Spirit, Life and Dark Energy

[Traveler]

Dark energy is new to the scientific community. As such it is new to everyone else as well; the difference being that only the scientific community seems to be interested. Many, especially in the religious community, seem to me to have the attitude – is such knowledge or understanding necessary for my salvation? Someday I may address this wayward or anti doctrine but for now I would like to explorer some thoughts that may not be of much interest on a forum such as this – but I am going to address some thoughts about “Dark Energy” under the heading of LDS doctrine.

To begin; no one knows what Dark Energy is. No one has found any particles of the stuff. All that we know of it is by observation effects of it indirectly on our universe – which is to cause the acceleration in the expansion of the universe. In short I would ask the question – “Is or could Dark Energy be Spiritual or Divine Energy?”

It is believed that our universe is mostly dark energy – to the tune of about 75% of stuff in our universe is dark energy. It is called dark energy because it does not generate detectable light (electromagnetic radiation). Dark energy is by nature stuff that is unseen or even seeable. Dark energy is believed to be the foundational fabric of space time. It seems to be in and throughout everything that exists. It seems to be the scientific equivalent to the LDS revealed understanding of spirit, the spirit of G-d and spirit matter. I say seems because no one that I know of has quantified ether spirit matter or dark energy in order to synthase any useable empirical definition. In essence – dark energy seems to be giving “life” force to a growing or expanding universe.

So – in light of LDS doctrine and scientific astrological theory – is anyone interested or open to a discussion of the speculative possibility that dark energy is tightly coupled to LDS doctrine of spirit matter?

The Traveler

[whirlieking]

Dark energy is new to the scientific community. As such it is new to everyone else as well; the difference being that only the scientific community seems to be interested. Many, especially in the religious community, seem to me to have the attitude – is such knowledge or understanding necessary for my salvation? Someday I may address this wayward or anti doctrine but for now I would like to explorer some thoughts that may not be of much interest on a forum such as this – but I am going to address some thoughts about “Dark Energy” under the heading of LDS doctrine.

To begin; no one knows what Dark Energy is. No one has found any particles of the stuff. All that we know of it is by observation effects of it indirectly on our universe – which is to cause the acceleration in the expansion of the universe. In short I would ask the question – “Is or could Dark Energy be Spiritual or Divine Energy?”

It is believed that our universe is mostly dark energy – to the tune of about 75% of stuff in our universe is dark energy. It is called dark energy because it does not generate detectable light (electromagnetic radiation). Dark energy is by nature stuff that is unseen or even seeable. Dark energy is believed to be the foundational fabric of space time. It seems to be in and throughout everything that exists. It seems to be the scientific equivalent to the LDS revealed understanding of spirit, the spirit of G-d and spirit matter. I say seems because no one that I know of has quantified ether spirit matter or dark energy in order to synthase any useable empirical definition. In essence – dark energy seems to be giving “life” force to a growing or expanding universe.

So – in light of LDS doctrine and scientific astrological theory – is anyone interested or open to a discussion of the speculative possibility that dark energy is tightly coupled to LDS doctrine of spirit matter?

The Traveler

I dont like to speculate a lot, because I feel I lack a lot of knowledge in other more important areas. But I have thought of the idea a bit. Maybe it is how God operates Priesthood and faith so that miracles happen.

We cannot see when this dark matter or dark energy are interacting with what we can sense and perceive. So if we are in the drowning in the ocean and we pray for help, God may command this energy and it pushes us out of the water. Or someone is being shot at in a war and a sharpshooter has an easy shot and he cant hit a guy running away only to find out he was a member of the church. Maybe what happened there was the darkmatter came together and absorbed the bullet. But it was how God operated the matter in a way that is unseen by us.

We know God works by laws and so he is using this medium to make the miracles happen for us.

Potentially there might be more than just "dark matter." What if there are like three or 4 gradations of matter. Like when they say the Spirit World is here, what if it is a different gradation of matter/element? All Spirit is matter but either more refined and one with purer eyes can behold the less refined matter.

Just some ideas, that is the extent of my thinking though so I wouldnt have much more to add to a conversation, but if you want someone for devil's advocate I might be able to accomadate, though I am a little busy. And I'll not pretend that I am an expert either, I have some knowledge at basic levels of physics and that is about it.

Also, to directly answer your two questions, Yes I think that this dark energy could be tied to spiritual power and energy. And as far as dark matter relating to spirit matter. I'd say that spirit matter is everything, and dark matter is the worldly view/understanding of what remains from our known matter. And so it seems like spirit matter might fit with the gradations of matter. Spirit matter is either more refined or coarse. That's how I see it.

[whirlieking]

I also realized I mentioned dark matter in addition to the dark energy. That is purposeful because I believe that they both fit with the idea of two agents, one to act and the other to be acted upon. Matter/element to be acted upon, Energy to act for itself. Just like in our world and view of the two.

Element and Spirit. I believe that when I am righteous I do possess some form of a positive energy. I believe in Chi and how we possess a certain energy. I can feel when people leave a house. I can feel when people are in a public bathroom. There is energy emanating from the spirit of the other individuals. The element is just the tabernacle or encasing for those spirits.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So – in light of LDS doctrine and scientific astrological theory – is anyone interested or open to a discussion of the speculative possibility that dark energy is tightly coupled to LDS doctrine of spirit matter?

The Traveler

The hypothetical idea of dark energy cannot be related to spirit matter or force as it is described as an energy km/m^3. Spirit matter cannot be measured or observed in any form or fashion through physical eyes unless the physical eyes undergo some transformation to allow for such observations. By definition, anything we observe or expect to record or measure in physical terms or hope to observe through physical means (hypothetical observations) cannot be spirit matter.

Also a force that causes continual disorder (entropy) does not seem to be consistent with what spiritual forces do. The Celestial Kingdom is described as one, the Telestial Kingdom is described as various as one star varies in brightness from another. Spiritual forces drive towards oneness, the opposite direction of this hypothetical dark energy force. Maybe "dark" is the appropriate adjective.

[NeuroTypical]

So – in light of LDS doctrine and scientific astrological theory – is anyone interested or open to a discussion of the speculative possibility that dark energy is tightly coupled to LDS doctrine of spirit matter?

Not at all. Speculation is fun.

What gets my goat, is when some zealous person with some pet theory tells me I'm not sufficiently righteous if I disagree.

Consider this thread.

Consider this comment:

This book is not necessarily needful information or revelation necessary for the whole Church at present. If it doesn't strengthen your faith and inspire your mind and soul, put off this portion of your eternal progression until the day you are able to handle it. There is nothing wrong with not running faster than you are able.

As long as nobody attacks folks who aren't buying certain opinions, with such veiled "you just aren't spiritually mature enough" jabs, I'm happy to speculate and guess about dark energy with everyone else.

[Vort]

Not at all. Speculation is fun.

What gets my goat, is when some zealous person with some pet theory tells me I'm not sufficiently righteous if I disagree.

Consider this thread.

Consider this comment:As long as nobody attacks folks who aren't buying certain opinions, with such veiled "you just aren't spiritually mature enough" jabs, I'm happy to speculate and guess about dark energy with everyone else.

But LM, when I call you immature, I'm just making a simple observation. But when you call me immature, you're engaging in unwarranted personal attack!

Tragedy: I fall down and twist my ankle.

Comedy: You fall down and break your neck.

[Traveler]

The hypothetical idea of dark energy cannot be related to spirit matter or force as it is described as an energy km/m^3. Spirit matter cannot be measured or observed in any form or fashion through physical eyes unless the physical eyes undergo some transformation to allow for such observations. By definition, anything we observe or expect to record or measure in physical terms or hope to observe through physical means (hypothetical observations) cannot be spirit matter.

The complete theoretical calculation is a mass-energy calculation that comes to 1.67 × 10-27 kg/m3. Using this as related to possible attempts to discover any of this stuff in our own solar system (inside the Kipber Belt) would be about 6 tons and when trying to measure (distinguish) that against the sun, all the planets and asteroids in the same region - that amount could easily be lost in "experimental error". My point in all this is that even though we do not have any physical means to actually make such measurements - does not mean that we never will. Obviously G-d has a solution to this very problem.

Also a force that causes continual disorder (entropy) does not seem to be consistent with what spiritual forces do. The Celestial Kingdom is described as one, the Telestial Kingdom is described as various as one star varies in brightness from another. Spiritual forces drive towards oneness, the opposite direction of this hypothetical dark energy force. Maybe "dark" is the appropriate adjective.

Perhaps you are not seeing the forest for all the trees. All energy and matter conforms to the second law of thermal dynamics (entropy). But with dark energy we just do not know any more about it than we do spirit matter. To quote from NASA's official website:

Dark Energy

In the early 1990's, one thing was fairly certain about the expansion of the Universe. It might have enough energy density to stop its expansion and recollapse, it might have so little energy density that it would never stop expanding, but gravity was certain to slow the expansion as time went on. Granted, the slowing had not been observed, but, theoretically, the Universe had to slow. The Universe is full of matter and the attractive force of gravity pulls all matter together. Then came 1998 and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) observations of very distant supernovae that showed that, a long time ago, the Universe was actually expanding more slowly than it is today. So the expansion of the Universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.

Eventually theorists came up with three sorts of explanations. Maybe it was a result of a long-discarded version of Einstein's theory of gravity, one that contained what was called a "cosmological constant." Maybe there was some strange kind of energy-fluid that filled space. Maybe there is something wrong with Einstein's theory of gravity and a new theory could include some kind of field that creates this cosmic acceleration. Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is, but they have given the solution a name. It is called dark energy.

In other words "Dark Energy" is just a label we have given to what we do not know so we can talk about it. Since it is just a label - what is wrong with "Spiritual forces"? At least until we know that spiritual forces have nothing what-so-ever to do with it? Which, if you think about it contradicts that G-d is very likely actively involved in the expansion of the universe.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

BTW - just for information - I have yet to see any adjustments to the age of the universe that currently reflects what we think we know about Dark Energy. But one thing for sure - since we have based our current understanding to the Big Bang Theory and going backwards to that - now knowing that something other that gravity is involved - the Universe should be younger than we have thought - but it is still not 6,000 years or so.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

In other words "Dark Energy" is just a label we have given to what we do not know so we can talk about it. Since it is just a label - what is wrong with "Spiritual forces"? At least until we know that spiritual forces have nothing what-so-ever to do with it? Which, if you think about it contradicts that G-d is very likely actively involved in the expansion of the universe.

The Traveler

That is fine but the problem is that there is an attempt to quantify it in terms of mass or energy. If that is possible, no matter how small the amount, then, by definition, it is course matter and not fine matter. In other words, anything measurable in terms of physical measurement and quantification for us in our current state is not spirit matter.

Our universe is not "His" universe. We do not live in God's Celestial realm right now. A transformation would have to take place for that to occur. I guess it just depends on how far one thinks we have fallen from Celestial existence to our current state. If one thinks that our current existence is almost exactly like a Celestial realm then I suppose we could hypothesize about our physical findings and theories representing Celestial forces and matter. But, I tend to believe we "fell" a very far distance that makes His realm unreachable by man. No matter how advanced our technology, our modern tower of Babel will not reach God.

[Traveler]

That is fine but the problem is that there is an attempt to quantify it in terms of mass or energy. If that is possible, no matter how small the amount, then, by definition, it is course matter and not fine matter. In other words, anything measurable in terms of physical measurement and quantification for us in our current state is not spirit matter.

By what definition is there course and fine matter? I am also unaware that there is no actual or meaningful connection between spirit matter and divinely created matter. Can you give me a source? I am inclined to think this is your opinion - not that it is not correct. I am just wondering why you think so?

Our universe is not "His" universe. We do not live in God's Celestial realm right now. A transformation would have to take place for that to occur. I guess it just depends on how far one thinks we have fallen from Celestial existence to our current state. If one thinks that our current existence is almost exactly like a Celestial realm then I suppose we could hypothesize about our physical findings and theories representing Celestial forces and matter. But, I tend to believe we "fell" a very far distance that makes His realm unreachable by man. No matter how advanced our technology, our modern tower of Babel will not reach God.

It is my understanding that if a Celestial being were to stand in all their glory in our presents that we would be consumed by it as surely as if we were to stand on the surface of our sun. To be in the presents of a Celestial being requires that we be shielded or protected by the Holy Ghost - it is my understanding that this is in part why the man Adam was sent from G-d the Father when the fall occurred. My point is that there is of necessity a very real and empirical connection between spirit and physical. Just because we do not know yet how to measure such a connection does not mean that G-d does not know such things or that he cannot ever make such things know when it is proper to do so.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

By what definition is there course and fine matter? I am also unaware that there is no actual or meaningful connection between spirit matter and divinely created matter. Can you give me a source? I am inclined to think this is your opinion - not that it is not correct. I am just wondering why you think so?

It is my understanding that if a Celestial being were to stand in all their glory in our presents that we would be consumed by it as surely as if we were to stand on the surface of our sun. To be in the presents of a Celestial being requires that we be shielded or protected by the Holy Ghost - it is my understanding that this is in part why the man Adam was sent from G-d the Father when the fall occurred. My point is that there is of necessity a very real and empirical connection between spirit and physical. Just because we do not know yet how to measure such a connection does not mean that G-d does not know such things or that he cannot ever make such things know when it is proper to do so.

The Traveler

Not shielded or protected but transformed. We cannot see it with natural eyes, on our current state. Even if one is righteous a transformation would have to take place to see it.

D&C 131; " 7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."

When are our bodies purified? Either with a transformation like what happened with Moses and Joseph Smith or when we are resurrected. But some scientist gazing into the cosmos, even with the best of technology, is not seeing with "purer eyes".

Moses 1: " 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth." and " 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

Joseph Smith; “all things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and … are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,355) Doctrine and Covenants study guide, section 137; "Such visions involve a spiritual transformation that makes the connection with earthly things far away."

[garryw]

Also a force that causes continual disorder (entropy) does not seem to be consistent with what spiritual forces do.

Entropy is not a force. Entropy has units of Joules/Kelvin and force has units of Newtons. Also entropy doesn't cause anything, it results from things.

Edited February 12, 2014 by garryw

[Seminarysnoozer]

Entropy is not a force. Entropy has units of Joules/Kelvin and force has units of Newtons. Also entropy doesn't cause anything, it results from things.

Not sure what you are talking about. I didn't say entropy caused anything. And I didn't say that entropy was a force. Read the sentence again.

Traveler's OP states; "All that we know of it is by observation effects of it indirectly on our universe – which is to cause the acceleration in the expansion of the universe."

What would you call something that "accelerates the expansion of the universe"?

Definition of force; "strength or energy as an attribute of physical action or movement." ... We are calling it an energy - "dark energy" and hypothetically saying it is involved in physical movement. What else do you want in order to call it a force?

From; "Towards a Thermodynamic Theory for Ecological Systems". Elsevier.; "The relationship between entropy, order, and disorder in the Boltzmann equation is so clear among physicists that according to the views of thermodynamic ecologists Sven Jorgensen and Yuri Svirezhev, “it is obvious that entropy is a measure of order or, most likely, disorder in the system.” In this direction, the second law of thermodynamics, as famously enunciated by Rudolf Clausius in 1865, states that: “The entropy of the universe tends to a maximum.”

Thus, if entropy is associated with disorder and if the entropy of the universe is headed towards maximal entropy, then many are often puzzled as to the nature of the "ordering" process and operation of evolution in relation to Clausius' most famous version of the second law, which states that the universe is headed towards maximal “disorder”."

Laws of thermodynamics relate mostly to isolated systems and reversible systems, therefore I wasn't using the term as a statement of physical properties in this case but more of the definition "gradual decline into disorder." That is why I put it in parentheses. As stated by Clausius - The universe is headed towards maximal disorder. We want to call the thing that is making the universe head towards maximal disorder a spiritual force? That, I don't understand.

[Traveler]

Not shielded or protected but transformed. We cannot see it with natural eyes, on our current state. Even if one is righteous a transformation would have to take place to see it.

D&C 131; " 7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."

When are our bodies purified? Either with a transformation like what happened with Moses and Joseph Smith or when we are resurrected. But some scientist gazing into the cosmos, even with the best of technology, is not seeing with "purer eyes".

Moses 1: " 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth." and " 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

Joseph Smith; “all things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and … are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,355) Doctrine and Covenants study guide, section 137; "Such visions involve a spiritual transformation that makes the connection with earthly things far away."

I have marked contradictory elements of your post in red. Anyway I think they are contradictory because it is my impression that you do not believe that there is any physical means to detect divine elements. The reason we cannot behold such things with our physical eyes is not because it is un-detectable but because there is so much power being transmitted to our physical sensors that our meager physical eyes would be overloaded and destroyed by the experience. You marked well that Joseph gave witness that his natural eyes could not behold - but you should have read just the next few words as to why. If Joseph was not protected - he would have "withered and died".

The Traveler

[Traveler]

...

What would you call something that "accelerates the expansion of the universe"?

...

You are jumping to conclusions here. Just because something is increasing in size does not mean that it is causing dis-order. For example a growing organism must accelerate its expansion". All we know is that the universe is expanding in an accelerated rate. To date no one knows why? The very fabric of space time in expanding. It thought that in essence our space time was stretching in that kinetic energy was being transformed into potential energy and thus gravity would slow the expansion down. Much like stretching spring.

I personally have speculated that there is another dimension at play and that if this is the case there are ways to verify this possibility - In essence we would need to calculate interacting forces based on volumes (cubed) rather than areas (squared). That we could see a delta shift based on the speed of light from the volume center of intersecting particles traveling in opposite directions at near the speed of light.

Thus, dark energy is not universally consistent but like gravity is more concentrated with physical mass that dark energy would be concentrated with spiritual mass. That like spirit energy gives life, and with life, growth to organisms we observe - the universe is also a kind of life that is growing. Or as LDS theology expresses - The living G-d is expanding his creations in what we LDS call "eternal progression".

The Traveler

Edited February 13, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have marked contradictory elements of your post in red. Anyway I think they are contradictory because it is my impression that you do not believe that there is any physical means to detect divine elements. The reason we cannot behold such things with our physical eyes is not because it is un-detectable but because there is so much power being transmitted to our physical sensors that our meager physical eyes would be overloaded and destroyed by the experience. You marked well that Joseph gave witness that his natural eyes could not behold - but you should have read just the next few words as to why. If Joseph was not protected - he would have "withered and died".

The Traveler

D&C 131 suggests pretty clearly that it cannot be done. The word "only" is very strong. The statement in verse 8; "We cannot see it" is very strong.

God's glory and power gives life, not death. Right after "withered and died" it says that the glory of God was on him which allowed him to be transformed so he could withstand the presence of God. Without the glory of God, one would wither and die. Without being transformed it is not detectable and that is well believed.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are jumping to conclusions here. Just because something is increasing in size does not mean that it is causing dis-order. For example a growing organism must accelerate its expansion". All we know is that the universe is expanding in an accelerated rate. To date no one knows why? The very fabric of space time in expanding. It thought that in essence our space time was stretching in that kinetic energy was being transformed into potential energy and thus gravity would slow the expansion down. Much like stretching spring.

I personally have speculated that there is another dimension at play and that if this is the case there are ways to verify this possibility - In essence we would need to calculate interacting forces based on volumes (cubed) rather than areas (squared). That we could see a delta shift based on the speed of light from the volume center of intersecting particles traveling in opposite directions at near the speed of light.

Thus, dark energy is not universally consistent but like gravity is more concentrated with physical mass that dark energy would be concentrated with spiritual mass. That like spirit energy gives life, and with life, growth to organisms we observe - the universe is also a kind of life that is growing. Or as LDS theology expresses - The living G-d is expanding his creations in what we LDS call "eternal progression".

The Traveler

Not sure why you are saying that I am jumping to conclusions, that was not my idea. It came from well known scientists in the field, Clausius, etc.

Also, if Dark Energy relates to some spiritual force; look around you and tell me where you could point in any direction and tell me that there is no spirit there. In other words, the spirit force is ubiquitous. It would be a white-out to us. I think it is a huge jump in supposition (talk about jumping to conclusions) to suggest that spirit energy is more concentrated in one area or another. We don't know if concentration relates to force or energy, even if the spirit is stronger in one area or another. Again, remember we are talking about a realm that is not part of our current state of being. One of the direct comparisons we have is from Moses in which the degree of difference is what Moses said, "man is nothing." The spirit force would be a huge white-out from the perspective of nothingness.

Stephen Hawking; "It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics. This says that the total amount of disorder, or entropy, in the universe, always increases with time."

The famous physicist Roger Penrose stated that the universe started out from a "highly ordered initial state" and that is why it naturally moves to a more disordered state.

Sir Arthur Eddington, professor of astronomy at Cambridge University in England; "The law that entropy always increases (the Second Law of Thermodynamics) holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations [on electricity], then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations... But if your theory is found to be against the Second Law of Thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; There is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation."

Every 2 year old quickly realizes that if one wants to make the food on the plate look smaller, spread it around. Expansion in area is not really expansion. God doesn't just spread things around in a greater area to make it look bigger.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

D&C 131 suggests pretty clearly that it cannot be done. The word "only" is very strong. The statement in verse 8; "We cannot see it" is very strong.

God's glory and power gives life, not death. Right after "withered and died" it says that the glory of God was on him which allowed him to be transformed so he could withstand the presence of God. Without the glory of God, one would wither and die. Without being transformed it is not detectable and that is well believed.

We must be careful how we interpret scriptures - and especially individual words. Our natural eyes cannot see inferred wavelength of light but that does not mean that it is impossible for man to use inferred light to "see" better in the dark with assistance from discovered or learned technologies.

Also in scripture it may be difficult to understand the "spiritual" difference between "cannot" and "will not". For example in another thread it was discussed that Satan did not know the mind of G-d. What was the reason? Because he could not or would not? To debate to the end if the reason is could not or would not is pointless because the debate does not change the condition.

It would seem that the answer to the question - can fallen man see and know the truth of G-d? The answer is that some will and some will not. Jesus put it this way - to him that ask or seeks - they will see and know. Those that do not ask or see - they cannot see and cannot know.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

We must be careful how we interpret scriptures - and especially individual words. Our natural eyes cannot see inferred wavelength of light but that does not mean that it is impossible for man to use inferred light to "see" better in the dark with assistance from discovered or learned technologies.

Also in scripture it may be difficult to understand the "spiritual" difference between "cannot" and "will not". For example in another thread it was discussed that Satan did not know the mind of G-d. What was the reason? Because he could not or would not? To debate to the end if the reason is could not or would not is pointless because the debate does not change the condition.

It would seem that the answer to the question - can fallen man see and know the truth of G-d? The answer is that some will and some will not. Jesus put it this way - to him that ask or seeks - they will see and know. Those that do not ask or see - they cannot see and cannot know.

The Traveler

You are right, we have to be careful how we interpret scriptures as we are talking about spiritual things. If we want to relate the scriptures to the topic at hand we have to suggest that Dark Energy is spiritual in nature, that is what you are suggesting. If that is true then that kind of truth is obtained spiritually. Man can know the truth of God through spiritual means and by putting off the natural man. Man can know the truth of God by not seeing through natural eyes but spiritual eyes. That was my point.

D&C;11 " 11 For, behold, it is I that speak; behold, I am the light which shineth in darkness, and by my power I give these words unto thee.

12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy;

14 And then shall ye know, or by this shall you know, all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining unto things of righteousness, in faith believing in me that you shall receive."

[Traveler]

You are right, we have to be careful how we interpret scriptures as we are talking about spiritual things. If we want to relate the scriptures to the topic at hand we have to suggest that Dark Energy is spiritual in nature, that is what you are suggesting. If that is true then that kind of truth is obtained spiritually. Man can know the truth of God through spiritual means and by putting off the natural man. Man can know the truth of God by not seeing through natural eyes but spiritual eyes. That was my point.

D&C;11 " 11 For, behold, it is I that speak; behold, I am the light which shineth in darkness, and by my power I give these words unto thee.

12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy;

14 And then shall ye know, or by this shall you know, all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining unto things of righteousness, in faith believing in me that you shall receive."

Are you saying that someone studying the truth of science has an advantage if they study out of righteousness with faith in G-d?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are you saying that someone studying the truth of science has an advantage if they study out of righteousness with faith in G-d?

The Traveler

God has never promised that we could see Him or spiritual truths through natural eyes. We can learn natural truths through natural eyes, which I think is your question. We were talking about spiritual truths and now you have switched gears to talk about "truth of science". I realize that you see all truth as one thing but the scriptures separate truths and maybe that is where you are having a hang up on this topic.

D&C 67; " 10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind."

Part of the humility process spoken of in verse 10 is to realize that man cannot reach God through the natural mind. We cannot reach God through the Tower of Babel. That is the lesson of the Tower of Babel, man became too prideful in their own knowledge and decided not to depend on the Lord. The same mindset is occurring today.

[whirlieking]

In D&C 29 we are taught that all things are spiritual. And fitting with D&C 131 all things are spirit matter at some level.

As I understand truth from D&C 93, truth is an unchanging principle. Knowledge of things as they were, are and will be.

The quest of true religion is to find God, but in order to do that we must find truth. The quest of science is to find truth. There are two inherent flaws with science finding truth, and that is taught by Elder Scott. One is that you cannot really know for sure whether you have gotten to absolute truth. And it is possible to get the wrong answer even though we have done the absolute best that we can.

Even scientists are led and guided by the Spirit at times in their work, but again they can never identify something as absolute like we can through prayer and spiritual experiences.

As this relates to dark matter and energy, ultimately to know the truth we will need to be taught by the Spirit what it is. The speculation and idea that this dark matter and dark energy is a spiritual force is a possibility, and makes sense to how I see the world interact. Remember we could just as well call this orange energy or yellow matter or something else, but we call it dark, because we can't(as i know) directly measure it with any known senses, therefore remaining dark to us. So, why could it not be a spiritual force? If we can't measure this using our senses then that makes science useless as far as proving hypotheses wrong, until we do find a way to measure it. Then we must therefore use the other way to find truth and that is God. We can still use the scientific method to do our part just like when we pray about anything spiritual, but we just have to wait on God's timetable(of which I am of the personal opinion that we wont find it out in this life).

The same could be said about the Priesthood to a degree. Like dark matter, we see its effects, but that doesnt mean we know what it is other than God's power. But physically/spiritually what is it? Same with faith. This is why to me, I can potentially see that this other dark energy/matter is what God is using. But until I (really other scientists of whom I then read their work) study and test using the scientific method I will never know the truth. God is not merely going to reveal it to me(at least as I believe).

At the end of the day it's going to be a spiritual revelation, but doing the science is just doing our part to prepare to receive that knowledge. Quick story, this is how Elder Nelson recounts his receiving the revelation in the surgery room. He said if he did not study heart surgery and have experience, and also be worthy of the Spirit; then he would not have received that knowledge needed to save the patient's life.

From what I can tell, Traveler views science and truth similar to how I do(please correct me if Im wrong). So maybe this helps understand a bit of where we're coming from and why we think it's a possibility.

[Traveler]

God has never promised that we could see Him or spiritual truths through natural eyes. We can learn natural truths through natural eyes, which I think is your question. We were talking about spiritual truths and now you have switched gears to talk about "truth of science". I realize that you see all truth as one thing but the scriptures separate truths and maybe that is where you are having a hang up on this topic.

I believe revelation of the restoration teaches that all truth is inclusive in a unified whole. Listen carefully the next time you attend the temple. I believe all truth comes from G-d and as I understand the Holy Ghost testifies of truth - See Moroni 10:5 - note that by the power of the Holy Ghost one can know ALL truth - regardless if anyone divides up truth or not. So my question is that if a truth is given to man - from where does it come? And by what power is it given to man. Please show me where scriptures tell us that any truth comes from anywhere other than G-d. If all truth is of G-d why do you keep trying to divide it? What are you using to divide truth? By it source? By some other spirit? and one last question -- is all things - including truth - spiritual with G-d?

D&C 67; " 10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind."

Part of the humility process spoken of in verse 10 is to realize that man cannot reach God through the natural mind. We cannot reach God through the Tower of Babel. That is the lesson of the Tower of Babel, man became too prideful in their own knowledge and decided not to depend on the Lord. The same mindset is occurring today.

Why can't man see G-d in the flesh? Because there is no way to detect G-d or because the power of G-d is so great that man will parish from the experience? The problem is not that G-d is undetectable - the problem is that the natural man cannot "abide" or in other words survive such an experience. Thus the spirit changes man's natural eyes to preserve him from overload not something that otherwise would have no effect.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe revelation of the restoration teaches that all truth is inclusive in a unified whole. Listen carefully the next time you attend the temple. I believe all truth comes from G-d and as I understand the Holy Ghost testifies of truth - See Moroni 10:5 - note that by the power of the Holy Ghost one can know ALL truth - regardless if anyone divides up truth or not. So my question is that if a truth is given to man - from where does it come? And by what power is it given to man. Please show me where scriptures tell us that any truth comes from anywhere other than G-d. If all truth is of G-d why do you keep trying to divide it? What are you using to divide truth? By it source? By some other spirit? and one last question -- is all things - including truth - spiritual with G-d?

Why can't man see G-d in the flesh? Because there is no way to detect G-d or because the power of G-d is so great that man will parish from the experience? The problem is not that G-d is undetectable - the problem is that the natural man cannot "abide" or in other words survive such an experience. Thus the spirit changes man's natural eyes to preserve him from overload not something that otherwise would have no effect.

The Traveler

We are talking about two different things. I am not talking about truth of itself, I was talking about the method in which it is obtained. The difference being "truths" obtained in other ways outside of spiritual confirmation through the Holy Ghost have a potential to become distorted and false or they become falsely applied or interpreted. The scriptures are a good example of this. You and I will both agree that the scriptures contain many wonderful truths but how one receives them will alter their significance. Isaiah stated that in the later days good will be called bad and bad called good (paraphrasing), this is the manipulation of truth. How is that? That happens because it is not received in the right way.

I know we have talked about this before but for all those who have not been part of the discussion; the human brain misinterprets information, it is what, in part, makes us human. The brain makes up information, the blind spot is a good example. The brain does not see the blind spot and yet our mind cannot perceive the area that is not receiving information without doing certain things to bring that out. How is there not a hole in our visual field corresponding with the blind spot? Because our brain has the ability to fill in the hole with signals that are spontaneously generated, they are made up, they are not real!

Jesus tried to explain this to Nicodemus. John 3:" 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

This is Jesus' words; there are things born of flesh but they are flesh. Meaning, they are natural things and things other than spiritually born. We cannot see God unless we become born again and see things through spiritual eyes. Nicodemus had a hard time understanding this because he was seeing things through natural eyes.

Then Jesus explains that there is another way to receive truths; " 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

Jesus separates "earthly things" from "heavenly things" and the different ways in which they are received.

President Marion G. Romney explains; "Nicodemus, however, not having yet been born of the Spirit, lacked the perception that comes from the Spirit. He simply could not understand that Jesus was saying there are two sources of knowledge, two different processes of learning—one through the normal senses of the flesh, the other through the voice of the Spirit."

In case you try to pin this idea on me again, let me emphasize the fact that this is coming from a modern day Apostle, Marion G. Romney; "there are two sources of knowledge, two different processes of learning—one through the normal senses of the flesh, the other through the voice of the Spirit." And that is his interpretation of the words of Christ.

Sorry - can't give you any stronger argument than that.

Paul also taught this concept (again, I did not originate this idea); From Marion G. Romney's talk "Receiving and applying spiritual truth"; " To the Corinthians, Paul said: “My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit …

“That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. …

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [That is to say, the things of the Spirit, the verities of eternity, the meaning of great events and signs, and the ultimate truths are not to be had alone through the learning process of men.]

“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. …

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”"

Are there truths that are spiritual discerned that cannot be discerned in other ways? That is the question you should be asking. The answer has been given by Christ, Paul and Marion G. Romney and countless others.

[Traveler]

We strayed a bit from dark energy. I am not sure if on this forum it is understood what dark energy has to do with our universe. We all have heard that our universe is expanding. That is not hard to grasp because most of us conceptualize to some degree the Big Bang and everything being pushed out from that. For the most port we think of the universe expanding into some kind of empty void filling dimensional empty space. There is a little more to it than that. For a long time science believed that our universe was what was called a 4 dimensional sphere. This would mean that every point in the universe is both a center point and a boundary point. Mathematically this works out quite cleverly but conceptually – it is more difficult to wrap one’s brain around. In essence it is like a very small balloon that is being blown up to be very large – stretching out symmetrically in all directions.

The problem is that our expanding universe is not just matter being spread out. The very fabric of space time is enlarging. It was believed that space time was being stretched; pushed out from the force of the Big Bang. However, we have learned that is not the case. It appears that space time is not just being expanded – but that it is being created and the density of space time is remaining constant as more and more of “it” is being created. The problem is that we have defined nothing as empty space time. So in essence nothing is being created from nothing. But two things seem to be happening. One is that scientist are beginning to redefine the nothingness of empty space as something but whatever that something is it looks and acts (most of the time) a lot like what we have believed as nothing for a very long time. Secondly it is not just rolling on – the creation process is accelerating. This means that G-d is not just continuing to create – he is creating more in a shorter period of time. He is accelerating his work.

Creation could be as simple as the conversion of “unorganized” space time into organized space time (LDS doctrine in essence). But this is very problematic when considering the second law of terminal dynamics because physics dictates that things flow from organized to unorganized.

I started this thread hopping others would see that we are uncovering proof of creation. Not in some distant past but right now and we are not just watching it but are part of it and right in the middle of creation. If you believe G-d is the creator than you must understand that we are watching his power of creation enlarge the universe. But we are only seeing a very small drop in a very large bucket. And when we come to understand better what we are seeing – we may very likely see G-d in a whole new “light” in ways that no man has ever seen him before.

The Traveler