Who Is Jesus Christ?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by srm@Mar 30 2004, 06:34 PM

Hebrews says that it is Melchisedec who that is without beginning of days and end of life. Even if it is comparing Jesus to Melchisedec (which I'm not conceding) do you believe that both Melchisedec AND Jesus are 'without beginning of days and end of life'? how can that be re: Melchisedec? was he god too?

BTW, you didn't answer my Mormon accepting Jesus question. Will you please?

The equation between these two great personages becomes clearer as we read on in Hebrews 7. Verse 3 describes Melchizedek as being “without father, without mother, without descent(or descendents), having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, (and one who) remains a priest continually.” His priesthood never ceased! The only priest who could possibly have fit these qualifications was the preexistent Word, the great Being who was on hand before the very creation itself (John 1:1).

The description “without father, without mother” means far more than just the supposition that Melchizedek’s family connections were simply omitted from the Genesis account. He had no physical human parents! In context, the phrase “having neither beginning of days nor end of life” makes that point crystal clear.

Finally, the phrase “made like the Son of God” (“bearing the likeness of the Son of God,” REB) is further strong evidence of Melchizedek’s identity. He was “like” the Son of God because He was not yet, in actuality, the Son of God—that is, until He was later begotten by God the Father through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Melchizedek couldn’t have been the Father because he was the “priest of the Most High God.” He could have been only the eternal, preexistent Word who later became Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

This is the belief of most Evangelical Christians in regards to this verses and in my opinion makes the most sense.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by broadway@Mar 30 2004, 06:41 PM

Hebrews 7:

2   To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3   Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I believe what these verses actually say. Do you?

Stephen,

Would you, for the sake of my ignorance, explain what you believe these verses to say? It seems that I have missed a part of this discussion and have no idea in what context this post is.

broadway

Hebrews 7:

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

In these verses Jesus Christ is being compared to Melchizedek.

The point of these verses is that Jesus Christ a.k.a. the Son of God......is without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.

Jesus Christ was not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother......because he is without father, without mother, without descent and has neither beginning of days nor end of life.

Jesus Christ has always existed and there was never any point in the past where he was literally born of heavenly parents.

The above is the point that I was trying to make with these Bible verses.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by srm+Mar 27 2004, 06:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 27 2004, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Stephen@Mar 27 2004, 05:24 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 26 2004, 03:44 PM

Then Stephen, since Mormons are reborn then what on earth is your beef?

You have to know who Jesus Christ is to be re-born. Salvation cannot come from a counterfeit Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....Another Jesus Christ who came into existence after Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had intercourse.

The Jesus Christ of the Bible is without beginning of days or end of life.

There is no hope of salvation in a Jesus Christ that does not exist.

The beliefs of Mormonism contradicts what the Bible teaches about God and as such I cannot accept them. The Bible is the bench mark and standard of truth. If you disagree its no big deal to me.

So, Stephen, when I sincerely accept Christ...'your Jesus' doesn't recognize it and condemns me to Hell because I'm a Mormon?

If you confess your sins and believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible who is without father, without mother, and is without beginning of days or end of life(in other words always existed as a Spirit long before he inhabited a physical body) as you put all your hope, trust and faith in the genuine Jesus Christ then you will be Born Again.

[broadway]

Hebrews 7:

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

In these verses Jesus Christ is being compared to Melchizedek.

The point of these verses is that Jesus Christ a.k.a. the Son of God......is without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.

Jesus Christ was not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother......because he is without father, without mother, without descent and has neither beginning of days nor end of life.

Jesus Christ has always existed and there was never any point in the past where he was literally born of heavenly parents.

The above is the point that I was trying to make with these Bible verses.

Ok, then we have either run into a scriptural contradiction or a place in the scripture that one has to understand that God's mind is very complex and cannot be fully placed into the language of man.

Jesus has a mother, for certain, no matter who you ask. Mary is said, in scripture, to be Jesus's mother. God is said, in scripture, to be Jesus's father.

Now, is one prophet just kidding, or is this another example of God having to say things a certain way for the understanding of some men, and say it a different way for the understanding of other men?

About the beginning of Jesus, we ALL existed before we were spirits. You, as a former member of our church, ought to be familiar with this doctrine of intelligences.

May I ask, how long ago did you decide that you wanted to look for a different church? How long were you an ACTIVE member of the LDS church?

broadway

[Tr2]

PEACE,

A while ago you wrote,

Is this post offensive to anyone beside me? Come on TR2.....

The post that you made reference to, please understand, I was not talking about you. Sorry for not addressing that sooner.

Wrong wrong and wrong

Again you are very vague and do not tell me how I am wrong. Do you have the capability to have a discussion without doing this? I addressed 3 of your points and you changed the subject because you didn't like the incriminating things against your argument.

This thread and my charge of dishonesty is barely even about you

You have accused me numer ous times about lying and being dishonest. You need to keep better track of the BS that you are shovelling in my direction. BTW, in regards to dishonesty, how would posting under a different user name and come up with a story just to try and anger me? And what was the reason you were banned from this board a while back? don't try and condemn people for things that you make a habit of practicing.

On the first page you made the false charge "here are a few of people on this board who do not want to know God;" we both know toward whom that was intended and we both know that it is untrue but beyond that little bit, I am not even talking about you.

Yes, that was regarding you. I have never seen anything to convince me that you want anything to do with the purposes of God. You are about being right and making sure everyone else is wrong when they disagree with you. Show me otherwise.

Yeah, thanks for sharing but what did you think about the lady hopping up and down promising you a 1000 times increase in wealth and favor from God if you will send her 68 bucks?

Again, you change the subject instead of answering my question.

In point of fact of fact I did not call you a rapist Trident

Yes, you did. You knew very well that there was nothing I could do about it because you had the internet as your protection. You do things like this and then wonder why people can't stand you? And you continue to use the word "molestor" knowing that I can't do anything about it. Well I suppose cowards like you need a place to act like a big shot because we both know you aren't stupid enough to ever say this to another man's face. There internet is full of people like you.

Do you understand the definition of the word "allow?" [definition: concede the truth or validity of something; "I allow for this possibility";]

You can get dictionary definitions all you want, but that is not how you used that word. You used it as though somebody needs your permission to say something. You aren't as important as you think you are.

[Faerie]

oh man..don't encourage him!! lol

[srm]

If you confess your sins and believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible who is without father, without mother, and is without beginning of days or end of life(in other words always existed as a Spirit long before he inhabited a physical body) as you put all your hope, trust and faith in the genuine Jesus Christ then you will be Born Again.

So, I can't just accept Jesus? I have to know a lot about him? What if I am pricked in my heart at a church meeting and I accept Jesus then get hit by a car and die before I can learn all the extra stuff about him...am I doomed to hell?

[Faerie]

No...Los Angelos...it's much worse *insert rim shot*

[Tr2]

So, I can't just accept Jesus? I have to know a lot about him?

Well one would likely have some kind of knowledge of Jesus before giving their lives to him. In my own story of how I got saved, I knew little about Jesus. I knew the basics but not much else. I think that if somebody gets to the point where they are willing to give their life to Jesus, they likely have enough understanding about Him to do so. But this is where it gets tough. Christians, Mormons, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, etc all have very different definitions of who Jesus is. Which Jesus have you just given your life to? This is a tough one.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 30 2004, 06:53 PM

If you confess your sins and believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible who is without father, without mother, and is without beginning of days or end of life(in other words always existed as a Spirit long before he inhabited a physical body) as you put all your hope, trust and faith in the genuine Jesus Christ then you will be Born Again.

Except that the Bible doesn't say that. Guess if you want Stephen to save you, then that's the ticket.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 30 2004, 07:33 PM

Wrong wrong and wrong

Again you are very vague and do not tell me how I am wrong. Do you have the capability to have a discussion without doing this? I addressed 3 of your points and you changed the subject because you didn't like the incriminating things against your argument.

This thread and my charge of dishonesty is barely even about you

You have accused me numer ous times about lying and being dishonest.

Okay, you just said that I am vague and did not tell you how you were wrong. You next complained about me saying you are dishonest. Let me correct you right here.

When you quote my "Wrong, wrong, wrong" and said I did not explain how you were wrong, that is dishonest because you purposely deleted the explanation I gave for each of the "wrongs"

This was my statement:

"Wrong wrong and wrong.

Wrong, you are not speechless, you go on and on and on.[this was a reference to you when you said you were speechless, then you promptly made a speech.]

Wrong, This thread and my charge of dishonesty is barely even about you. It is primarily about Stephen. On the first page you made the false charge "here are a few of people on this board who do not want to know God;" we both know toward whom that was intended and we both know that it is untrue but beyond that little bit, I am not even talking about you. [This was a reference to you complaining about my calling you dishonest when my thrust on this thread was primarily aimed toward Stephen.]

Wrong, you haven't addressed any points on this thread with factual data. Until this post above, you have made 3 posts on this thread and none of the three have factual data - go back and check. I did." [This was because you claimed that you gave factual data. I checked and there was no factual data and so your claim was false]

So, there you go Trident, you have been dishonest, again. All of it is in print so anyone can see. What do you hope to gain by denying it? Are you going to claim that you actually did provide factual data or that you didn't just accuse me of not explaining?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 30 2004, 07:33 PM

Yeah, thanks for sharing but what did you think about the lady hopping up and down promising you a 1000 times increase in wealth and favor from God if you will send her 68 bucks?

Again, you change the subject instead of answering my question.

Yeah, your right. Sorry. Here's your answer. No, I'm not, thank you for asking. But, what did you think of the lady hopping up and down?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 30 2004, 07:33 PM

Yes, you did. You knew very well that there was nothing I could do about it because you had the internet as your protection. You do things like this and then wonder why people can't stand you? And you continue to use the word "molestor" knowing that I can't do anything about it. Well I suppose cowards like you need a place to act like a big shot because we both know you aren't stupid enough to ever say this to another man's face. There internet is full of people like you.

Well no, but go ahead and think what you want. And yes, Trident, there is something that you can do. You can lose your composure and start calling me a coward, safely, from behind your computer screen, behind the border, far away in Toronto. You could do that Trident. I'm impressed by it, I imagine that others are as well.

Do you understand the definition of the word "allow?" [definition: concede the truth or validity of something; "I allow for this possibility";]

You can get dictionary definitions all you want, but that is not how you used that word.

Luv, you are wrong. Let me prove it to you. Please. Sign the papers and then call the exchange. Let it ring twice then hang up. Wait by the phone booth for the package.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by broadway@Mar 30 2004, 07:14 PM

Hebrews 7:

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

In these verses Jesus Christ is being compared to Melchizedek.

The point of these verses is that Jesus Christ a.k.a. the Son of God......is without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.

Jesus Christ was not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother......because he is without father, without mother, without descent and has neither beginning of days nor end of life and no doubt loved him.

Jesus Christ has always existed and there was never any point in the past where he was literally born of heavenly parents.

The above is the point that I was trying to make with these Bible verses.

Ok, then we have either run into a scriptural contradiction or a place in the scripture that one has to understand that God's mind is very complex and cannot be fully placed into the language of man.

Jesus has a mother, for certain, no matter who you ask. Mary is said, in scripture, to be Jesus's mother. God is said, in scripture, to be Jesus's father.

Now, is one prophet just kidding, or is this another example of God having to say things a certain way for the understanding of some men, and say it a different way for the understanding of other men?

About the beginning of Jesus, we ALL existed before we were spirits. You, as a former member of our church, ought to be familiar with this doctrine of intelligences.

May I ask, how long ago did you decide that you wanted to look for a different church? How long were you an ACTIVE member of the LDS church?

broadway

There is no contradiction in scripture.

Jesus Christ has no literal mother and no literal father. His genetical make-up does not contain DNA from Mary and Joseph. Mary was the body used to carry Jesus Christ in the form of a baby, but Mary was a virgin and Jesus Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Mary was only a mother to Jesus Christ in the sense that she looked after him and took care of him from infancy to adulthood.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. He has always existed and was not brought into the world as a result of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman.

The book of Hebrews is speaking in reference to origin and not in reference to parental attributes. Jesus Christ had no origin for he has always existed. Nobody doubts the parental attributes of Mary.

There is no contradiction. Just a misunderstanding on your part.

[Faerie]

no one laughed at my joke *cry*

and I didn't know you had to have DNA similarities to be a Mother...Mary WAS Jesus' mother and IS Jesus' mother...

ala:

Matt. 1: 18

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary  was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matt. 2: 11

11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matt. 13: 55

55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary ? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

John 19: 25

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

Acts 1: 14

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

If she was merely to be his caretaker on this earth, and not a MOTHER..surely the Lord would have specified the vast difference. I can adopt a child, and not be biologically related, and still be his mother.

And let's see how many times the phrase "Son of God" appears in the scriptures (i'm using the Bible only for you Stephen)

Wow... FOURTY SEVEN TIMES For not having a Father either, the Lord sure liked to call Jesus His Son...

but I digress...

[Stephen]

I was a active member of the LDS Church for 27 years and it was just barely a couple years ago that I came to know Jesus Christ for the first time in my life. It was after careful study of the Bible and prayerful meditation that I recognized the Jesus Christ of the Bible for the first time in my life.........I could see that Jesus Christ was without beginning of days or end of life just as the Bible teaches and was not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. That was a real eye opener for me. Jesus Christ was not just one of an infinite number of Gods.... as I had been taught by Mormon Church leaders that Jesus Christ has a Father who became God and he has a Father that became God going back countless generations. "Jesus Christ is eternal and is without beginning of days or end of life." When I acknowledged the truthfulness of these words of God and recognized that I needed Jesus Christ in my life for the first time, that is when I confessed my sins to Jesus Christ and asked him to be the Savior of my life as before I had simply taken it for granted that he already was. I went for almost a whole year in the Mormon Church trying to make the truths of the Bible fit with Mormon doctrines or beliefs that contradict the Bible. I finally started looking for a Church that actually believes what the Bible teaches and is not ashamed of it........and teaches people how they can be Born Again and not suffer both physical and spiritual death. I now attend a non-denominational Christian Church that focuses on the truthgs of God in the Bible. In the Mormon Church there was so much focus on what Joseph Smith said and taught, what Brigham Young said and taught, what Wilford Woodruff said and taught, ect. Even the testimony meeting were bland and repetitive lacking the passion of Christ evident in those who are Born Again. You would here the same words repeated almost verbatim: "I know the Church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, I know that Gordon B. Hinckley is the Prophet on the earth today, I know that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ translated by Joseph Smith, ect." Nobody ever mentioned what God had done fro them in their lives and nobody ever acknowledged in their testimonies that they had been Born Again by the grace of Jesus Christ. In testimony meetings Jesus Christ was barely referred to and the lack of closeness to Jesus Christ was self evident. It was more of a affirmation meeting then anything. I longed to fellowship with those with a deep love and passion for Jesus Christ and I have finally found that in my life.

[Faerie]

I find it very sad that you have such a dismal perspective of what our church is like. I have heard testimonies like that before sure...from SMALL CHILDREN...Come to MY ward, you'll hear some wonderful testimonies of God the Father and Christ the Son and personal relationships with both parties mentioned above...

[Guest Starsky]

no one laughed at my joke *cry*

I'm sorry....I didn't get it... I know...I am not the sharpest stone in the quorrie. (see I don't even know how to spell the quorey thing....LOL

[Faerie]

your avatar scares me *f33r*

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Faerie@Mar 31 2004, 03:06 PM

no one laughed at my joke *cry*

and I didn't know you had to have DNA similarities to be a Mother...Mary WAS Jesus' mother and IS Jesus' mother...

ala:

Matt. 1: 18

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary  was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matt. 2: 11

11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matt. 13: 55

55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary ? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

John 19: 25

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

Acts 1: 14

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

If she was merely to be his caretaker on this earth, and not a MOTHER..surely the Lord would have specified the vast difference. I can adopt a child, and not be biologically related, and still be his mother.

And let's see how many times the phrase "Son of God" appears in the scriptures (i'm using the Bible only for you Stephen)

Wow... FOURTY SEVEN TIMES For not having a Father either, the Lord sure liked to call Jesus His Son...

but I digress...

Apparently you don't believe what your own Book of Mormon plainly teaches.

"And now Abinidi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected himself to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son"(Mosiah 15:1-3).

Ironically Christians believe these things taught in the Book of Mormon, but some members of the Mormon Church on this message board don't believe them.

Jesus Christ has no literal parents. Jesus Christ himself is called both the Father and the Son in the Bible....not just the Book of Mormon. Jesus Christ has always existed and there was never a time that he has not existed.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Faerie@Mar 31 2004, 03:19 PM

your avatar scares me *f33r*

that is the idea...LOL all these young men...comin on to me...LOL ROLF! HAHAHAHAHA...just kidding...

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Faerie@Mar 31 2004, 04:16 PM

I have heard testimonies like that before sure...from SMALL CHILDREN...Come to MY ward, you'll hear some wonderful testimonies of God the Father and Christ the Son and personal relationships with both parties mentioned above...

Same here.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 31 2004, 03:20 PM

Jesus Christ has no literal parents.

Interesting, so when the Bible says Son of God we should interpret that as Not the Son of God. Good thinking Stephen - disbelieving the Bible. Let us know how that works out for you.

Fact is, not supposition, fact, that people have 46 chromosones. 23 from the father and 23 from the mother. Provided Christ was a person, he had all 46, just like the rest of us. That 20 and 3 from his father and 20 and 3 from his mother. Check the math, add it up.

[Faerie]

He had magic chromosomes

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 31 2004, 03:09 PM

In the Mormon Church there was so much focus on what Joseph Smith said and taught, what Brigham Young said and taught, what Wilford Woodruff said and taught, ect. Even the testimony meeting were bland and repetitive lacking the passion of Christ evident in those who are Born Again. You would here the same words repeated almost verbatim: "I know the Church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, I know that Gordon B. Hinckley is the Prophet on the earth today, I know that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ translated by Joseph Smith, ect." Nobody ever mentioned what God had done fro them in their lives and nobody ever acknowledged in their testimonies that they had been Born Again by the grace of Jesus Christ. In testimony meetings Jesus Christ was barely referred to and the lack of closeness to Jesus Christ was self evident. It was more of a affirmation meeting then anything. I longed to fellowship with those with a deep love and passion for Jesus Christ and I have finally found that in my life.

I will agree with Faerie.....sounds like a testimony meeting with small children, or perhaps adult members who are not comfortable with their faith. And I will agree that more people need to have your level of committment, and share their love of Christ with others....

It was more of a affirmation meeting then anything. I longed to fellowship with those with a deep love and passion for Jesus Christ and I have finally found that in my life.

Stephen, I have said it before, and I will say it again....You belonged to a messed up ward, and it is a shame that life had to happen to you the way it did. You did what you needed to do to control your level of spirituality, your closeness and devotion to Jesus Christ, and no one should blame you for that, because that was extremely important for you. You needed something more in your life, and you found it.

It's just a shame that you lost some of the truths that you found along the way.

(anyone that knows me, knew that I had to say something to be a thorn in your side....)

OK, that's all I am going to say....