White Shirts And Ties

[shanstress70]

In our current branch we have women coming to church in pants. I have a hard time with that.

Why? And it shouldn't matter if YOU have a hard time with that... they aren't there to please you. They are there to worship God. Obviously, it's their opinion that God doesn't concern Himself with such petty details.

You say you aren't judging them, but that's exactly what your statement does when you give your two possible reasons for them wearing... GASP!... pants.

[sixpacktr]

Shanstress,

I knew that as I wrote that that there would be those that would respond as you did. That somehow I have the problem.

I know that the Lord looks upon the heart. If that were all they had to wear, then it doesn't matter one whit what I think. But again, if your heart is right before the Lord, why would you want to be casual in your Sunday worship? If my heart is pure, then I want my outside to show that as well. It is a natural correlation in my mind. My heart is pure, but I want to come casual because...it is easy for me?

I fear you all think that perhaps I LOVE white shirts and ties and dresses (well, not for me...). I hate wearing a tie. I feel like I'm being strangled the entire time. Can't wait for the resurrection, with the robe and sandals or barefoot! Talk about the ultimate in comfort!

But I wear what I do, and I feel that others should as well, because they should NOT be casual in their approach to the Lord. I don't expect tuxedos and evening wear to church--in fact, I feel that is wrong because of the pride in apparel problem. But men should wear a white shirt and tie, and women dresses, to show the Lord that they respect him as well. I don't expect to appear before the Lord at my judgment day in my greasy overalls and dirty hands, just like I came in from working on the cars, because I want him to know I respect him enough to get "gussied up". It doesn't show that I feel I'm better than others, but that he is worthy of my respect.

[BenRaines]

Are there incidents of prejudice and or pride? Sure there are. Is it widespread in the church? I think not. I was a branch president in a small tourist country where the majority that attended church were working as housekeepers and nannys. They were not looked down on. Most of the women put on their finest clothes to go to church. Finest in each country and for each person is a different thing.

I have given many temple recommend interviews and had a few given to me. Questions are the same in the US as they are in other countries. As a matter of fact they are printed in the recommend book where blank recommends are. If other questions are asked they are asked by the leader but are not part of the actual interview. The book even says that they are to be asked just as they are and not modified.

Ben Raines

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't wear a suit and tie to change how other people look at me.

I wear a suit a tie to change how I look at myself.

How we dress does affect our behavior. Yes people can dress casual and be nicer than people who dress formally. Not the issue.

People who come to Church in flip-flops do make me roll my metaphorical eyes. Let me qualify that statement: when the girls I know who come to Church in flip-flops are the daughters of the wealthy Bishop...that's pretty disrespectful to God if you ask me. Flip-flops? In the chapel?

It's not what they are, it's that they are distracting from the reverence and solemnity which ought to prevail as we partake of the emblems of the death of our Savior.

Do I think those flip-flop-wearers are unrighteous, or shouldn't go to the temple, or can't have the sacrament, or ought to be chastised, or aren't as good as me, or that God doesn't love them, etc...?

Of course not.

An undercurrent in this thread is: What's the minimum I have to do to "get by," and "please the silly leadership." Why not have the attitude of, "What's the cleanest, most respectful, most dignified way I can enter the Lord's house and pay my respects and worship to him?"

I think the Lord usually gets the short end of the stick. We'll wear our best to court and business meetings to show respect and deference to temporal authority, but the Lord? Ah, he understands, he'd want us to be loose and do what feels good right?

The issue is not one of what you wear, but if you have a choice of what to wear.

[shanstress70]

But again, if your heart is right before the Lord, why would you want to be casual in your Sunday worship?

Because God doesn't care about clothing... at least that's my belief. I understand where all are you are coming from, and as much as I respect your beliefs, I couldn't disagree MORE. :) And it's not that I don't think God is worthy of me dressing up for Him. If I thought he cared, I would wear a formal gown! I just truly don't think He cares. In fact, I don't even think He notices what we have on. He sees US... not our clothing. It's fabric we put on our bodies to cover ourselves... not something with which to show respect. I pay respect to Him by focusing on prayer and worship.

All my humble opinions.

CK, why do flip-flops bother you? Why do they detract from the sacrament? You are human and you see them, and it bothers you due to your human nature. God does not care about such petty things. Would you roll your eyes if someone walked in with sandals similar to the ones Jesus is always portrayed wearing?

[Palerider]

Living here in the Bible belt in southern Missouri we have some members that come to church and I will tell you ...they don't have alot...under employed etc....The way I see it....we are asked to wear our sunday best to church. If a person comes to church and all they have is a pair of jeans and a flannel shirt...then thats their sunday best. What also has been really awesome is that when they come dressed like that...after a period of time goes by....they happen to find some nicer clothes on their door step.....and guess what....they start wearing those clothes to church and they have a big smile on their face. Wonder where those clothes came from....

[StrawberryFields]

Another thing has occurred to me.

I used to sell a product called Home Interiors and Gifts and I did so for 12 years.

One of the things I learned while selling products to people is that when I looked nicer I did better. Have you ever had one of those days where you just felt ugly? Did it have something to do with what you were wearing.... I know that when I know I look good, that my clothes are especially different than my day to day clothes I feel different. When I went to the home parties where I sold my products I had a uniform of sorts. The same goes for when I go to church, I have some clothes that just shout church or wedding. :)

[a-train]

I couldn't tell you what my own wife wore last Sunday...

...even though she must have asked a dozen times if her outfit looked alright.

Attention Wives:

On behalf of the husbands of the world:

YOU LOOK FINE! REALLY!!

WE MEAN IT!!!

THAT IS WHY WE MARRIED YOU!!

YOU LOOK GREAT!!!

REALLY!!!!

YES!!!!

REALLY!!!!

WE'RE SURE!!!!

YES!!!!!!

YES, WE'RE SURE!!!!!!

FINE!!!!!

YES!!!!!!

THE SHOES TOOO!!!!!!

YES!!!!!

WE SAW THE EARRINGS!!!!

YES!!!

THEY ARE FINE!!!!

HAIR?!?!?

YES, THE HAIR IS GREAT!!!!

FINE!!!!

YES, PERFECT!!!!

LIPSTICK IS THE RIGHT COLOR!!!

YES!!!!

IT'S FINE!!

YES YOU ARE FINE!!!!

I just don't look at what the people in Sunday meetings are wearing, I guess.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Shan, the reason the flip-flops bother me is a compound one:

1) They make an annoying, loud "flap, flap, flap" sound as girls walk with them, when the flip-flop smacks against their heel...Sacrament meeting isn't a beach picnic...

2) They annoy me because this girl has "nicer" clothes, but apparently doesn't think the Lord is worth cleaning herself up for. Yet she'll get all cleaned up for prom...gimme a break.

I do believe God sees what we wear (kinda' goes with the whole "omniscience" thing ), and I do believe He cares how we present ourselves.

'Berry, I agree with your comments...how we dress can powerfully affect how we feel and behave.

Ultimately, it bothers me that people dress in their best for weddings, proms, parties, meetings, social functions, et al, but they don't think the Lord is worth the effort.

I mean, he bled from every pore and hung on a cross for us. Least we can do is show respect by wearing our best to Church (whatever our best may be).

[Aphrodite]

I'm not disagreeing with you guys here, just stating my opinion... I truly think God could care less about the clothing we wear to church. It's what's in your heart that matters. Also, I have never seen a pic of Jesus without facial hair, or with short hair.

With all the things to worry about, I honestly don't even think He knows what we're wearing, or if we have tattoos or piercings. It's trivial details that say nothing about who we are.

As far as me wearing my best for Him... I try to get my best attitude for Him before going to church, although my church is largely casual.

People who wear khaki's, or even jeans or shorts to church are no less sincere in their desire to worship God. Trust me, I've known many people who dress to the nines who are the most shallow people I've encountered! I think God would rather them change what's in their hearts, rather than to worry about the clothing they have on.

Shan I agree with you. The church seems to be obsessed with image one way or another, and really, I dont think God could care less. Im sure he loves me and is concerned for my eternal soul-not whether Im wearing flip flops or heels to church. My husband refused to wear a side parting on his mission. He said it looked silly, it was an American fashion, and irrelevant. His mission president told him he would not progress on his mission from a junior companion unless he wore a side parting. I cant tell you how much that angered me. What has that got to do with anything???? Basically the mission president was playing God-Ill tell you to do this and you must to prove your obedience. What if he told him to wear underwear on his head to 'test' his obedience? Its ridiculous. To prove the point, Rob still refused after he made an EXAMPLE of him in Zone conference, a new mission president came in, actually cared about missionary work, not Robs hair style, and within weeks he was a zone leader. And I dont get the earrings thing in women either. Why only one pair? Would people (shock horror) think any less of us? Does it look silly/messy/extreme? No. I say to Rob when I die and face the Lord, and could say Lord, were you bothered that I had two earrings? Does anyone really think he would say, oh yes it mattered so much. I was so upset by it, and it will affect your eternal salvation. Gimme a break.

[sixpacktr]

CK,

Totally, totally nailed it. And I believe that is why we are encouraged to follow the example of the GAs.

Last stake I was in, almost all of the youth dances were casual. The kids acted like idiots. They truly did. Mosh pit dancing, grind and bump (yes, all at a church dance). The stake before the kids were required to wear Sunday best (shirts and ties for the YM, dresses for the YW). Completely different. The dances were, well, almost reverent. No problems with kids trying to sneak away for a quick make out session.

So we had a formal dance at the 1st stake I mentioned. Guess what. The kids acted as they dressed. Dignified, courteous, we didn't have to chase them around.

Whether you like it or not, clothes reflect you inner self. Even the poorest, with a pure heart, will dress to look nice. And others are WAY TO CASUAL in their approach to the Lord.

Money has nothing to do with it...

[shanstress70]

I do believe God sees what we wear (kinda' goes with the whole "omniscience" thing ), and I do believe He cares how we present ourselves.

When I say He doesn't see what we're wearing, I mean He doesn't even think it's worth noticing. Much like he doesn't see what color our hair is, because it's a meaningless detail.

But I agree to disagree, CK.

[sixpacktr]

Shan I agree with you. The church seems to be obsessed with image one way or another, and really, I dont think God could care less. Im sure he loves me and is concerned for my eternal soul-not whether Im wearing flip flops or heels to church. My husband refused to wear a side parting on his mission. He said it looked silly, it was an American fashion, and irrelevant. His mission president told him he would not progress on his mission from a junior companion unless he wore a side parting. I cant tell you how much that angered me. What has that got to do with anything???? Basically the mission president was playing God-Ill tell you to do this and you must to prove your obedience. What if he told him to wear underwear on his head to 'test' his obedience? Its ridiculous. To prove the point, Rob still refused after he made an EXAMPLE of him in Zone conference, a new mission president came in, actually cared about missionary work, not Robs hair style, and within weeks he was a zone leader. And I dont get the earrings thing in women either. Why only one pair? Would people (shock horror) think any less of us? Does it look silly/messy/extreme? No. I say to Rob when I die and face the Lord, and could say Lord, were you bothered that I had two earrings? Does anyone really think he would say, oh yes it mattered so much. I was so upset by it, and it will affect your eternal salvation. Gimme a break.

Aphrodite,

Again, you miss the point. It IS about obedience! A prophet of the Lord, who you have sustained, I assume, has stated that women should only have one piercing. Guess what? My wife had two. She wondered what the big deal was. But she obeyed. To her, once the prophet speaks, you follow. You don't quibble if he is acting like a man or acting like a prophet. Why play that game?

Will the Lord care if you wore two earrings? Probably not. Will he care that you decided to flout the counsel of a prophet? You bet your sweet bibby he will.

And no amount of rationalization will work at that day.

[CrimsonKairos]

Fair enough, Shan. B)

Aphrodite, it's this "why should I have to do this, or this, or this," attitude that can cripple us personally. I mean, if we can't stick to one ear piercing for sisters or whatever equivalent for brethren, how in the world are we supposed to obey when the big things come along? No offense to your husband, but the mission story kind of amuses me. I assume we're talking about how he parted or combed his hair? Sheesh, if the mission pres. wants the missionaries to part their hair on the side, um...why not take five extra seconds and change the direction of the comb in the morning? Good grief! As much as you can say, "It's not a big deal so why should the mission pres. care so much about it?" I can say, "It's not a big deal so why should the elders get all worked up about it?"

I know, I know, it's different, you're not like everyone else...gotcha. B)

[Gwen]

<div class='quotemain'>

I do believe God sees what we wear (kinda' goes with the whole "omniscience" thing ), and I do believe He cares how we present ourselves.

When I say He doesn't see what we're wearing, I mean He doesn't even think it's worth noticing. Much like he doesn't see what color our hair is, because it's a meaningless detail.

But I agree to disagree, CK.

this kinda bothers me. i guess that is where i find comfort in knowing/believeing god is my father, he is a personal god, that knows me and cares about me, in every way, even if that means he only cares cause i care. as a parent i notice what my kids wear, and it matters to me. i don't want my daughter going out dressed in such a way that the only thing the boys think when they see her is sex. that's not ok. we are children of god. he doesn't feel the same about us? even if we seem to think we are all grown up and can decide for ourselves. i love to see my boys in their suits for chruch on sunday, when we go to do our family pict in our sunday best ppl always ask if we are going to a wedding later. that kills me, they get shocked when i tell them that is their everyweek sunday clothes. ppl have lost some formality, youth don't know how to have a sit down cloth napkin dinner. my sis said she went to a ces broadcast that the focus was on formality. they were having to tell the young adults to not wear jeans to a wedding reception, they should wear their best. they have to be told this? doesn't bother anyone else? we do care what we wear, it's important to us (therefore important to our father). if it weren't important we wouldn't have comments like a-train's or sf's, the one's about many many reassurances of looking nice or that of feeling better and being more suscessful when dressed nicer. it does make a difference. i've taken seminars in school about test taking skills, they said more than getting up early to review the material, get up and dress nice, take the time to groom yourself, wear something you look and feel good in, that will help your scores more than that last min cram session. aparently dress matters.

now i am in no way saying we should exclude someone from a meeting becasue they don't have the same clothes i do. yes the person is far more important than the clothes, and ultimatly that is what god will judge us on, who we are. was it our best, in thought and action? so no we shouldn't judge or critisize others for what they wear. we should accept their best and love them. but we should encourage their best, what we wear does matter, and i think god does care. again the person and them feeling loved is far more improtant than any clothes.

my mother recounted one of her earliest memories as a child reguarding chruch, i could still sense her hurt as she shared it. she had a very poor childhood. she went to chruch when she could (this was a non lds chruch btw) but never had the nice clothes. someone gave her a red and white dress, it was almost new. the closest thing she had to a new dress her entire childhood. she was so proud of it, couldn't wait to wear it to chruch. she got there and was asked to sit outside on the step. she couldn't be there in that dress because red was the color harlets wore, or so she was told. she was to young to know what a harlet was. she sat on the steps, in her finest clothes she ever owned, feeling pretty and had no idea why she was unacceptable. i believe that preacher will account for his actions. as will all those who have better, know better, and refuse becasue we'd like to make a point. even the little things matter. the reason behind what we do will often be judged with greater importance than the action itself, in my opinion.

on the ear peircings, not to get off topic, but that can have greater reason than apperance preference alone. it can be a very self distructive act. my brother has many peircings and tattoos, even has a hole in his ear you can stick a pencil into. he and i were discussing cutting. i had an experiance that allowed me to understand the emotions behind that (something that always eluded me). he shared something with me. he said, i've never cut but my tattoos are a form of that. when life is just to much that is his way of dealing with it. each one has some kind of significance (most positive) for him, he takes the negative pain (cuts so to speak through the pain of the tattoo) and replaces it with an image that has meaning for him. he said the hole in his ear is the same, each time things were to much that is when he would expand the hole or would get another peircing. it changed how i saw his lifesyle, how i viewed his apperance. it goes way beyond a personal preference. i know that isn't the case for everyone, that is his situation, but it also gives me a different perspective on the impact of such things on a person. i can see wisdom in the guidence from our prophet.

[shanstress70]

ALMom, I just don't agree. I still don't see the importance of it. Not to be rude, but who cares if our kids don't sit down to a formal dinner with cloth napkins? Or wear a suit? Surely God doesn't care about that. That's OK if you do, of course, but it has nothing to do with spirituality... just an individual preference you have.

And when I say that He doesn't care about what I'm wearing, I don't mean that He doesn't care about me personally... just not my clothing. He instead cares about the neighbor that I cooked for who just had a baby, or the visit I made to my friend who has cancer. Now I agree that He may care if I go out looking sluttish, but that's not what I'm talking about. I have a pair of khakis and a nice long-sleeved polo. I feel very good about myself when I wear that outfit... and comfortable. I think God is OK with it too. And I feel great wearing it to church.

That story about your mom is very sad. To me, it drives my point home. It's all about us - mankind - that makes us want to dress up. God doesn't care what we wear to church. How said that someone has to feel bad about not being dressed 'right'.

When I was a new convert to the LDS church, I remember my MIL saying to me that Sister "A" wears pants bc she was abused as a child and doesn't like to wear dresses bc of it. So they all have an understanding and don't say anything to her about it. I was thinking, "What have I joined here? Why would they care to begin with?" That was the first I had heard about the 'understanding' that women wear a dress to church. I don't get the whole thing about women having to wear dresses. Some pantsuits look way nicer than some dresses I've seen. Who's to say what's the 'nicest' clothing you own? It's all relative.

[a-train]

In my whole life, I have yet to be pulled aside by a priesthood leader to be asked to change my appearance.

I have shown up to church meetings in casual attire. I have had my hair long past my shoulders. I served my mission without ever having a part in my hair. On one occasion on my mission, through a mix up with the clipper gaurds, I ended up with a cut that made me look more US army than Gods army. My Mission President laughed, I received no reprimand. I have attended the Temple in casual clothing, I didn't get a lecture from the temple President.

I don't believe for a second that our church leaders are absorbed with appearance. But they are trying to keep us from being absorbed with appearance. If priesthood holders are asked to wear a white shirt, then who is more absorbed?

The LORD and His servants who ask a white shirt? or The man who must absolutely wear blue because white doesn't bring out his eyes just right?

Now imagine any scenario:

The LORD and His servants who ask one set of earrings? or The woman who cannot display enough bling in just two holes and therefore requires four to get the bling she needs?

The Mission President who asks the Elders for a certain haircut? or The Elder who just can't do that cut because the one he prefers seems to make the shape of his head look more proportioned?

The Young Women's leadership who ask that the girls wear dresses? Or the girl who just doesn't want to look like all the rest, but feels she will stand out and look a lot cooler in these pants she just found on sale?

Who is really absorbed with appearances?

-a-train

[shanstress70]

Now imagine any scenario:

The LORD and His servants who ask one set of earrings? or The woman who cannot display enough bling in just two holes and therefore requires four to get the bling she needs?

The Mission President who asks the Elders for a certain haircut? or The Elder who just can't do that cut because the one he prefers seems to make the shape of his head look more proportioned?

The Young Women's leadership who ask that the girls wear dresses? Or the girl who just doesn't want to look like all the rest, but feels she will stand out and look a lot cooler in these pants she just found on sale?

Who is really absorbed with appearances?

-a-train

I think that in your examples, the church leadership (sorry, but I can't lump God in there bc I don't think He cares) and the people in question are equally concerned with appearance. The difference being that the member is concerning him/herself with only his/her appearance, and the leaders concerning themselves with not only their own appearance, but everyone in the church.

[Aphrodite]

I know, I know, it's different, you're not like everyone else...gotcha.

Did anyone else hear me say that? No me neither However, no I am not like everyone else-neither are you, or shan, or anyone on this board. We are all different. That's the way God made us. The Lord made us all different shapes, sizes, personalities and attitudes for a reason. We all express our personalities in different ways. The leaders of the church as shan said, (not the Lord because this isnt anything to do with him, its the leaders own opinions and whims meted out on the rest of us), have this image that THEY want the members of the church to convey-not the Lord, them. THEY want men to have clean cut appearances, THEY want all women to wear pretty dresses to church with one pair of earrings, THEY want men to wear white shirts and ties etc. I think certain leaders, not all, abuse their positions to ensure all members do certain things, and then fob us all off with, 'well its obedience thats the issue', so that you dont or cant argue back, when really its all about them having power. I have mentioned in a previous thread my faith in leaders has been massively shaken through a number of personal experiences, so I find it difficult to trust little things like the issues we have been talking about as I find it very hard to believe that it comes from the Lord. If a leader tells me to pray, to forgive, to pay tithing etc, fine, I know that comes from the Lord as thats what the church is all about. When they say, you cant wear certain shoes or jewellery or have a certain hairstyle I think hmmm...is that what the Lord really wants??

The LORD and His servants who ask one set of earrings? or The woman who cannot display enough bling in just two holes and therefore requires four to get the bling she needs?

The Mission President who asks the Elders for a certain haircut? or The Elder who just can't do that cut because the one he prefers seems to make the shape of his head look more proportioned?

The Young Women's leadership who ask that the girls wear dresses? Or the girl who just doesn't want to look like all the rest, but feels she will stand out and look a lot cooler in these pants she just found on sale?

Who is really absorbed with appearances?

a-train this has nothing to do with being vain, it's about putting things in perspective. In the scheme of things, one, two, three four pairs of earrings-it doesnt matter, I never gave earrings a second thought until the Prophet gave that talk. But now its an issue because it has little or nothing to do with my eternal soul. My husband is not vain either, that haircut had nothing to do with vanity, it was to do with being used like a pawn to make the mission president, the church, whatever, look how he wanted, which is wrong.

The obedience argument doesn't work-We're being obedient to all ten commandments, the Word of wisdom etc. All these asides are the leaders of the church using 'obedience' to get us to do what they want

By the way, I have only one pair of earrings, i used to have more but they got infected and I had to take them out and couldnt get them back in again. If they were fine, I would still be wearing them today. I wear a skirt or dress and nice shoes (flip-flops in the summer) to church because thats what I feel most comfortable in, not because thats what someone told me I have to wear. If the Bishop suddenly decided we all had to wear jeans and t-shirts to church I wouldnt do that either because I wouldnt feel comfortable.

I am exercising the agency the Lord gave me when I came down to earth

[sixpacktr]

Aphrodite,

Yes, you are exercising the agency you were given. Your God-given right, which no one, not even church leaders, can or would take away from you.

It seems to me that those in the church with a problem with this really have a problem with Church Leadership. They seem to think that these men go home every night figuring out ways to take their agency from them to go on a "power trip."

I think it is sad that you go thru life that way, that if the Lord told you you'd do it, but when leaders do it it is the "whims" of old men.

Something about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man comes to mind, that if they wouldn't listen to the prophets of today, why would they listen if Moses came as a spirit to warn them???

[Guest Username-Removed]

While the thread has been interesting for me the fact is, and I quote from another thread, "local leaders simply need our support. Yes, occasionally they make really dumb decisions, like any human, but we still support them as church leaders. The decisions they make, which are sometimes bad and nearly always right on, are thankfully and rarely huge decisions, they are there to learn as are we. They have a lot of support from stake presidents, and others. "

That being said, occasionally they help us in deciding what to do when those big decisions come around. Its up to us to use their guidance. But ultimately, those large decisions, which have nothing to do with shirts, have everything to do with life's big decisions ... and can include the following..

1) Mission

2) College

3) Marriage

4) Children

6) Divorce

I've had leadership from bishops to members of the quorum of the seventy (when I was on my mission) help me with issues and big decisions throughout my life. My advice to anyone, remember the decisions are yours to make, but get as much input as possible then take it to the lord.

Sometimes what the Lord tells you may not always be what the leadership tells you. A good leader recognizes that. I've never had a leader tell me exactly how to pay tithing, but I've asked him about it, which helped me make decisions. When I contemplated divorce, my bishop, who I was very close to, said to me, "you cannot go on like this". It was an incredibly inspiring moment. When I was on my mission, I needed surgury to correct a problem with my knee. I talked a lot with my Mission President, which led to further discussions with a member of the seventy. In that case, the member of the seventy thought I did need to go back to the states for surgery, but my mission president didnt, but ultimately respected that it was my decision. I prayed about it, and I agreed with the Seventy. I got my surgery and finished my mission stateside.

I think when you are younger, you think that people are infallible. The fact is they are not. We allow some minor mistakes in our local leadership, because we know they must grow, as we must. The fact is, most of the decisions they make that affect us are rarely "big" decisions. But when the "big" ones comes, we must use every resource at our disposal so that we can make our best decision.

Shirts are shirts.... pretty minor - isn't it a good thing that's all we have a problem with? Well, besides flip flops too?

[CrimsonKairos]

When Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, he didn't do away with God's eye for detail.

The Jews had to wear phylacteries, certain clothes, they had alot of "thou shalt" wear this or that. Why? God was trying to teach them. I can easily see a young Jew saying, "Screw that, I ain't wearing no leather box on my forehead, that's just Moses's way of getting off!"

But that's not what it was about, and our leaders today aren't about getting off by "forcing" us to do as they please. I can just imagine Pres. Hinckley sitting up at night, tapping his fingertips together as he reviews his new policy for one pair of earrings and saying, "Dance, my little chess pieces, dance!"

Gimme a break.

How we look does matter to God. Why? Pardon this LDS-only point, Shan, but for the rest of you who are LDS...we are commissioned with taking the restored gospel to the whole world. There's a reason missionaries wear suits and ties...to set them apart...so when people see two guys walking or biking down the road in Sunday clothes they'll say, "Hey, those are LDS missionaries."

Likewise, in a larger sense, by having a Church membership who does their best to live clean, dress clean and simply, and so forth, we reflect positive light back on the Church which we are blessed to belong to.

If a mission pres. says the elders in his mission should part their hair a certain way, perhaps its part of the revelations the Lord is giving him as how to best increase conversions in that mission...maybe appearances do matter in that region.

If the prophet says we are not to wear such and such, or not have this many of that thing in our ear, perhaps its part of the revelatinos the Lord is giving him as how to best increase the Church's acceptance at home and abroad. Many countries let our missionaries in based on our Church's reputation for being law-abiding, decent, kind, clean, etc...

Let's just dispense with this so the real issue isn't muddied up anymore. NO ONE IS SAYING YOU ARE NOT A GOOD PERSON IF YOU DON'T WEAR A DRESS/SUIT AND TIE TO CHURCH.

What many of us ARE saying is that the Lord deserves better than jeans and a t-shirt, if we have better clothes than that. If we don't, then that's fine too. The core issue is not what you wear, but why we wear what we wear.

Part of any culture is wearing special clothes to special places to show respect and deference to others. Is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords not more worthy of respect and deference than a courtroom judge, or a prom date, or a business executive?

The issue is respect, not wardrobe.

[a-train]

I would imagine a likely reason for a sudden new rule about a hair part to be similar to a no-guitar rule. My mission had no rules against guitars and many missionaries had them. However, a group of missionaries were noted to start focusing too much on their practice with the guitars. They ended up wasting precious work-time on practice. Guitars were outlawed to eliminate the problem. I, as a result, put my guitar in storage at the mission home for the last several months of my mission. Am I mad? Was the Mission President going too far? No. He made a wise decision and I used my agency to follow his counsel.

Now imagine a particular haircut issue has come about. A group of Elders have some ridiculous haircut that is definitely NOT something representatives of the LORD should have (use your imagination). One that all of us could agree needs fixing. After prayerfully considering the issue, the Mission President creates a rule mandating a part in the hair which would now do away with the problem. To be fair, missionaries without the problem still have to follow the same rule also. Months later when the Elders who had the issue have gone home and the old Mission President has gone home, the new President does away with the rule. End of a very boring story.

-a-train

[Guest Username-Removed]

Months later when the Elders who had the issue have gone home and the old Mission President has gone home, the new President does away with the rule. End of a very boring story.

-a-train

I had four mission presidents in 18 months! Dude .... I was extremely lucky to see how each one was sucessfull, and not so successful. I learned a lot of each of them.

I didnt have any wierd rules on my mission that I can think of. In Australia we could listen to classical music, wear short sleaved shirts without a suit coat, and wear sunglasses. I had the most expensive pair of Bolle sunglasses that any missionary had!

My president in Australia and I bumped heads more than once, but I can tell you when two elders where excommucated, he turned to me with the choice of any jr companion I wanted to fix the problems of that area. We did. I didnt agree with everything he did. But I still respect him. When I left for the states to get surgery on my knee, he was extremely upset. After I left, he did some things he shouldnt have. When I went to one of the missionary reunions, he came up to me and said he was sorry and asked me if I could forgive him. I didnt even have to think about it ... I said of course.

The thing is, there are benefits of doing everything the same. Is it my way? No, its not what I would do to bring unity, but, Im not sitting in his chair. And the fact is, it is indeed pretty darn hard for our bishops to get out of hand these days. I think very highly of my bishop and my stake president. And, while they have not asked me to shave my beard, and get rid of my tatoo, if they did, it would probably be because those things were getting in my way. Right now, I dont believe thats a problem - lets hope it never becomes such.

I think one of the biggest problems that we latter day saint have is accepting those that are different than us. I do thing that we all could use a little help in that area. I can tell you that spending time down at the Bishops Storehouse and Deseret Industries (as asked by my bishop) has taught me a great deal. Its taught me how much I have, and how to be thankful for what I have. Its humbled me, and allowed me to grow more quickly than I would have on my own. I guess I've had some time to make up....

[LukeAir2006]

:)