Crisis Of Faith

[Guest mamacat]

mine tooooo. :)

[Guest MrsS]

One of the hardest things about being a Bishop is......when people come in and tell you something and now you have to remain mutual. You have 2 people who have each told their side of the story and you have to remain mutual giving each the same love and compassion regardless of whether the one is right or wrong.

mutual = Mutual, reciprocal agree in the idea of an exchange or balance between two or more persons or groups. Mutual indicates an exchange of a feeling, obligation, etc., between two or more people, or an interchange of some kind between persons or things: mutual esteem; in mutual agreement. Reciprocal indicates a relation in which one act, thing, feeling, etc., balances or is given in return for another: reciprocal promises or favors.

neutral = Not aligned with, supporting, or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest.

Belonging to neither side in a controversy: on neutral ground.

Palerider- did you mean mutual or neutral?

[sixpacktr]

Palerider,

Hear, hear. Very well said. I truly believe the toughest calling in the church is Bishop, as he is our closest judge, and knows more than he wants to know about people and events. That also weighs heavily, I know.

[vitorino]

Hi there,

you shouldn't be thinking about how she made to get into the temple, as a bishop you take the person's word during the interview to give them a temple recommend... if she lies, that will affect her only, if she lies, she's digging her own grave (spiritual)... I'm very sorry, but local leaders, general authorities, we are all human, subject to failure, but keep in mind that it's the Lord's business, He is fair.

So as to your bishop, he did what he was supposed to, please don't blame him, it's not easy for him to do something like that, but he has to... he should be a wonderful man... next time you face financial difficulties, try this, pay your tithing faithfully, have faith, the Lord will keep his word, but if you really need help, don't be afraid to ask your bishop's help, the Church can help you with the fast offering fund, it's our right as Church members to be succored in difficult times...

Please, try forgiving the lady who brought such a terrible distress upon your family, this will surely bring you relief and help you overcome those bitter feelings which are in heart

[Missitta]

Thank you for everyones responses. It's nice to have so many perspectives on things.

I am doing better withe the whole church letdown thing. With the help of some people on here I realize that bishops are human and can makes mistakes as well as that I don't know what happened after we cleared my husband's name. Now my husband is having a hard time with things. He hadn't been to church for a couple weeks due to an illness and yesterday at church, some feelings came back I guess he hadn't considered. He said he feels there were only two ways that things could have ended the way they did...either she admitted she did in fact sleep with a married man and it wasn't my husband or she admitted she lied about messing with a married man at all. Hubby says either way he is very aggrivated that she was able to get her temple recommend and he wants to talk to our bishop about it since he says he is angry at her bishop and stake president. I have been telling him how being on this site has helped me and have relayed some of the advice I have gotten, but he still feels he needs to hear it from "the horses mouth" so to speak. I personally am not sure how speaking to our current bishop is going to help us get to the bottom of things too much since he wasn't involved in any of it but hubby said he wants bishop to know that this whole thing has made him lose his faith in some ways. I guess if anyone should know about losing faith it should be your bishop.

As for forgiving the girl, it will take time. Some days are better than others. I have realized I have so many good things in my life and I figure she realized that as well...else why would she have gone after my husband? I still struggle with feelings of betrayal and anget but they have lessoned for the most part.

Even if I am able to fogive her I am not sure I will even be okay with the situation. I have lost a lot of trust in people and am very cautious with who I associate with. This leads to a question...is it really forgiveness if you aren't mad at the person but you are still mad about the situation?

[Hikchick]

To be honest, I don't quite know how to answer your question. I've struggled with that question myself. I admire your willingness to listen (or even ask for that matter!) for help. It takes strength and willingness to listen and be taught. You are that much further ahead for doing this. Hearing your story makes me sad for the situation that you and your husband have had to endure. However, if you use it correctly it will only strengthen your relationship. I would encourage your husband to speak with the Bishop. He quite possibly will have more information than anyone here has been able to give. I am praying for you all and hope that this can become a stepping stone (with time) instead of a stumbling block. Let your husband know that he's got my families prayers and best wishes. The same go for you. I don't envy the struggles this has brought to your family. What I am hoping for is that you can find the blessings in this challenge. Sometimes with anger it's easier to focus on the damage. God bless!

[Hikchick]

As I've pondered this today the thought that kept coming to my mind was you need to forgive her but we are not required to forget. In fact unless she makes an honest effort in asking and earning your forgivness, I think it would be foolish to try to forget her trespass. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I've thought of.

[sixpacktr]

Hikchik,

Your sentiments were exactly what I thought until about 4-5 weeks ago. The PH/RS lesson was about forgiveness, and Pres Kimball stated that we cannot say we forgive if we refuse to forget.

I must admit I have a hard time with that...

But we are commanded to obey a higher law.

[Hikchick]

But if we forgive someone, does it mean that they have our trust again? So if we forget then we are vulnerable... I must admit that this one has me in a quandry! :S

[sixpacktr]

I know. When we had that lesson a couple of weeks ago it hit me a like a ton of bricks.

I really am not sure how to go about doing this. I go by the old saw "do it to me once, shame on you, do it to me twice, shame on me", and thought it was okay to be that way.

But if we remember Christ, I'm sure that Judas Iscariot didn't just on the eve of the crucifixion decide to turn against him. I'm sure that there were offenses and rebukes that slowly turned his heart against Christ. And yet Christ continued to allow him close access, etc. Did Christ do it because he knew that Judas had a role to perform, or because he forgave completely and allowed that to happen to him thru that?

I really don't know. It will take some time.

[Guest Username-Removed]

My person thoughts are that trust and forgiveness are separate. I dont believe Christ gives us everything after he forgives us. We dont get all the riches in the world right away when we pay our tithing. We dont get all the challenges of the priesthood as soon as we are set apart. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

I can forgive, but it doesnt mean I set myself up for having that trust stomped on again. We not only do ourselves a disfavor, we also arent doing the untrustworthy a favor.

To take it further, I do believe we need to take some risk, and alow people to earn thier trust - that doesnt mean I give everyone in the ward a key to my house!

[sixpacktr]

WordFlood,

I understand, but here is what we read from the Spencer Kimball book:

Our forgiveness of others must be heartfelt and complete. The command to forgive and the condemnation which follows failure to do so could not be stated more plainly than in this modern revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

“My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

“Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

“I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” (D&C 64:8–10.) …

The lesson stands for us today. Many people, when brought to a reconciliation with others, say that they forgive, but they continue to hold malice, continue to suspect the other party, continue to disbelieve the other’s sincerity. This is sin, for when a reconciliation has been effected and when repentance is claimed, each should forgive and forget, build immediately the fences which have been breached, and restore the former compatibility.

The early disciples evidently expressed words of forgiveness, and on the surface made the required adjustment, but “forgave not one another in their hearts.” This was not a forgiveness, but savored of hypocrisy and deceit and subterfuge. As implied in Christ’s model prayer, it must be a heart action and a purging of one’s mind [see Matthew 6:12; see also verses 14–15]. Forgiveness means forgetfulness. One woman had “gone through” a reconciliation in a branch and had made the physical motions and verbal statements indicating it, and expressed the mouthy words [of] forgiving. Then with flashing eyes, she remarked, “I will forgive her, but I have a memory like an elephant. I’ll never forget.” Her pretended adjustment was valueless and void. She still harbored the bitterness. Her words of friendship were like a spider’s web, her rebuilt fences were as straw, and she herself continued to suffer without peace of mind. Worse still, she stood “condemned before the Lord,” and there remained in her an even greater sin than in the one who, she claimed, had injured her.

Little did this antagonistic woman realize that she had not forgiven at all. She had only made motions. She was spinning her wheels and getting nowhere. In the scripture quoted above, the phrase in their hearts has deep meaning. It must be a purging of feelings and thoughts and bitternesses. Mere words avail nothing.

“For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.” (Moro. 7:8.)

Henry Ward Beecher expressed the thought this way: “I can forgive but I cannot forget is another way of saying I cannot forgive.”

I may add that unless a person forgives his brother his trespasses with all his heart he is unfit to partake of the sacrament.5

Hence my suddenly sitting up in PH meeting and asking about this. I don't think Pres Kimball was playing with words here. He meant forgive and forget. Not I forgive you, I love you, but I'll never trust you again, etc.

Obviously, it being PH meeting we immediately launched into what he really meant by this, and nothing sounded right to me. Several tried to rationalize it, saying "Well, he didn't mean you trust someone that has robbed you, etc. You can't be stupid about things." (kind of like my previous post about shame on you). However, that is not what Pres Kimball says. That is not what the Savior taught. We must forgive and forget and restore them to their former position in our lives.

I have a hard time with it. That was a shock to me. I don't even know if I can do it in some instances because of the pride I have (yes, it is pride Brothers and Sisters , not our being smart about things). I guess that is one I'll have to turn over to the Lord and pray for the best.

[Missitta]

Good Gravy! That's going to be so hard!

Sorry but that was my first thought after reading the responses. Does this mean to trully forgive her if she wants back into my life I have to let her? Isn't it okay to just say I forgive you but I would rather you stay away? I honestly feel that letting her or (former) best firend back into our lives will just lead to problems...but who knows what time will bring.

Man how do you trust someone again after they do something like she did to me and my family?

[a-train]

Six,

So does this mean you would find no objection to calling a previously convicted and now repented pedophile to teach the Sunbeams?

I would say that many suffer from afflictions such as pedophilic attractions, kleptomania, temptations of chemical abuse, and all sorts of diverse infirmities that THEY must be protected against. We must understand that putting certain people in certain positions can pose a danger to them in consequence of their condition. Furthermore, they may be disinclined to gaurd themselves, but require the help of others.

Let us not imagine that such can be ignored and with both the interests of the abused and the afflicted abuser in mind, let us be wise in the extension of priviliges and duties that require healthy and prepared stewards to perform in a manner that could become impossible to those so indisposed by mental or physical afflictions that could lead to the most damaging and ensnaring consequences.

Now it is when we who have not keys nor dominion over those in question and in the spirit of bitterness seek to prevent them from obtaining stewardships and the blessings thereto attached because of the grudge held in our hearts while those in authority have examined the individual and found them worthy to be so endowed; it is then that we are unforgiving.

Take Crimson's situation, if he will allow me. I am certain he bares no grudge against his father who has spoken against him and even acted violently toward him while Crimson was in the very act of administering to him. Crimson loves him and forgives him instantly. But Crimson is no fool. He knows his father's temper and attitude is due to the infirmity presented by the auto-accident in which he was injured. He therefore takes precaution to avoid the further distress of violent situations brought on by his father's affliction.

Is he forgiving? OF COURSE! Not for a second did he seek blame or judgement.

We too must understand the difference between those who in a moment of poor judgement make a mistake and those who have a disorder or malady that before cured can impair and bring ruin upon the individual whose affliction needs not only forgiveness, but real healing.

-a-train

[angelbaby]

At the end of the day, as hard as it is, we all need to remember that people who do wrong by us / the Lord / anyone else, they will get their "reward" for their actions. Don't let her lies and disgusting behaviour shake your faith. She has agency, and she's abused it. Who ever gave her a temple recommend had agency, and he's clearly not followed the councel of the spirit, or, perhaps he did and some how she'll learn from all this, maybe be touched in the temple and make a turn around. The latter sounds pretty unlikely, but either way, don't let it bring you down. You've done what you can, trust the Lord with the rest. She'll get what she deserves.

It's not the Lord whois imperfect, or the gospel; it's leaders who aren't in tune with the spirit. It's people abusing the trust of leaders, or set bad examples. Remember Heavenly father knows how everything will turn out. Just trust Him.