Garden of Eden...in Missouri?

[jinc1019]

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (Joseph Smith Jr.; History of the Church 5:340)

Wow...great quote.

[jinc1019]

No assertion as to Eden's location makes sense based on the Genesis account.

Not quite. It says that a river ran out of Eden and fed those two rivers of which you speak (one of which runs on to Assyria), and two more rivers which Josephus identified as being some thousands of miles away.

There is no such central river. There is no location that fits the plain meaning of the text as it stands in Genesis..

It's like finding an ancient text saying that Atlantis is located at the confluence of the Mississippi and Sacramento rivers, and therefore insisting that Atlantis must have been located in the present-day United States.

Joseph Smith's proposed location amplifies that conundrum; but it does not create it. The geography proposed in the Bible itself does that.

So, don't. It's not a litmus test for Church membership. :)

What does it say about the author of Genesis?

All fair points...However, I think you have proved my point for me. If Atlantis was said to be located at the confluence of the Mississippi and Sacramento rivers, then you are correct that we couldn't pinpoint where that is today...But you know what we could do? Rule out that Atlantis was located at the mouth of the Danube or Yangtze! That's my point. I am not saying the Genesis account is clear about where Eden is...but it makes it clear that if Eden was a literal place, it wasn't in Missouri, or anywhere else outside of the region that encompasses those two rivers.

I agree that no such place exists today...but that doesn't mean it didn't once exist, and if it did, it wouldn't have been near Missouri. If it were, Assyria would never have been mentioned.

[Just_A_Guy]

All fair points...However, I think you have proved my point for me. If Atlantis was said to be located at the confluence of the Mississippi and Sacramento rivers, then you are correct that we couldn't pinpoint where that is today...But you know what we could do? Rule out that Atlantis was located at the mouth of the Danube or Yangtze! That's my point. I am not saying the Genesis account is clear about where Eden is...but it makes it clear that if Eden was a literal place, it wasn't in Missouri, or anywhere else outside of the region that encompasses those two rivers.

Maybe it's just a difference in our approaches to interpretation. I would conclude that the source's assertion is so nonsensical that the author was at best being allegorical and quite possibly misinformed; and therefore we can't really draw any geographical conclusions from it.

[jinc1019]

I would conclude that the source's assertion is so nonsensical that the author was at best being allegorical and quite possibly misinformed; and therefore we can't really draw any geographical conclusions from it.

I think that's a pretty good explanation of a chief difference between Mormons and Protestants!

I am not one of those people who believes in a literal Garden of Eden anyway, so it's not a big deal to me...I did, however, find it interesting because it seems like Joseph Smith was a believer in a literal Garden of Eden and the way he approached the issue certainly has led to problems for those who support the view, even if those problems are very small.

I am not sure how I feel about this. I will have to think about it more deeply.

[Finrock]

The Garden of Eden, on Earth?

-Finrock

[mnn727]

I'm really not 100% sure Joseph ever said the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, he did say that when Adam and Eve were kicked out they were taken/led to Adam-ondi-Ahman (which is in Missouri)

[jinc1019]

I'm really not 100% sure Joseph ever said the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, he did say that when Adam and Eve were kicked out they were taken/led to Adam-ondi-Ahman (which is in Missouri)

Is this in the D&C or is this just tradition or in some other form of writing?

[Guest Doctrine]

I'm really not 100% sure Joseph ever said the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, he did say that when Adam and Eve were kicked out they were taken/led to Adam-ondi-Ahman (which is in Missouri)

I agree with this.

They left the garden and then offered sacrifice at Adam ond I Ahman two diffrent locations.

[Just_A_Guy]

Is this in the D&C or is this just tradition or in some other form of writing?

D&C 116 names the (Missouri) location of Adam-ondi-Ahman as the place where where Adam will, at a future date, meet his posterity. D&C 107:53 states that in ancient times Adam did with his faithful posterity in a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman three years before his death.

Every non-scriptural source I've ever read assumes that these two places called Adam-ondi-Ahman are the same place; but it just hit me--as Mormons many of us subscribe to a "two Cumorah" theory; so why not two Adam-ondi-Ahmans?

[mnn727]

Is this in the D&C or is this just tradition or in some other form of writing?

As far as I know this is the only canonized mention of Adam ondi-Ahman

D&C 116:1

1 Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

A Google search led me to this from the BYU Harold B Lee library:

In May 1838 Joseph Smith led surveyors to a horseshoe bend of the Grand River, seventy miles north of present-day Kansas City, and proclaimed a new community, which he named Adam-ondi-Ahman because, said he, "it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the Prophet" (HC 3:35; D&C 116). Orson Pratt interpreted the name to mean "Valley of God, where Adam dwelt" (JD 18:343).

So it appears Orson Pratt (who was well known for making sweeping statements with little hard evidence) may have been the one who started the idea - or at least made it popular. I find a lot of things that say Joseph said that but no actual referenced quotes.

Either way 1. what does it have to do with our salvation? and 2. If God is capable of making planets, moving/removing the G of E should be a piece of cake.

Edited November 9, 2013 by mnn727

[jinc1019]

Ok...so the Garden of Eden (it appears) was definitely said to be located in Missouri by Smith, but there is no clear statement of that in the D&C. However, the evidence does suggest within the D&C Smith revealed that Adam would return to a location in Missouri, and that location is said to be near the Garden of Eden. I think I have it down...but correct me if I am wrong.

[dahlia]

There is nothing that clearly connects modern geography with anyplace mentioned before the time of Noah in the Bible. Adam who lived for hundreds of years could have easily traveled the world several times over. Just because Noah and his descendants settled near the middle east doesn't mean that everyone prior to that lived there.

You know, I never thought of it that way before.

Darn I love this Church! Every time I think Mormons have gone off the deep end, I get sucked back in.

[Blackmarch]

Of all the claims anti-Mormons make about Joseph Smith, this one seems to me to be one of the most valid criticisms. I realize that no one really knows where the Garden of Eden is, thus any place could hypothetically be the Garden of Eden, it still seems very unlikely (to say the least) that it would be in Missouri of all places. I am not at all trying to trash Mormonism. I want to be as fair as I possibly can...As I said before, I am quite impressed by much of the evidence I have seen about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, but this one...this is hard to understand.

How do Mormons generally understand this teaching? Do Mormons really accept that the Garden of Eden is in/near Missouri? If so, how do you explain all the other early events of the Bible occurring in locations much further away (Israel and Middle East)?

I am very interested to hear what Mormons think about this.

Justin

its as good as any other spot. according to the bible adam was alive before the land was split and thers nothing anywhere that says where it was or how big it was or how far out Adam and eve were kicked. We accept its there because thats what Joseph Smith was told in a revelation.