snake versus serpent question

[Uhura]

I was thinking the other day about how the snake used to represent evil but now is used as a medical symbol for and so represents healing.

Someone ones told me that the word serpent did not always mean snake and could have been dragon or something in the Bible.

I would love other input on this, links to articles, etc if anyone has any.

[bytebear]

Numbers 21:9

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The serpent was used to both represent Satan (in the Garden) and Jesus Christ. I think this shows that although the serpents do evil (like tempt Eve or poison men), the savior is the same creature. Jesus Christ is still of the family of man, and so you cannot call all men evil just as you cannot see a serpent as always evil.

[Quin]

Technically... The Caduceus are WINGED serpants/snakes.

They descend from Hermes' staff (given to him by Apollo, who was a God of Healing, amongst other duties, and the staff was supposed to have incrediably healing powers). Hermes was often invoked in medicine -staff of healing or no- as he was the messenger of the Gods, and doctors/family would pray for Hermes to take their prayers to other gods. Also, because Hermes was the God of Travellers... Doctors in those days rarely kept office hours. Instead they travelled with armies and into or through the worst of neighborhoods.

Asclepius came later, and was the official God of Medicine (originally a hero, and like Dionysius, raised to Godhood, just not as high). The Rod of Asclepius is similar to the Caduceus... But has only one snake (Wing-free). The Rod of Asclepius is used in many other countries, but almost never in North America.

Also, to note, In Ancient Greece snakes (winged or otherwise) weren't regarded the same way that Christians later regarded snakes.

Q

[Lakumi]

The Book of Mormon mentions a cockatrice, which is, in simple terms a chicken dragon in Greek Mythology, and I was told it was to mean a poisonous snake...

Odd choice of word for a poisonous snake, I was actually hoping for it to be a literal cockatrice, I mean the bible mentions Unicorns

[person122]

The Book of Mormon mentions a cockatrice, which is, in simple terms a chicken dragon in Greek Mythology, and I was told it was to mean a poisonous snake...

Odd choice of word for a poisonous snake, I was actually hoping for it to be a literal cockatrice, I mean the bible mentions Unicorns

have you heard how some people think dinosaurs were alive while people were living? They say they have fossils to prove it. There was a pot that had a picture of a triceratops on it(or something close to it). Wow, am I off topic.

[Lakumi]

have you heard how some people think dinosaurs were alive while people were living? They say they have fossils to prove it. There was a pot that had a picture of a triceratops on it(or something close to it). Wow, am I off topic.

yeah creationism, an idea I consider to be well to be kind, "insane"

I am not against the idea of something we don't understand starting life, but I refuse to believe things like the earth being 6000, us living with dinosaurs, a global flood actually happening, that evolution isn't real, all that sort of stuff.

creationism doesn't have anything going for it, no proof, just belief

science has proof, and while it may not be perfect, its more then what creationism has.

I believe the Bible and the Book of Mormon are stories that are meant to teach to us things, things that can live on in the ages, like loving your neighbour, don't let money become your God, don't be greedy, that sort of stuff.

I don't believe them to be historical and I don't believe them to be scientific.

[Uhura]

What do you think of the TV shows that try to prove the existance of mermaids (now and in the past) and bigfoot, and similar things? And more important, how do you reply to people who believe them?

[Lakumi]

What do you think of the TV shows that try to prove the existance of mermaids (now and in the past) and bigfoot, and similar things? And more important, how do you reply to people who believe them?

I reply to those who believe in these creatures with a "show me some proof" this is science here, you can't just say a unicorn exists and not show me some sort of proof.

Science doesn't run on faith.

[Uhura]

Some would consider the TV shows as proof. The shows list all the evidence that they try to use it to prove the existance of mermaids, etc.

I even know of one person who says that there used to be a blue race of people. How do I answer that one?

[Lakumi]

Some would consider the TV shows as proof. The shows list all the evidence that they try to use it to prove the existance of mermaids, etc.

I even know of one person who says that there used to be a blue race of people. How do I answer that one?

Well Krishna is blue

Some say aliens, but this is getting all out of hand, soon this will turn into a conversation about why Krishna is blue, and why Shiva had many arms

[Uhura]

Can't answer the why but I like how it was pointed out that Antient Greece had a different perspective. So was there one event or time that the snake/serpent changed to represent good the way it does on the medical symbol?

[Quin]

British "public" schools (aka private boarding schools according to US ideas, but public in the sense that people paid to send their kids there, instead of educating them in private at home) relied very heavily on "classical education".

Meaning students were expected to learn Ancient Greek & Latin, and studied their philosophers, scientists, et cetera quite heavily.

These schools were particularly predominant during the British Empire (as families sent their children home to England -from the colonies they governed- for their education.

Slightly off topic... That's where the "plummy" accent came from. Kids returned to Englamd from all,over the world with a hodgepodge of accents and schools TAUGHT a uniform accent they required their students to adhere to. To a degree, even in modern times, there are till school-specific-accents in the English upperclass. I can do a Dulwich/old Vic accent, and a few others, for example. Moving back on target...

In the 18th & 19th centuries... The study of science, and scientific endeavors, exploded onto the scene in the western world. The Royal Academy, Royal Society, The Royal Academy of Physicians, hundreds and hundreds of clubs & private ventures (ranging from chemistry to biology -Darwin, anyone?-, medicine, astromy, archeology/Egyptology, philogy, mechanical engineering.... The last pours on.

By and large, most of the participants of that scientific explosion were those self same students of British Public School. With their heavy foundations of classical Greece & roman history & languages.

As such, one finds Classical symbols used in modern times (sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly, but as thought correct in the era).

Hence the healing staff of Hermes/Mercury used in medical matters.

ALSO hence many modern people thinking at was a mistake.

As we've all but eradicated a classical education out of American schools.

So Mercury/Hermes' staff is thought by many to be a misuse of the Rod of Aesclepius.

When, as those who study classics know, it had healing powers given to him by Apollo, and his job as messenger to the gods & protector of travelers made it a VERY apt medical,symbol.

So... One point where it was turned good?

Nope!

To oversimplify a smidge:

Good (ancient Greece/Rome for a millena or two)

Bad (Holy Roman Empire, for another millena)

Good (Age of Reason to present, lets hope for at least a millennia, shall we?)

Q

[Guest]

Can't answer the why but I like how it was pointed out that Antient Greece had a different perspective. So was there one event or time that the snake/serpent changed to represent good the way it does on the medical symbol?

You don't have to look much further than Exodus. One of the "miracles" that God commanded Moses and Aaron to do was to produce a giant serpent out of Aaron's staff as proof to the Pharoah that they are of God. The Pharoah had his sorcerers produce a serpent as well but Aaron's serpent devoured it.

In Numbers, God punished the sinful by sending serpents to bite them and send them to their deaths. When the people repented, God told Moses to make a serpent (Moses made it out of brass) that the people can look upon and they will not die. The brass serpent healed the people.

In Matthew, Jesus instructed his disciples to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

And here's Curly, our awesome pet serpent. :)

[Uhura]

I'm not a fan of snakes but you seem to be enjoying it. I don't mind them, just don't like touching them. Actually because they are on the medical symbol I respect them.

[Blackmarch]

I was thinking the other day about how the snake used to represent evil but now is used as a medical symbol for and so represents healing.

Someone ones told me that the word serpent did not always mean snake and could have been dragon or something in the Bible.

I would love other input on this, links to articles, etc if anyone has any.

HI all, sorry I've been gone but anyways, I'd like to point out that the snake is more likely to represent cunning, intelligence, or power rather than good or evil.

there might be subvariations on snake or serpent in which there might be more evil/good connotations with the original language however I wouldn't know much about anything along those lines. but in the translated bible there are at least 3 different snake/serpent images-

1st is of course the popular one, and what gives the snake the evil connotation within Christian circles, that being the deception of Adam and Eve, by the devil who is represented as a snake or serpent.

Personally i'm more inclined to think that the serpent represents cunning or power due to the following snake symbols in the bible (and by these means the devil is intelligent, cunning, and does have some power)-

2nd. we have moses where his staff transforms into a snake and consumes the other staffs of the pharaohs wizards that have also become snakes. While I don't think this representation is of good/evil due to that the a ) the Lord's servant used a snake, and that b )said snake overpowered all the other snakes from false servants (or servants of false gods). however some may use the explanation that this was the Lords showing that evil will befall the Egyptians. ( I don't go with that explanations as I do not consider God's actions to be evil ).

3rd is when Moses and the house of Israel is in the wilderness and many have been bitten by poisonous snakes and that to be saved all they had to do is look upon a raised staff that had a snake upon it (this is most likely the image that inspired the medical symbol). again here it would be strange to have the children of Israel be healed by gazing upon (or going after) wickedness/ devil. However the raised staff and salvation themes point towards rather Christ, so here we have a snake symbolizing Christ. and hence why I think biblical snake symbology generally means more along the lines of power or cunning rather than wickedness or righteousness.

its quite possible that the snake symbol was used to teach the ancient Israelites as they may have picked its concept up from other cultures (perhaps the Egyptians).

as for dragons, in my bible notes often times I see a translation note that the word could also be translated as jackal.

Its also interesting to note how widespread the snake symbol is throughout different world cultures.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Blackmarch