Lds And Pro-choice

[Guest Username-Removed]

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Does that mean I could stand in front of you and shot myself through the gut and the bullet hits you too and kills you? During sex certain parts of another person are inside a woman, should she be able to do anything she pleases since it is HER body? Even cut it off?

I think perhaps you should ask Lorena Bobbitt that question.

Seriously though, I'm speechless as to how to even respond to this....wow....whoa....ahh...duh...

Though i suppose, it was good laugh to start off my morning, that has to be one of the most absurd things I've seen posted on this board, since I've joined.

If I live in a house with another person but I own the house and decide one night I am just going to light it on fire. If that person dies, can I say "keep your laws off my house?" or "My house, my way?"

umm...no...again another nonsensical argument. If someone else dies as a result of your actions, then your not just harming yourself, regardless of who owns a piece of property. That much should be pretty self explanatory.

Killing another person is not about your body.

I guess we can just leave this as a difference of opinion. When something is inside a person's body (by inside I mean literally inside, not inside you like your creepy sexual reference above), it is their body, not yours, not Pat Roberts, nor Rick Santorum's. So the choice should be theirs.

What really gets me about the whole abortion debate is, its a womans issue, and so many men want to try and tell a woman how she should deal with her pregnancy. When a man will never know what that is like, or what pains, in some circumstances, that your going to try to force a woman through because of a belief that you feel compelled to project on to others.

There is no debate, it is murder. People are just trying to justify it any way they can. You keep saying it is about a woman and her body when clearly it is not. It is about a woman wanting to cause harm or murder another person! People say, well the baby can not make it on its own without the mom. Well can a newborn? If that mom dumps the baby in the trash then is that murder? How about a disabled person who can not fend for themselves. Would that be murder?

I want to drink and I want to drive. Its my body and my car, so I can do as I please right? Even if there is a chance I can hurt others?

Well with Abortion there is a 100% chance you will not only harm but MURDER another human being. It is not about a womans body, it is about a CHILDS body. The womans right to "choose" ends after she chose to have sex. When she made THAT choice with her body, then the life that follows is NOT her choice.

As I said before Abortion IS murder and no amount of debate or discussion can change the truth regardless of how inconvenient it might be to some people.

JC,

Show me the church doctrine that has declared that its murder. If you can't then so be it.

[Guest Yediyd]

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Does that mean I could stand in front of you and shot myself through the gut and the bullet hits you too and kills you? During sex certain parts of another person are inside a woman, should she be able to do anything she pleases since it is HER body? Even cut it off?

I think perhaps you should ask Lorena Bobbitt that question.

Seriously though, I'm speechless as to how to even respond to this....wow....whoa....ahh...duh...

Though i suppose, it was good laugh to start off my morning, that has to be one of the most absurd things I've seen posted on this board, since I've joined.

If I live in a house with another person but I own the house and decide one night I am just going to light it on fire. If that person dies, can I say "keep your laws off my house?" or "My house, my way?"

umm...no...again another nonsensical argument. If someone else dies as a result of your actions, then your not just harming yourself, regardless of who owns a piece of property. That much should be pretty self explanatory.

Killing another person is not about your body.

I guess we can just leave this as a difference of opinion. When something is inside a person's body (by inside I mean literally inside, not inside you like your creepy sexual reference above), it is their body, not yours, not Pat Roberts, nor Rick Santorum's. So the choice should be theirs.

What really gets me about the whole abortion debate is, its a womans issue, and so many men want to try and tell a woman how she should deal with her pregnancy. When a man will never know what that is like, or what pains, in some circumstances, that your going to try to force a woman through because of a belief that you feel compelled to project on to others.

There is no debate, it is murder. People are just trying to justify it any way they can. You keep saying it is about a woman and her body when clearly it is not. It is about a woman wanting to cause harm or murder another person! People say, well the baby can not make it on its own without the mom. Well can a newborn? If that mom dumps the baby in the trash then is that murder? How about a disabled person who can not fend for themselves. Would that be murder?

I want to drink and I want to drive. Its my body and my car, so I can do as I please right? Even if there is a chance I can hurt others?

Well with Abortion there is a 100% chance you will not only harm but MURDER another human being. It is not about a womans body, it is about a CHILDS body. The womans right to "choose" ends after she chose to have sex. When she made THAT choice with her body, then the life that follows is NOT her choice.

As I said before Abortion IS murder and no amount of debate or discussion can change the truth regardless of how inconvenient it might be to some people.

agreed, but the bigger sin is neglecting and abusing the unwanted child after it is born. Personally, I wish I had had a choice.

and yes... I probably DID make that choice pre-mortally...but my mortal mind can't comprehend that. I believe that the poem I wrote about the Mortal Test was inspired...It was written just 3 months after my Baptism. It DOES give me comfort...but I can't get the thought out of my head that I would have been safer and happier back in the arms of the Lord, not left in a corner with an unchanged diaper and a sour milk bottle propped up to me. THAT was the reality of my life.

[a-train]

We need to extricate our view of the law of the land from our view of the law of the LORD. This country is not a theocracy. Abortion for the purpose of convenience is clearly an abomination before the LORD, however we must understand that our laws in this country are not and should not be designed to implement any single understanding of God's will. It is the will of the people that dictates the laws in this country. The laws are designed to protect the people, not the LORD's will.

Having said that, when discussing the Abortion issue, we should always remember our 'religious' paradigms, but we should speak in terms of the people, their rights, their needs, etc..

Alcohol use is forbidden to the LDS, but not the unbelievers. Would we support another Prohibition if the people of this country did? Yes, but we should not think to force it upon them. Abortion is the same. We cannot expect to force a ban upon this nation for moral purposes.

With that, I still would say that I am 'Pro-Life' because of the business of abortion. Clinics stand a lot to gain with each abortion performed and many young girls feel later that they wish they had counselled with someone with less an invested interest in their abortion. I would further say that the issue should be left to the states and that the constitutionality of any state ban should be upheld, I do not buy into the individual rights argument to support the industry of abortion.

Perhaps if we could take the profitability out of it, we would have a great deal less issue.

-a-train

[sixpacktr]

I find it hard to believe that someone can be LDS and pro-abortion.

The church doesn't plainly teach it's wrong though. It teaches that in some cases it's acceptable, which moves it from plainly wrong to a matter between the person and the lord, which is where i think it should always stay. Unless you go through it or truly know the pain of the choice, i think we need to keep our mouths shut and let the lord lead.

And for the record, like the church, i'm pro-choice for limited abortions, but also pro-life cause i feel the loss of each new life that was denied the chance to live live all the way through. It's funny that we call it murder, when, in some cases, most members here would more than willingly take another life to protect them or the ones they love from harm. We tend to look at the act and not the reasoning, but when it's us, we'll makes an excuse like "self defense" or " i was protecting.." Leave the choice legal, leave it between them and the lord. Trust in the free agency the lord gave us, i still think it was the greatest gift we have.

Soul,

Yes, the church does teach that it is wrong except in the cases I outlined about 5 messages or so before. IF it is in those instances, and IF you have counselled with the Lord and with your Bishop and IF the Lord says it is okay, then you have nothing to worry about. As always, IF you have counselled with the Lord and gotten his blessing on it, then who the heck cares what anyone else says?

As for free agency, it is a wonderful gift, but agency has a very very dark side. That is: we have to pay the consequences for our actions. To me, that is one big reason so many of our Father's children chose Satan. They didn't want the obligation of having to face the consequences of agency. The same goes for abortion. If you have an abortion because "it is my body, and you can't tell me what to do with it" they are completely correct. They still have agency. But there are consequences, which has been lost on the world at large, and somewhat in the church as well. If you do something, something will follow. It may be good or bad, but it will follow. Abortions for convenience are wrong. In no way whatsoever has the Church waffled on that, or left it up to the individual member to make their own decision. If they have a convenience abortion, they will face church discipline. They exercised agency, now they reap the reward for their actions.

Abortions should be outlawed in all instances except as noted by the church. These abortion mills like Planned Parenthood, etc., should be shut down and the doors locked. I would wager that most people that need an abortion for the accepted reasons sulk around those places anyway. They are more than likely at a hospital or other reputable medical establishment because it is serious.

[FrankJL]

I don't think some of you understand the difference between personal views, and legislating those views.

Then again I think some of you do, and are just to quick to judge others with your own beliefs.

I'm done with this though, its a hopeless subject with some. You don't care about what you force on other people, you just need to feel your doing something good.

[pushka]

I don't think anybody except the most heartless and thoughtless people in the world would choose to have an abortion just for the convenience of it..as birth control, however I have known people who have used it in that way, and I certainly don't condone it.

I like the responses of Soul and Wordflood on this debate, and some other posters' comments too.

I do think pro-choice is correct, however I do feel that the woman ought to consider exactly why she is choosing to abort. Society also has to recognise that not all pregnancies that are not planned are irresponsible, some people have used contraception and it has failed. They may have medical and psychological (mental health) reasons which would make having that baby at that particular time in their lives unwise...they have tried to prevent a pregnancy occurring, but their contraception has failed for whatever reason. Not all of those women are having sex out of marriage in those circumstances either.

I do feel that anybody making money out of abortions without offering counselling to the woman before making her decision is out of order. Women should always receive adequate counselling during her decision making.

Just a few of my thoughts on the matter.

[Guest Yediyd]

I don't think some of you understand the difference between personal views, and legislating those views.

Then again I think some of you do, and are just to quick to judge others with your own beliefs.

I'm done with this though, its a hopeless subject with some. You don't care about what you force on other people, you just need to feel your doing something good.

I have to admitt that I agree with you...I have been on the fence about this issue for a long time....but if pushed into it...I truly believe that it is a decision between God and the people involved...and we should not judge, and the government needs to back out.....So, yes...I guess you CAN be LDS and pro-choice.

[JcDean78]

If our laws say Murder is wrong then so is abortion. If you can murder people then you can have abortions. Its not about a a particular religion but about the laws of this Rebpulic and murder is against the law!

The Church has taken a light stance on it in certain situations but then Church also takes similar stances on killing other humans. If my life is in danager and I kill a man who breaks into my house and threatens my family, then is that murder? No. If I have to go to war and bear arms against others and end the lives of some of them, is that murder? No, clearly not as shown in the scriptures. So when the Church talks about special situations for Abortion, I see it as no different than special situations for killing another person.

However if I tonight decide that I am going to open fire on some random people and kill them... it is murder just as if I were to have an abortion and murder my child.

I honeslty do not think you can be pro-abortion and LDS as it goes against everything we value as well as against the laws of the land which makes murder illegal (Abrotion was ONLY allowed because activist judges invented it, there is no legal right in this country to murder your child).

[Guest Yediyd]

I honeslty do not think you can be pro-abortion and LDS as it goes against everything we value as well as against the laws of the land which makes murder illegal (Abrotion was ONLY allowed because activist judges invented it, there is no legal right in this country to murder your child).

So, what are you saying? Either I'm not a Mormon or I am a liar...which is it?

[sixpacktr]

The gospel is not some "big tent" which is so fashionable among political pundits, that we can fit anyone in, there is room for everyone.

The gospel is for everyone that will accept it and live it. There are certain commandments we need to keep. There are others that we need to avoid so that we avoid the appearance of evil. The day is fast approaching where we will have to stand up and be counted. The gray will have disappeared, and it will be btw black and white.

I don't think anyone would call you a liar or not a Mormon, but in the same vein, I have a hard time understanding how someone can hold to the sanctity of life, believe what we believe with the plan of salvation, etc, and then say that they are pro-abortion. To me it is a contradiction.

And FrankJL, I too lean more towards the libertarians than the repubs anymore. Voted such in the last election in Georgia. However, I don't agree with their stance on drug use or abortion. I think that moral issues are different, and both of these are moral issues.

[Gabelma]

I honeslty do not think you can be pro-abortion and LDS as it goes against everything we value as well as against the laws of the land which makes murder illegal (Abrotion was ONLY allowed because activist judges invented it, there is no legal right in this country to murder your child).

So, what are you saying? Either I'm not a Mormon or I am a liar...which is it?

I think there is a huge difference between never going to have an abortion yourself but recognising the harm abortion being illegal did to women who tried all sorts of illegal methods to get rid of a child.

Charley

[Guest Username-Removed]

If our laws say Murder is wrong then so is abortion. If you can murder people then you can have abortions. Its not about a a particular religion but about the laws of this Rebpulic and murder is against the law!

That right there will get you into all kinds of trouble .. in my opinion! Regardless Its time for a big group hug!!! Come on everyone, you know you want to hug everyone!!!

[Guest Yediyd]

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If our laws say Murder is wrong then so is abortion. If you can murder people then you can have abortions. Its not about a a particular religion but about the laws of this Rebpulic and murder is against the law!

That right there will get you into all kinds of trouble .. in my opinion! Regardless Its time for a big group hug!!! Come on everyone, you know you want to hug everyone!!!

Yeah, can I get in on that?

[CrimsonKairos]

Someone asked for the Church's view on abortion. Here's two quotes by two prophets which are pretty clear:

Abortion is a growing evil that we speak against. Certainly the terrible sin of premeditated abortion would be hard to justify. It is almost inconceivable that an abortion would ever be committed to save face or embarrassment, to save trouble or inconvenience, or to escape responsibility. How could one submit to such an operation or be party in any way by financing or encouraging? If special rare cases could be justified, certainly they would be rare indeed. We place it high on the list of sins against which we strongly warn the people.

Abortion must be considered one of the most revolting and sinful practices in this day, when we are witnessing the frightful evidence of permissiveness leading to sexual immorality. (Spencer W. Kimball, Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1973, p.1)

And another:

Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret. While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

But such circumstances are rare, and there is only a negligible probability of their occurring. In these circumstances, those who face the question are asked to consult with their local ecclesiastical leaders and to pray in great earnestness, receiving a confirmation through prayer before proceeding.

You who are wives and mothers are the anchors of the family. You bear the children. What an enormous and sacred responsibility that is. I am told that between 1972 and 1990 there were 27 million abortions in the U.S. alone. What is happening to our appreciation of the sanctity of human life? Abortion is an evil, stark and real and repugnant, which is sweeping over the earth. (Gordon B. Hinckley, "Walking in the Light of the Lord," Ensign, Nov. 1998, 99).

As someone pointed out, it's between the person/couple and the Lord. Unless someone comes out and says, "I had an abortion for convenience's sake," then we cannot assume we know the Lord is displeased with them. It's pretty clear: Abortion is an evil act except in rare cases. But the Church hasn't pushed for anti-abortion legislation that I know of. If they did, I'd be fine with it, but it's really a personal choice that should involve the Lord.

Now Romney's old view was that he was pro-life, but didn't think the federal government should tell every state that abortion was illegal. He thought the states should decide (a true federalist ). Now that he's changed his mind (which was in 2004-2005 by the way...hardly a conversion on the eve of his campaign ), suddenly he's a liar? I wonder what people who worry about his flip-flopping would say to converts to the LDS Church? "Oh, you're such a flip-flopper...you used to be non-LDS and you joined just to <insert reason here>."

Anyway, Romney is pro-life personally and publicly now. I don't doubt his sincerity. I think it's great that he's come around in terms of his view of government. Roe v. Wade should be overturned, and the states should each decide what they will do in regards to the legality of abortion. This is a democratic republic. The people through their elected representatives decide what is law and what is not.

[Annabelli]

The values of the LDS Church are very firm about Conscious Choices and Privacy.

An Anonymous Poem:

There's someone in the mirror looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone that you could love if you wanted to. Someone that no one else loves. Someone that you can have and to hold all the days of your life.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who doesn't have much. Someone who needs to be loved and cared about. Someone who needs a friend to hold hands with everyday.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who is alone and afraid. Someone who has traveled a long road. Someone who needs to be invited to share a smile. Someone who needs a place to call home.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who is hopeless and helpless. Someone who isn't going to finish the race. Someone who needs a tug and a shoulder to lean on. Someone who walks a mile.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone needs your love. Someone has tears in their eyes. Someone needs to share your day. Someone who has never done wrong has no place to turn.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone is kind and thoughtful. Someone is someplace no body is looking. Someone is looking in the mirror at you.

[sixpacktr]

The values of the LDS Church are very firm about Conscious Choices and Privacy.

An Anonymous Poem:

There's someone in the mirror looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone that you could love if you wanted to. Someone that no one else loves. Someone that you can have and to hold all the days of your life.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who doesn't have much. Someone who needs to be loved and cared about. Someone who needs a friend to hold hands with everyday.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who is alone and afraid. Someone who has traveled a long road. Someone who needs to be invited to share a smile. Someone who needs a place to call home.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who is hopeless and helpless. Someone who isn't going to finish the race. Someone who needs a tug and a shoulder to lean on. Someone who walks a mile.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone needs your love. Someone has tears in their eyes. Someone needs to share your day. Someone who has never done wrong has no place to turn.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone is kind and thoughtful. Someone is someplace no body is looking. Someone is looking in the mirror at you.

Huh?

[JcDean78]

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The values of the LDS Church are very firm about Conscious Choices and Privacy.

An Anonymous Poem:

There's someone in the mirror looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone that you could love if you wanted to. Someone that no one else loves. Someone that you can have and to hold all the days of your life.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who doesn't have much. Someone who needs to be loved and cared about. Someone who needs a friend to hold hands with everyday.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who is alone and afraid. Someone who has traveled a long road. Someone who needs to be invited to share a smile. Someone who needs a place to call home.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone who is hopeless and helpless. Someone who isn't going to finish the race. Someone who needs a tug and a shoulder to lean on. Someone who walks a mile.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone needs your love. Someone has tears in their eyes. Someone needs to share your day. Someone who has never done wrong has no place to turn.

Someone in the mirror is looking at you. Someone is saying goodbye. Someone is kind and thoughtful. Someone is someplace no body is looking. Someone is looking in the mirror at you.

Huh?

Yea, whats that about? CK posted some great refs! I am shocked that so many people are being mislead on Abortion and fail to see it as murder. The prophets have spoken, and as they say when the prophet speaks... the debate is over. But honeslty will any debate change reality? Can it change the truth? No. 27million abortions is hardly a "rare" occurance.

[the_jason]

The church doesn't plainly teach it's wrong though. It teaches that in some cases it's acceptable

Sort of

"If a child is conceived by those who break the law of chastity, they may be tempted to commit another abominable sin: abortion. There is seldom any excuse for abortion. 'The only exceptions are when—

'1. Pregnancy has resulted from incest or rape;

'2. The life or health of the woman is in jeopardy in the opinion of competent medical authority; or

'3. The fetus is known, by competent medical authority, to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

'Even in these cases the couple should consider an abortion only after consulting with each other and their bishop [or branch president] and receiving divine confirmation through prayer' (General Handbook of Instructions [30943], p. 11-4)." -- Gospel Principles manual

Pay particular attention to that last paragraph. A person may be forgiven for an abortion in these few cases, but the decision should never come without much prayer, meditation, and counseling with preisthood leaders.

[Guest mamacat]

i would not abort a child for any reason. but my beliefs have not always been thus. i also think that the values and lifestyle that our society and culture promote are the cause of such little regard for the lives of our children. blaming the clinics and doctors barely scratches the surface of the situation as it is.

and i agree with CK ~ Now he realizes that abortion has opened the floodgates to embryo farming and other practices that devalue human life and create life for the sake of destroying it and taking a few cells in the process.

that's it, absolutely.

as for the masculinist in this group...your penetrating insight is phenomenal. i hope that the brothers in your drum circle give you extra recogntion for your support of the brotherhood.

[FrankJL]

as for the masculinist in this group...your penetrating insight is phenomenal. i hope that the brothers in your drum circle give you extra recogntion for your support of the brotherhood. wink.gif

huh?...who are you talking about?

I know I said I wasn't going to post on this again, but this made me curious..

I'm sorry if I'm missing the obvious...my mind is fried at the moment.

Just finished my paper on higher-order autoregressive processes in the Augmented Dickey-Fuller test...say that ten times fast..

I love economics, but hate econometrics....its 85% advanced statistics and calculus, and only 15% economics.

[Guest mamacat]

What I want to know is why is it illegal for me to get LSD from a medical professional so I can kick it straight psychadelic because of this nasty rumor that it might kill some brain cells, but the ladies can get whole fetuses scraped out of their uteruses and thrown in the garbage all they want? This is sexist and I demand equal rights!

-The Masculinist

(Listening to Jimmy Hendrix in the background)

I don't give any substance to the argument that if abortion were illegal, dangerous underground procedures would threaten the lives of the daughters of this country. We don't get these kids good clean exstacy? How about some professionally manufactured cocaine? I DON'T WANT MY DAUGHTER TO SMOKE WEED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN TREATED WITH HARMFUL PESTICIDES!!!!

We don't use this logic to legalize drugs (well, OK, some do). Why does it suddenly gain acceptance on this issue? Of course nasty underground 'doctors' would do damage (still probably do), but is that why we want it legal?

Are we going to legalize murder so long as it is done by capable hit men? Don't we want to put a stop to the troublesome, violent, and underground manner in which murder is committed? Why don't we legalize it? I could go in and fill out paperwork and have a professional hit-man so reckognized by the state to wack my my kid, because I can't afford him anymore. This would be much better than the nasty .45 to the back of the head in the woods.

-a-train

the perspective that a-train shares here is one-of-a-kind.....i love how he laces it with humor and irony. a man of much mirth and introspection.

[FrankJL]

more specious argument...I understand now.

[Guest mamacat]

oh oh the libertarian.....:)

do you not claim to be a masculinist then? how will you ever advance the national agenda of the fraternal brotherhood???

(i can't say that 10 times fast, but i can say econometrics, though it does sound incredibly complicated....didn't even know that was a word. kudos on your accomplishment.)

[FrankJL]

oh..no I knew you didn't mean me.

Being a libertarian is great....Liberals call you conservative because your stand for smaller government, less taxes, and less corporate governance. Conservatives call you a liberal because of our views on abortion, gay marriage, and other social issues. And then even the real "libertarians" attack me because I support the death penalty, and the war in Iraq. Its a no win situation, for those that see the prism of politics as only two sided..

Which is kind odd when you consider a prism is a three dimensional object.

[CrimsonKairos]

Unless you're holding a transparent drawing of a prism on paper. B)

Yeah, I know, I just wanted to be stupid.