. Other countries are getting it right. In England I believe it's even illegal for the police officers to carry guns. Canada is similar. I watched "Bowling for Colombine" a few years ago. Yes, I know it's rated R, and I've repented for it already.

Anyway, Michael Moore was in Detroit and showed all of the gun violence that takes place in that city. He then went just across the river into Montreal and showed people with unlocked doors, unlocked cars and no guns. People there saw no reason for it. They felt completely safe. Two cities right next door to each other, but in different countries, and different cultures.

No, gun control is not THE answer. Yes, people will find other ways to commit crimes. Gun control is a very good answer,though. Crime would be much lower without guns. Guns are too easily attainable. I used to love hunting, but I haven't been in years because I've changed my attitude towards guns. I will never own a gun. I will never have a gun in my house. The answer to protecting yourself from gun violence is not more guns. That will only make things worse. I don't even allow my kids to have toy guns. They are not as harmless as we think.

I'm sorry for rambling, but I felt I needed to speak my mind about this. The Virgina Tech shootings, or any other shooting, was not the fault of our President or anyone else. People are responsible for their actions and should be held accountable. However, our lawmakers need to change their ways about gun control. They've gotten too relaxed on this issue. Our constitution allows for the right to bear arms. Maybe it's time to ammend our constitution.

[Outshined]

No, it is not time to amend the Constitution. If you change one, it makes all fair game for alteration. The shortfall at VT was not about guns, it was about mental health; if that kid hadn't had a gun, he would have used bombs.

We don't need more gun laws; we just need enforcement of the ones we have. Gun-related charges are usually the first to go in a plea bargain.

[the_jason]

I've heard this topic a lot lately on radio talk shows. People have called in and said we don't need to get rid of guns. All we need is to make sure people are properly trained.

The problem I have with that is that in most of these school shootings the assassins knew full well how to use a gun. People who are well-trained can still be wackos with a short fuse. I don't think training will make matters any better.

[BenRaines]

Oh I thought this was about Gun Control. I look at gun control as hitting what I aim at.

There are over 50,000 people killed a year in alcohol related vehicle deaths. Not to mention how many are killed due to vehicle accidents a year that are not alcohol related. Now if we want to worry about something that is killing thousands of innocent people a year then lets talk about abolishing alcohol. Hey you can buy it and not even have to be mentally competent. You can buy it and be a felon.

It makes great news but there are much greater threats to the average human life, children and babies as well from cars and alcohol. Kill someone while drunk driving and get 5 years. Use a gun and get 15 to life.

Something is wrong here. I guess the alcohol industry has better lobbyists than the gun industry.

Ben Raines

[the_jason]

Ben I'm not saying gun violence is the only issue that we are faced with. There are countless ways to improve the safety and well-being of citizens. I am merely offering gun control as one of these problems as it is most recent and most talked about, and probably affects a larger body of people.

[Blessed]

Outshined, can you explain how they should be enforced more?

[JcDean78]

Heck NO!!!

You will get my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead hand.

The 2nd is as important as the 1st.

Instead of writing a 50 page rant in this thread, I will simply direct you to the other thread that has already covered all of this and then some.

[BenRaines]

Sorry TJ, my comments were not directed at your post but at the thread in general. I believe that many more people are impacted by alcohol and drug related crime than by gun crime and that the root again is not the guns but the drug and alcohol crime.

If not with a gun then with a knife, with a baseball bat, with explosives, a car. Where do we stop?

This is a very old quote but still applies. "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."

Ben Raines

[TimA.]

There was a fellow once that was caught in a bar room carrying a pistol. The sherrif said to him "you know you are not supposed to be carrying that in here". The fellow said "yea I know but I would rather you catch me with it than some of these (explitive deleted) catch me without it."

I dont like gun violence either or the thought of possibly needing to go armed but in this world today I am afraid to be without one myself and I think many feel the same way.

Tim

[Outshined]

Outshined, can you explain how they should be enforced more?

Sure; most states have specific penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime. In too many cases, they throw the gun charges out if the person will plea guilty to another charge. Or if it is a first offense it may be downgraded to something milder. Make the penalties for gun crime mandatory so they aren't swept away and people understand that it is unacceptable.

[a-train]

It's always the same arguements.

Here is mine: I am a nasty American and own guns! I love 'em! I was raised on Clint Eastwood pictures and shot stuff like crazy as a kid. I'll never grow out of it, and the pouty-pants so-called liberals can choke for all I care. I'm here, I'm packing, get used to it!

If Michael Moore likes Canada so much, then why doesn't he move!

I visit my wife's family in Arkansas regularly and they rarely lock their house. They leave the keys in the ignition of their cars in the driveway because carrying the keys around is just too burdensome. They own guns and live in the heart of the good 'ol USA. Arguements about gun control making Canada superior somehow are nonsense.

Did Michael Moore mention the fatal April 29, 1999 school shooting in Alberta?

Perhaps the statistics show this nation is full of criminal minded persons, but the availabilty of guns isn't the cause.

-a-train

[Blessed]

The gun was available to Cho and laws did not scare him into thinking it was unacceptable.

Guns are created for the sole intent in bringing harm to something or someone. And it seems to me that irregardless of Cho's mental state... he had access to a gun he should not have access to. IMO. (yes, I know I am in the minority on this... again.)

[Outshined]

The gun was available to Cho and laws did not scare him into thinking it was unacceptable.

Exactly; if they were banned, he would still have gotten one or just built some bombs. As I said, the failure in his case was society ignoring signs of serious mental illness, not gun laws.

[Blessed]

Outshined, on this topic I will just have to say I agree to disagree and leave the spin for another day. :-)

[a-train]

Did anyone hear about the shooting spree at Ward Parkway Mall in Kansas City? Look: Article

The shooter was stopped by police who shot him.

-a-train

[Latter Days Guy]

The original poster mentioned that the police in the UK don't carry guns, this is true to some extend. The police officers you will encounter on the street do not carry firearms but there are armed response units which can be called upon and will be on the scene of an incident in pretty quick time.

You cannot really compare the UK with the US, as in the UK there has not been the same level of gun ownership as there is in the US. Here it has mainly been hunting rifles and shotguns available and until about 10 years ago handguns. Handguns were banned in the UK after a shooting at a school where a lot of very young children were killed, the public outcry was such that a law was passed within a very short time that banned the ownership of any handguns. I believe that there is a severe prison sentence given in the UK for anyone caught with a handgun in their possession, I think its about 10 years in custody, but I could be wrong so will have to check.

[Dr T]

If I was an officer and looking down the barrel of a gun, I would not want to be without. "OK bad guy, wait for me to call for armed backup before you shoot me please." Doesn't seem too safe to me.

[Latter Days Guy]

If I was an officer and looking down the barrel of a gun, I would not want to be without. "OK bad guy, wait for me to call for armed backup before you shoot me please." Doesn't seem too safe to me.

We don't get that type of gun crime very often in the UK, most gun crime in the UK is organised crime syndicates killing off the opposition or gangs shooting at each other. I cannot remember the last time I read or saw on the news of a police officer facing down an armed suspect.

[a-train]

An article about a racist from North London who only 19 days after getting community punishment for 'racially-aggravated assault' went on a shooting spree: The Independent

This guy's priors (10 years of violent crime) certainly showed signs of irrational violent tendencies and he was still able to do the killings with a gun in the U.K.

Another article tells of a 16-year old Manchester boy who allegedly killed his 12-year old sister with a 'Section 1' firearm: The Independent

Police have yet to release the specifics of the firearm, but whatever it was, it was illegal to possess. A follow up article from today reports the '16-year-old boy has been charged with murder, possession of a Section 1 firearm and possession of Section 1 ammunition.'

Arguements about the possible means by which the teenager obtained the weapon and the failures on the part of his parents will only further demonstrate that the laws prohibiting his possession of the weapon were useless in saving the girl's life.

The prohibition of alcohol as previously mentioned was attempted in the US in the early 20th Century but found to be unenforceable. There are a great many restrictions on weapons in the US, but this doesn't keep criminals from having them. A blind reliance on the proper and universal enforcement of the law by our government officers has historically proven to be hopeful fantasy. They just can't catch all the crooks. And, they certainly can't foresee tragedies like the one in Manchester.

-a-train

[Dr T]

Places in the US see police as targets, gang initiation. In Phoenix, the probation officers all were bullet proof vests now too.

[BenRaines]

When I was a police officer I never put on my uniform without my bullet-proof vest and weapon. When it was 112 degrees outside I still had it on. Also a bullet-proof vest is only as good as the person shooting at you. It attempts to protect vital organs but does nothing for your head or main arteries in the legs and neck. Sides too are exposed.

I see articles about badge heavy police officers and it hurts. In most cases if you are obeying the law you have nothing to fear from the police. Traffic laws included.

Ben Raines

[JcDean78]

I do not know about the traffic part. There are cops around here that bait. I have seen them riding peoples bumpers, cutting people off, and other general harasment. The big tactic around here is they get on your bumper to try and make you speed up. Once you do, they pull you over and ticket.

I understand that is not the case with all officers but I see that crap way to much and I wish the laws for the road were loosened so the cops would back off on them.

[BenRaines]

See that is the difference in driving styles. If someone wants to ride my bumper I will slow down more and more or pull over and let them pass. I can't imagine all the police officers down there riding everyones bumper. Here in Las Vegas I could be employed full time just pulling over speeders doing 25 mph over the posted speed limit and fund another 10 officers. I wouldn't have time for lunch with as many lawbreakers as we have here.

Ben Raines

Oh and not just Las Vegas City. I drive a lot in the state and in Utah and in California. I could make a ton of money in any one of the states just with speeders.

[the_jason]

Sorry TJ, my comments were not directed at your post but at the thread in general. I believe that many more people are impacted by alcohol and drug related crime than by gun crime and that the root again is not the guns but the drug and alcohol crime.

If not with a gun then with a knife, with a baseball bat, with explosives, a car. Where do we stop?

This is a very old quote but still applies. "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."

Ben Raines

Fine. Then start a post about alcohol and drug related crimes. This one is about gun control.

[Outshined]

Actually I felt Ben's comments related directly to the subject.