Adam and Eve and the juicy fruit...

[whirlieking]

I'm preparing a primary lesson on this for tomorrow and it's set my mind a-spinning. Why would the Lord require a commandment to be broken ( eat the fruit) in order to keep another one (multiply and replenish)? Why is this so counter-intuitive? What was the purpose of Adam and Eve going through that? I hope it doesn't sound too blasphemous to say, but sometimes in my mind it comes off as a trick. Why didn't He just put Adam and Eve on the earth in the state that the rest of us were in when we got here and say- OK you have your agency to follow the rules or not. It's called free agency. Really, what was the point of that whole garden scene?

I didnt read the rest of the posts because at the moment Im busy but I did want to address this part of your question. Why doesn't God put Adam and Eve on the earth like he does with us?

The answer as I understand and see it involves the hebrew word for good. As I have been taught, this word, in a hebraic sense, indicates an absence of evil. This is extremely important. It goes against our society and its use of the word. In our society we go good, great, excellent, awesome, terrific, outstanding, amazing, etc. Good is such an insignificant compliment. However the hebraic approach is so much grander and teaches much about God.

God can only do good, pure, virtuous things. He cannot do evil. So when he created the world, he created it without evil in it, however his creations have agency. D&C 93 teaches us that disobedience takes away light and truth, or takes away goodness and righteousness from people. That is the position that Adam and Eve were in. Completely innocent and good, not perfect, but clean and pure. And they used their agency to disobey the commandment. They were no longer clean to be in their presence.

I hope this illustrates why God couldnt just put them on an earth he created with mortality already here. It was just something he doesnt do, He brings people and things to him, the only way to go away is to make a choice to go away.

[carlimac]

while this thread is primarily about reaching understanding regarding Adam and Eve and there choices. It is this first sentence that grabbed my attention first and foremost.

Primary teacher is one of the most sacred and rewarding callings in the church. The influence a teacher can have on young impressionable minds can last a lifetime.

While no doubt that lesson has now come and gone. If you were preparing a lesson for your class such questions as the ones you have asked are probably not necessary for their young minds.

I just had a quick chance to skim over the lesson and was quite gobsmacked at the simple profound doctrine taught in the lesson. I couldn't see the blood part but it would no doubt pale into insignificance compared to all the other valuable truths in the lesson.

In fact the lesson itself taught quite succinctly the truth about many of the speculative positions being thrown around this post

Funny as humans we often think the deeper we dig the more we will find but the Gospel can be quite the opposite. If someone at church is struggling with their testimony or understanding ill often encourage them to ask one of the primary teachers if they can sit in on their lesson on perhaps attend Gospel Principles.

Didn't mean to rave about this, my point was if your mind is spinning about doctrinal issues for you primary class then your probably not preparing the right thing. I would suggest praying for each child individually about what they need to know and in doing so theres a good chance you'll find your own answers as well. That is the miracle of teaching.

I appreciate this. I've only been in Primary a few weeks and I need to relearn how to simplify again.

[carlimac]

If a young adult child says to her parents, "It's time for me to find a place of my own and become an adult." The parents would not say, 'okay, once you find the place we will move in with you'. They would say something along the lines of; 'that's great that you want to learn responsibility, you should find a place on your own when you are ready but if you really want to learn responsibility then you are going to have to pay for the place on your own and take responsibility for supporting yourself. To do that we will have to have limited involvement. Of course, if you have any problems along the way we will help.'

It wouldn't make sense for the young adult who wants to learn responsibility to find a place on her own and yet still live with mom and dad.

There was a plan put into place that would allow for a probationary period of learning and proving our ability to have responsibility without having it be a permanent condition. Without going through the whole plan of salvation, the fall of Adam and Eve was a necessary step to allow for some responsibility and provide a way back, a Savior.

As great as living with mom and dad one's whole life may sound, it is a growth stunting choice. One has to break away from mom and dad even before she becomes a perfect mom (or dad). Just like a young adult moving out of the house, there is a fall in terms of home, food, finances, etc. from what was previously enjoyed. This is done so the young adult can get back to that point herself and provide the same opportunity for the next generation. A fall from glory requires a transgression. God is just.

This is great. I'll have to remember this analogy if I'm ever teaching this topic to teenagers or older.

[faith4]

I hope you don't mind if I put in my two cents :) I have a question that is somewhat similar to OP, on your church's site, I am reading about the Plan of Salvation as your church teaches, but it's not making much sense to me. Here's the link:

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-plan-of-salvation/the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

It says that Satan rebelled against the Fathers plan and was cast out of Heavenly Fathers presence, to always be a spirit and never receive a body. But then just a little farther down, it says that Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree, causing the fall, which was part of Heavenly Fathers plan, b/c otherwise, Adam and Eve could not have children without the fall. So, Satan did cooperate with the plan? Otherwise, if Adam and Eve couldn't have kids without being tempted, why didn't satan just not tempt them? That way, he could deny all the pre-existing spirits the opportunity to receive a body and progress, just like him. Right? If I was satan, and I was mad at the Father, why would I cooperate with the plan by tempting Eve so that she could have children and begin the plan of salvation?

Also, as a Catholic, we have completely different theology regarding Adam and Eve and the fall. We are taught God created us out of love, to share in his divine sonship and glory. But, God wants us to freely love him in return, hence the forbidden fruit. There had to be something, some rule given, for Adam and Eve to freely obey in order to choose God. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they chose themselves over God, and this selfish act in choosing self over God, is what brought sin and death into the world, and this sin ruptured the original state of holiness and grace Adam and Eve were created with. For Catholics, the fall was not a blessing or a good thing, satan tempted our first parents and they fell for it causing our rupture with God, our fall from grace. We believe that when God gave the command to be fruitful and multiply, our first parents were able to do this without falling from grace first, there were no contradictory commands. As the animals, fish and foliage were created to multiply, so were we, which is why he created us male and female. So death reigned in the world, until Jesus came as a man, to choose God over self, and defeated death through his resurrection.

Just as our first parents were tempted in a garden, and sin and death entered through the fruit of a forbidden tree, so Jesus was tempted in a garden (his agony, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass form me; yet, not as I will, but as you will" Matt 26:39) and death was conquered through his submission to death on a tree. He chose God over self b/c he loved and trusted in God that much, and it is through him that man is saved b/c Jesus atoned for the rupture between God and man that was created by Adam and Eve. He conquered death, he is the way, the truth and the life.

Sorry this is so long, lol! I know this is completely different than what your church teaches, but I hope it makes somewhat sense to you :) Good luck with teaching the children!

[Just_A_Guy]

So, Satan did cooperate with the plan? Otherwise, if Adam and Eve couldn't have kids without being tempted, why didn't satan just not tempt them?

Mormon scripture says that Satan's behavior in the garden was based on the fact that he "knew not the mind of God". Beyond that, we can't really be sure of what his thought process really was.

--One theory I've heard is, Satan didn't realize that Adam and Eve were currently incapable of bearing children.

--Another is that Satan understood what the fruit would do, and knew it was part of God's plan; but wanted to trigger the plan for his own reasons (without partaking of the fruit Adam and Eve and their children couldn't be exalted--but nobody could be truly and fully damned, either).

--Then again, maybe he thought he could win Adam and Eve's allegiance by offering them something that God the Father had--at least, for the time being--advised them to stay away from.

--Another idea is that Satan thought he could somehow possess for himself and his followers, the bodies of the children that Adam and Eve would produce and co-opt them for his own purposes.

--Another is that Satan intended, not only for Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit, but for them to immediately partake also of the fruit of the tree of life--thereby forcing them to live forever in their fallen state (the Book of Mormon contemplates the dire consequences that this contingency would have brought about--see Alma 40).

[Seminarysnoozer]

Mormon scripture says that Satan's behavior in the garden was based on the fact that he "knew not the mind of God". Beyond that, we can't really be sure of what his thought process really was.

--One theory I've heard is, Satan didn't realize that Adam and Eve were currently incapable of bearing children.

--Another is that Satan understood what the fruit would do, and knew it was part of God's plan; but wanted to trigger the plan for his own reasons (without partaking of the fruit Adam and Eve and their children couldn't be exalted--but nobody could be truly and fully damned, either).

--Then again, maybe he thought he could win Adam and Eve's allegiance by offering them something that God the Father had--at least, for the time being--advised them to stay away from.

--Another idea is that Satan thought he could somehow possess for himself and his followers, the bodies of the children that Adam and Eve would produce and co-opt them for his own purposes.

--Another is that Satan intended, not only for Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit, but for them to immediately partake also of the fruit of the tree of life--thereby forcing them to live forever in their fallen state (the Book of Mormon contemplates the dire consequences that this contingency would have brought about--see Alma 40).

Another theory I've heard is that Satan still maintained the mindset of his arguments from the War in Heaven, which is that he could provide salvation free without any effort on our part. Maybe he really thought that the 'tree of death' could really provide all knowledge by one bite, not realizing it was just a gait to the possibility of obtaining all knowledge. Not knowing the mind of God, he thought he might get credit for telling them about it and claim the glory for instructing man. (I suppose this is kind of like your last statement but I wonder if he really understood the 'tree of life' and 'tree of death' instruction from God)

[Traveler]

Another theory I've heard is that Satan still maintained the mindset of his arguments from the War in Heaven, which is that he could provide salvation free without any effort on our part. Maybe he really thought that the 'tree of death' could really provide all knowledge by one bite, not realizing it was just a gait to the possibility of obtaining all knowledge. Not knowing the mind of God, he thought he might get credit for telling them about it and claim the glory for instructing man. (I suppose this is kind of like your last statement but I wonder if he really understood the 'tree of life' and 'tree of death' instruction from God)

I hold to the notion that Satan did so for his own selfish reasons. If there was any service to G-d's plan it would not be relevant to him and not matter to him. I believe that the difference is that the mind of G-d is to provide a service and the mind of Satan is selfish. As to knowledge - I believe Satan knew what he was doing and understood the outcome. None of which mattered to him - he did what he wanted anyway.

The Traveler

[faith4]

Thank you to both of you who replied :) Your responses make a little more sense, and I have thought about this over night and this morning. I went back to read my link and study your teaching some more. Please keep in my mind that I am a Catholic, I am trying to understand a teaching that is quite different than what I've been taught. This is one area in which I had a lot of trouble with when my LDS friends were trying to expain the faith to me.

In the link, it makes it clear that God the Father taught us the plan of salvation and that Jesus Christ was chosen as the Savior. If a Savior was already chosen in our pre-earth life, then we all mustv'e known that there had to be a transgression of some sort. No transgression, no Savior, right? So satan knew all about what would happen just like all of us did, otherwise, what was he rebelling against?

"An important part of God’s plan was for you to come to earth to receive a physical body and to learn to make correct choices."

"Satan, one of God’s spirit children, rebelled against Heavenly Father and did not accept His plan."

"He [God] commanded them [Adam and Eve] not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and they chose to do so. This was part of God’s plan. " But the tree represented a choice already, in and of itself through Gods command to not eat of it, why did Adam and Eve have to choose wrongly in order to start having children? Why did the blessing of children have to come through an unrighteous act rather than the righteous act of obedience?

[The Fall] "The event by which mankind became mortal. It resulted in a spiritual and physical separation from God. Because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God’s commandments, they were separated from His presence (this separation is also called spiritual death) and became mortal (subject to physical death). " But did they truly disobey if this is what they were taught to do?

Now, this is what my brain can't quite comprehend. God commanded our first parents to not eat the fruit of this tree, they disobeyed through the temptation of satan, but this is exactly what God wanted us to do?

So for Jesus to save and atone, there had to first be a fall. We had to break a commandment (do not eat that fruit) to fulfill another commandment (be fruitful and multiply) and progress to exaltation. Satans temptations are bad and are to be ignored, but it's a good thing Adam and Eve did not ignore this one, b/c this was ultimately a good temptation even though it led to death and sin. If the first temptation was actually part of Gods plan, even though we were punished by the consequence of sin and death, then how do we know if other temptations are actually necessary?

Ultimately the fall was necessary and a blessing for all of us. Jesus could not come and be the Savior w/o the blessing of the fall. We could not be born and progress to exaltation w/o this blessing. Satan was the one to cause our fall by his temptation. The fall was necessary for us to progress and for Jesus to atone. Satan, whether knowingly or not, caused the fall, so the blessing came from him...which was part of Gods plan all along. Satan did a good thing.

I just can't reconcile this in my mind, to me this gives satan way too much credit, no blessing or necessary good could've possibly come from him whether he knew it or not.

I believe satan to be cunning and malicious, hateful towards God and us. He is full of anger and lies, and wants to hurt us in the worst way. By tempting Eve, and Adam, he was able to accomplish this by rupturing our original relationship w/God and separating us from Him by introducing sin and death.

[faith4]

I hold to the notion that Satan did so for his own selfish reasons. If there was any service to G-d's plan it would not be relevant to him and not matter to him. I believe that the difference is that the mind of G-d is to provide a service and the mind of Satan is selfish. As to knowledge - I believe Satan knew what he was doing and understood the outcome. None of which mattered to him - he did what he wanted anyway.

The Traveler

But whether selfish or not, satan did us a huge favor and participated in Gods plan after all and began the process of our progress to salvation, which is a blessing.

If Gods plan is to provide us a service, why tell Adam and Eve not to do something (but wanted us to do it for his plan anyway) but to do something else (have children, which technically couldn't be done yet)? Then punish us for doing what he wanted us to do? That seems backwards to me. Sin and death and separtion from God are pretty hefty punishments too for something God wanted us to do.

"Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes', and your 'No' mean 'No.' Anything more is from the evil one." Matt 5:37.

God loves us, the choice to obey or not was always there b/c the tree was there. God put that tree there, w/its delicious looking fruit to entice them, so that Adam and Eve did have a choice to obey God, and through their obedience, show their love in return for God. God told us not to eat this fruit, and we trust and love God, so we won't eat it. When they decided that the fruit did indeed look good enough to consume, they ignored Gods command and sinned, by pride (I know better than God, this fruit is pleasing to the eye therefore I deem it good for food).

[Just_A_Guy]

In the link, it makes it clear that God the Father taught us the plan of salvation and that Jesus Christ was chosen as the Savior. If a Savior was already chosen in our pre-earth life, then we all mustv'e known that there had to be a transgression of some sort. No transgression, no Savior, right? So satan knew all about what would happen just like all of us did, otherwise, what was he rebelling against?

Satan wanted to take the role that would be given to Jesus, thereby gaining God's power and glory for himself. But whereas Jesus attained His role through complete submission to the Father, Satan sought to attain it by subjugating the Father to his own will.

"He [God] commanded them [Adam and Eve] not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and they chose to do so. This was part of God’s plan. " But the tree represented a choice already, in and of itself through Gods command to not eat of it, why did Adam and Eve have to choose wrongly in order to start having children?

In Mormon thought, the tree didn't represent a choice against God. The tree and its fruit represented only a mechanism through which the partaker would come into an environment where procreation, death, weakness, a fallen nature, and some degree of additional wisdom were all a reality. That's the same choice that we think each of us made when we chose to come down to this earth and receive a physical body. There's nothing wrong with the choice per se.

We label Adam and Eve's action a "transgression" because God told them not to do it (yet?), not because there was anything wrong with the action itself. It's like lighting a fire. I might tell my twelve-year-old to use matches to light a campfire, while scolding my six-year-old for doing the same thing. The issue isn't that fire is inherently good or bad--it's that in one set of circumstances I've given an instruction that using matches is OK, whereas in another set of circumstances I've specifically prohibited the activity. The problem isn't the activity--the problem is the disobedience.

Why did the blessing of children have to come through an unrighteous act rather than the righteous act of obedience?

Again, in Mormon thought (and as I understand it, this is somewhat different from the Catholic teaching), the taking of the fruit per se was not "unrighteous".

[The Fall] "The event by which mankind became mortal. It resulted in a spiritual and physical separation from God. Because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God’s commandments, they were separated from His presence (this separation is also called spiritual death) and became mortal (subject to physical death). " But did they truly disobey if this is what they were taught to do?

Now, this is what my brain can't quite comprehend. God commanded our first parents to not eat the fruit of this tree, they disobeyed through the temptation of satan, but this is exactly what God wanted us to do?

In Mormonism, the motive for an action matters just as much as the action itself. Satan came to Adam and Eve suggesting that the Father was unjustly withholding knowledge. They bought into the argument, and partook of the fruit. They did the right thing, but for the wrong reason. Hence, the "transgression".

Satans temptations are bad and are to be ignored, but it's a good thing Adam and Eve did not ignore this one, b/c this was ultimately a good temptation even though it led to death and sin.

Well, let's put it like this: Adultery is wrong; but if a child is conceived of that adultery--well, the child himself can be a "good thing" even though he came into the world under less-than-ideal circumstances. We can talk about what a blessing that child has been and point out how, as a general rule, conception of a child must be preceded by certain activities; without saying "hey, what a great thing that specific act of adultery was!!!"

Satan was the one to cause our fall by his temptation. The fall was necessary for us to progress and for Jesus to atone. Satan, whether knowingly or not, caused the fall, so the blessing came from him...which was part of Gods plan all along. Satan did a good thing.

No!!!! What you've written is exactly what Satan wanted Adam and Eve to think--that he was the source of a blessing that, but for his involvement, Adam and Eve never would have attained. His game was, and is, to try to supplant God in the eyes of His creations. To my mind, Adam and Eve's temporarily falling for that ruse is precisely what made their action a "transgression" rather than a mere "choice".

Edited February 11, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Seminarysnoozer]

I hold to the notion that Satan did so for his own selfish reasons. If there was any service to G-d's plan it would not be relevant to him and not matter to him. I believe that the difference is that the mind of G-d is to provide a service and the mind of Satan is selfish. As to knowledge - I believe Satan knew what he was doing and understood the outcome. None of which mattered to him - he did what he wanted anyway.

The Traveler

You and I, I think, see knowledge differently. That may be because of our different backgrounds. I approach it from a medical science background and you from physical sciences. Knowledge, to me, is based in a set of experiences not just facts. We know things as they relate to other things. If I say, "with my last child, I had a c-section," one may understand what that is and all that comes with it but one wouldn't understand it in the same way as someone who has experienced it or has the ability to empathize with the experience at a very intimate level (i.e. - Jesus).

For the same reasons, we have to come to this Earth to have this experience to be like God, the facts alone is not the same knowledge as that contained in the sum of experiences that follow partaking of the fruit from the tree of death. Before coming here we all learned all the facts, including Satan, like you said. But, that does not mean he has the same knowledge and can appreciate the consequences in the same way. We learned so many facts that we couldn't learn any more facts. There was an end to our progression without coming here. That tells us facts alone do not provide all knowledge.

We know that when people follow Satan's temptations they become hardened and lose sight of truth. The process of pulling away from God is a loss. He may have at one time had knowledge but as the heart hardens and the eyes become blinded, knowledge is lost.

[faith4]

We label Adam and Eve's action a "transgression" because God told them not to do it (yet?), not because there was anything wrong with the action itself. It's like lighting a fire. I might tell my twelve-year-old to use matches to light a campfire, while scolding my six-year-old for doing the same thing. The issue isn't that fire is inherently good or bad--it's that in one set of circumstances I've given an instruction that using matches is OK, whereas in another set of circumstances I've specifically prohibited the activity. The problem isn't the activity--the problem is the disobedience.

In Mormonism, the motive for an action matters just as much as the action itself. Satan came to Adam and Eve suggesting that the Father was unjustly withholding knowledge. They bought into the argument, and partook of the fruit. They did the right thing, but for the wrong reason. Hence, the "transgression".

.

Our theology doesn't differ in respect to the tree or fruit itself. The fruit wasn't poisonous, so it's not the fruit in itself that's bad. And the action of eating fruit off a tree isn't what's bad, but it's the action of disobeying, which is the transgression. You would scold your 6 year old b/c it is not safe for him to light a fire w/matches, the actual action of him lighting the fire would get him in trouble, not the mere thought of lighting the fire. So the fire isn't inherently good or bad, we agree, but in the circumstances given by the adult, it can matter b/c you don't want your child to burn himself through disobedience. So, yes, I think we do agree on this point, however, the disobedience is in the action of being disobedient. Adam and Eve may have looked at the fruit on the forbidden tree and thought to themselves how good it looked, but did not eat it. They did not sin by thinking of the fruit, their actions of abstaining from the fruit is obedience, the action of eating the fruit is disobedience.

And wasn't satan right in telling Eve God was withholding information from her? She was taught in her pre-earth life about the plan, but had forgotten it. As a human now, God told her not to eat that fruit or it would introduce death. Did He remind her that if she ate the fruit she could progress and have children? If not, then that's unjustly withholding information from her, but if He did, then that would be something in the JST that's not in my bible

[Just_A_Guy]

And wasn't satan right in telling Eve God was withholding information from her? She was taught in her pre-earth life about the plan, but had forgotten it. As a human now, God told her not to eat that fruit or it would introduce death. Did He remind her that if she ate the fruit she could progress and have children? If not, then that's unjustly withholding information from her, but if He did, then that would be something in the JST that's not in my bible

I doubt the Bible--or Mormon scriptures like the Book of Moses, or even the Mormon temple liturgy (which goes into these events in some detail as well)--contain a complete representation of everything that went on in the garden; any more than the Gospels contain the complete record of the words and deeds of Jesus (John is very clear that they don't, by the way).

I do agree that, by telling Adam and Eve to not partake of the fruit, God was withholding information from them--to wit, the experiences and knowledge they would have gained by partaking of the fruit. I do not agree, however, that such a withholding of knowledge would be unjust. God teaches us a little at a time (see, e.g., Isiaah 28:10), and I see no reason why He wouldn't have been following a similar pattern even with our first parents.

[Traveler]

But whether selfish or not, satan did us a huge favor and participated in Gods plan after all and began the process of our progress to salvation, which is a blessing.

If Gods plan is to provide us a service, why tell Adam and Eve not to do something (but wanted us to do it for his plan anyway) but to do something else (have children, which technically couldn't be done yet)? Then punish us for doing what he wanted us to do? That seems backwards to me. Sin and death and separtion from God are pretty hefty punishments too for something God wanted us to do.

"Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes', and your 'No' mean 'No.' Anything more is from the evil one." Matt 5:37.

God loves us, the choice to obey or not was always there b/c the tree was there. God put that tree there, w/its delicious looking fruit to entice them, so that Adam and Eve did have a choice to obey God, and through their obedience, show their love in return for God. God told us not to eat this fruit, and we trust and love God, so we won't eat it. When they decided that the fruit did indeed look good enough to consume, they ignored Gods command and sinned, by pride (I know better than God, this fruit is pleasing to the eye therefore I deem it good for food).

Thank you for coming and providing insights by your point of view. It is my view that the epoch story of Eden is mostly symbolic. I am not sure that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was any more real than the Tree of Life (the tree of life being symbolic at least in part of G-d's love and service through Jesus Christ). To even the novice student of scripture it is apparent that G-d utilizes a great deal of symbolism throughout scripture to teach divine truths.

The question is - what is the knowledge of good and evil? I submit to you that through the experience of death one obtains the knowledge of evil and through the experience of the atonement and redemption of Christ one obtains the knowledge of good. At least this is the simplest description I know.

Another important consideration is understanding that all knowledge from G-d is given by covenant and as such is the definition of commandment. Thus not considering the advice of G-d may be definition be called a transgression but there are other possibilities. For example; not all warnings from G-d are sinful. It is obvious that the warning: "Thou shalt not steal" is somewhat different than "Beware of false prophets that come in sheep's clothing". It is a sin to steal but it is not a sin if one is approached by a false prophet in sheep's clothing although the possibility of being lead by a false prophet may be greater than to steal a minor item.

The point is that even a warning or advice from G-d is a commandment. The Eden warning was that to obtain knowledge of good and evil - one would suffer death. I have a hard time believing that Satan outsmarted G-d in Eden and as a result innocent children must be made to suffer and G-d had to change his original plan and start over with a inferior plan B.

The LDS doctrine is that G-d is just and gave man agency in order to choose to experience the fallen state of mortality. I believe it was G-d's plan A from the very beginning for man to choose to learn good from evil and then from what they learn choose good. I do not believe G-d loves ignorance - especially ignorance of good.

To be honest I cannot make much sense of the traditional Christian belief concerning the fall.

1. That knowledge is a sin.

2. That G-d's plan was ruined by Satan.

3. That G-d did not see Satan coming resulting in the ruining Adam and Eve and all mankind.

4. That G-d is not a little responsible for letting Satan deceive Adam and Eve who did not fully understand. Note that scripture testifies Satan beguiled Eve. Also a parent un-attending to their children in the presents of a known "attractive nuisance" by definition is an abusive parent (child abuser).

5. That the decedents of Adam and Eve were punished for a choice they did not or could not make.

The Traveler

[faith4]

I doubt the Bible--or Mormon scriptures like the Book of Moses, or even the Mormon temple liturgy (which goes into these events in some detail as well)--contain a complete representation of everything that went on in the garden; any more than the Gospels contain the complete record of the words and deeds of Jesus (John is very clear that they don't, by the way).

I do agree that, by telling Adam and Eve to not partake of the fruit, God was withholding information from them--to wit, the experiences and knowledge they would have gained by partaking of the fruit. I do not agree, however, that such a withholding of knowledge would be unjust. God teaches us a little at a time (see, e.g., Isiaah 28:10), and I see no reason why He wouldn't have been following a similar pattern even with our first parents.

:) I agree that God does teach us little by little as well. This teaching in particular, unique to your church, is just confusing to me since it seems contradictory, and God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, and we can trust His word to lead us. As far as how the Catholic Church teaches this subject, I am not confused, it does make sense to me. :)

Thank you for your time and answers!!

[Traveler]

You and I, I think, see knowledge differently. That may be because of our different backgrounds. I approach it from a medical science background and you from physical sciences. Knowledge, to me, is based in a set of experiences not just facts. We know things as they relate to other things. If I say, "with my last child, I had a c-section," one may understand what that is and all that comes with it but one wouldn't understand it in the same way as someone who has experienced it or has the ability to empathize with the experience at a very intimate level (i.e. - Jesus).

For the same reasons, we have to come to this Earth to have this experience to be like God, the facts alone is not the same knowledge as that contained in the sum of experiences that follow partaking of the fruit from the tree of death. Before coming here we all learned all the facts, including Satan, like you said. But, that does not mean he has the same knowledge and can appreciate the consequences in the same way. We learned so many facts that we couldn't learn any more facts. There was an end to our progression without coming here. That tells us facts alone do not provide all knowledge.

We know that when people follow Satan's temptations they become hardened and lose sight of truth. The process of pulling away from God is a loss. He may have at one time had knowledge but as the heart hardens and the eyes become blinded, knowledge is lost.

I do not think you and I see things so differently. I see knowledge not as facts but the ability to apply facts to understand and comprehend conclusions.

I think and believe that until facts are rightfully applied to understanding and comprehending conclusions one should justly be able to say - Woops, that's not what I intended. I honestly do not believe that anyone will at any time beg and plead before G-d to be forgiven for not fully understanding and comprehending conclusions and results with G-d saying - "too bad, so sad - go to He-- you fool." I believe he want to forgive and will forgive every one that wants to be forgiven.

With Satan I believe he knows what he is doing - he knows what it will all cause and what the results will be - and that G-d pleads with him to change his ways - and that Satan will have none of it - he does what he wants to do with full knowledge of it all. - Not just as facts but that Satan has experienced the misery of being cast off from G-d and still prefers his fate.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

:) I agree that God does teach us little by little as well. This teaching in particular, unique to your church, is just confusing to me since it seems contradictory, and God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, and we can trust His word to lead us. As far as how the Catholic Church teaches this subject, I am not confused, it does make sense to me. :)

Thank you for your time and answers!!

Could you be specific as to what you find confusing and contradictory concerning the LDS doctrine of the fall?

The Traveler

[faith4]

Thank you for coming and providing insights by your point of view. It is my view that the epoch story of Eden is mostly symbolic. I am not sure that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was any more real than the Tree of Life (the tree of life being symbolic at least in part of G-d's love and service through Jesus Christ). To even the novice student of scripture it is apparent that G-d utilizes a great deal of symbolism throughout scripture to teach divine truths.

The question is - what is the knowledge of good and evil? I submit to you that through the experience of death one obtains the knowledge of evil and through the experience of the atonement and redemption of Christ one obtains the knowledge of good. At least this is the simplest description I know.

Another important consideration is understanding that all knowledge from G-d is given by covenant and as such is the definition of commandment. Thus not considering the advice of G-d may be definition be called a transgression but there are other possibilities. For example; not all warnings from G-d are sinful. It is obvious that the warning: "Thou shalt not steal" is somewhat different than "Beware of false prophets that come in sheep's clothing". It is a sin to steal but it is not a sin if one is approached by a false prophet in sheep's clothing although the possibility of being lead by a false prophet may be greater than to steal a minor item.

The point is that even a warning or advice from G-d is a commandment. The Eden warning was that to obtain knowledge of good and evil - one would suffer death. I have a hard time believing that Satan outsmarted G-d in Eden and as a result innocent children must be made to suffer and G-d had to change his original plan and start over with a inferior plan B.

The LDS doctrine is that G-d is just and gave man agency in order to choose to experience the fallen state of mortality. I believe it was G-d's plan A from the very beginning for man to choose to learn good from evil and then from what they learn choose good. I do not believe G-d loves ignorance - especially ignorance of good.

To be honest I cannot make much sense of the traditional Christian belief concerning the fall.

1. That knowledge is a sin.

2. That G-d's plan was ruined by Satan.

3. That G-d did not see Satan coming resulting in the ruining Adam and Eve and all mankind.

4. That G-d is not a little responsible for letting Satan deceive Adam and Eve who did not fully understand. Note that scripture testifies Satan beguiled Eve. Also a parent un-attending to their children in the presents of a known "attractive nuisance" by definition is an abusive parent (child abuser).

5. That the decedents of Adam and Eve were punished for a choice they did not or could not make.

The Traveler

Traveler, thank you as well for your insights! :) Our Churchs respective teachings in this regard are very different. I cannot answer your points as well as a good book can, so I will just recommend two books for you if you're interested in making sense of the theology surrounding traditional teachings of Adam and Eve. The first is "A Father who Keeps his Promises (Gods Covenant Love in Scripture)" by Scott Hahn and the second is "Theology and Sanity" by Frank Sheed.

The question for me is not, what is knowledge of good and evil, it's why did God command them to not eat that fruit, and, to be fruitful and multiply when both commands were kind of useless. A transgression needed to happen for the fall and progression etc., and Adam and Eve coudn't have children. They transgressed, were punished, and could now have children when they were unable to before.

I don't believe satan outsmarted God in the garden either, there was, and is, no inferior plan B. And I don't believe God loves ignorance either, he gave us a brain and the ability to seek and know and to learn from our experiences, which is what we do every day of our life. God is just and His ways are perfect! We're on the same page! :)

Peace Traveler :)

[Finrock]

I can think of no better place to learn about the purpose of the Fall than from the Book of Mormon.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

From this scripture we learn some very important truths. First, God designed all things in wisdom because He knew all things. He also knew that there must be an opposition in all things. God created a scenario where opposition could take place. Also we learn that Satan's desire is to make others as miserable as he is. He knew that if Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have to leave paradise and live in the "lone and dreary" world where our mortal bodies would suffer all sorts of pain and discomfort and also where Satan would have power and could bring about the misery of mankind by attempting to lead them to hell.

Eve eventually realized that it was better for mankind to pass through sorrow so that they may learn joy, pleasure, and be able to differentiate between good and evil.

Furthermore we learn that even though God introduced the tree of knowledge of good and evil in opposition to the tree of life He did so in wisdom knowing that it is by having an opposition that will allow us to be refined and to experience mortality and thus making it possible for Him to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. However, He also provided a Savior who "...cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. That they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given."

This is the great plan. We are here to be tested. Mortality is a blessing. And so are our sufferings and trials. They are blessing that ultimately will refine us so that we can be pure like Heavenly Father through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

There simply is NO other way for us to become like Heavenly Father. We MUST past through mortality in a fallen state being enticed by our flesh and the temptations of the devil. But, God's plan provided for us a Savior who would cover for the sins of Adam and Eve and also through the Atonement we can become free to choose eternal life. There simply was no other way for these things to be accomplished except in the way that they were.

-Finrock

Edited February 13, 2014 by Finrock
Spelling and Grammar; added Chapter to quote; Corrected verse 26 mistakes; Further clarification

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do not think you and I see things so differently. I see knowledge not as facts but the ability to apply facts to understand and comprehend conclusions.

I think and believe that until facts are rightfully applied to understanding and comprehending conclusions one should justly be able to say - Woops, that's not what I intended. I honestly do not believe that anyone will at any time beg and plead before G-d to be forgiven for not fully understanding and comprehending conclusions and results with G-d saying - "too bad, so sad - go to He-- you fool." I believe he want to forgive and will forgive every one that wants to be forgiven.

With Satan I believe he knows what he is doing - he knows what it will all cause and what the results will be - and that G-d pleads with him to change his ways - and that Satan will have none of it - he does what he wants to do with full knowledge of it all. - Not just as facts but that Satan has experienced the misery of being cast off from G-d and still prefers his fate.

The Traveler

Thanks for your comments. I agree that he knows what he is doing and makes the choice to do it still but I believe he is also ignorant to the things that we will obtain by having a body. It is difficult to assess what that entails right now because I can't relate it to my premortal fund of knowledge yet. We do know, however, that this experience advances us beyond what we could get by just being a spirit alone. Satan doesn't have that privilege. He, therefore, is ignorant to those things.

What could that include? We don't know but it might be things like empathy, charity, appreciation for family etc. The soul is the body and spirit together, meaning the body adds something the spirit doesn't have by itself. Satan doesn't have that component. To me, that means that he cannot have full knowledge. He can only have the knowledge that pertains to the spirit realm as he wouldn't have any capacity for physical understanding. We have to acknowledge the advancement in understanding the physical body provides.

[Traveler]

Thanks for your comments. I agree that he knows what he is doing and makes the choice to do it still but I believe he is also ignorant to the things that we will obtain by having a body. It is difficult to assess what that entails right now because I can't relate it to my premortal fund of knowledge yet. We do know, however, that this experience advances us beyond what we could get by just being a spirit alone. Satan doesn't have that privilege. He, therefore, is ignorant to those things.

What could that include? We don't know but it might be things like empathy, charity, appreciation for family etc. The soul is the body and spirit together, meaning the body adds something the spirit doesn't have by itself. Satan doesn't have that component. To me, that means that he cannot have full knowledge. He can only have the knowledge that pertains to the spirit realm as he wouldn't have any capacity for physical understanding. We have to acknowledge the advancement in understanding the physical body provides.

So you believe that Satan would no longer be Satan (ignorant to certan things) if G-d would just let him have a full and complete physical and spiritual experience in order to understand the good he is missing out on?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

So you believe that Satan would no longer be Satan (ignorant to certan things) if G-d would just let him have a full and complete physical and spiritual experience in order to understand the good he is missing out on?

The Traveler

This is an impossibility, so I can't answer the question. He didn't merit receiving a body because of his personality and nature. That is like asking what kind of a doctor someone would be if they were allowed to go to Medical School despite an issue of them not graduating from High School and not having any interest in science or biology. It just wouldn't happen.

Does the body allow us to have certain knowledge we couldn't otherwise have? You don't think the answer is, "yes!" ??? Satan, not having a body, wouldn't have that type of knowledge.

[kmfor]

I just found this website to see if anyone else had this same question and to hopefully find an answer. I read this entire thread but all I see is guesses and theories. Does no one have a solid answer to this question? I've had this question on my mind for several years and have yet to hear an answer that makes sense. God did in fact COMMAND them not to eat the fruit. Joseph Fielding Smith said they didn't have blood so they couldn't multiply. Were they not commanded to multiply? Why would God give a commandment that cant be fulfilled? Nephi tells us God doesn't do that. So the way he provided was through disobedience to another commandment? That just doesn't fit. What Nephi said was "I know that the lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them". Any one KNOW the answer to this without guessing or theorizing? By all means please!

Then there's the "transgression" thing. Disobeying a commandment isn't a sin because what? I was told it was because of Adams intent But that answer could get people into trouble. Maybe there's another thread for that question. Quite a puzzle in my head here, sorry if It sounds like a rant.

[Praetorian_Brow]

You want concrete evidence for a story that may or may not be a religious plagiarism that is based on faith?

Independence is not possible without some degree of rebellion.

[Traveler]

This is an impossibility, so I can't answer the question. He didn't merit receiving a body because of his personality and nature. That is like asking what kind of a doctor someone would be if they were allowed to go to Medical School despite an issue of them not graduating from High School and not having any interest in science or biology. It just wouldn't happen.

Does the body allow us to have certain knowledge we couldn't otherwise have? You don't think the answer is, "yes!" ??? Satan, not having a body, wouldn't have that type of knowledge.

I think you are missing a most important point. It is possible to go to Medical School despite issues one has in their past. In fact that is the theme and purpose of the parable of the Prodigal Son. It is not a matter of Satan missing out on an opportunity and it being lost forever. I do not believe he is being punished for not going along with the program. I believe it is more about - if you take this path or way it will take you to Babylon. If you take this other path or way it will take you to Zion. The only way to get to Zion is to take the way to Zion.

In short I do not think you understand the difference between being unable to do a thing and being able to do a thing but choosing not to do it.

The Traveler