Brigham Young..a Murderer? Huh?

[Guest Yediyd]

Will somebody please explain to me what this crap about some valley massacre is all about? My girlfriend is not a Mormon and she keeps telling me that Brigham Young was a murderer...some pioneer mass murder thing...I have NO IDEA what she is talking about and she SWARES it is documented. I've heard NOTHING about this in the three years that I have been a Mormon. Where do these accusations come from? And what is the TRUE story?

[pushka]

This is the link to the Mormon Wiki page about the event...I can't recommend any particular sites on which to find information, but this is at least a starting point, and it is from the LDS perspective.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre:

http://www.mormonwiki.com/mormonism/Mounta...eadows_massacre

[StosRob]

Go to www.lds.org and in the search box type "Mountain Meadows Massacre" and it will bring up several articles about this.

[Guest Yediyd]

This is the link to the Mormon Wiki page about the event...I can't recommend any particular sites on which to find information, but this is at least a starting point, and it is from the LDS perspective.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre:

http://www.mormonwiki.com/mormonism/Mounta...eadows_massacre

THANK YOU!!!!!, Pushka.

Go to www.lds.org and in the search box type "Mountain Meadows Massacre" and it will bring up several articles about this.

Thanks Stos...I didn't even know the name of the valley till you and Pushka responded to me...now I have some amunition for the next time my friend brings this up...Thanks again.

[LukeAir2006]

[BenRaines]

There is a lot more to the story than Brigham Young sent John Lee to murder poor little settlers in their wagon train. I will leave it to you to do the research and they are right in if you search Meadow Mountain massacre you will find lots of information slanted one way or the other. The man who led the group was tried and executed.

And if we want to get defensive then lets talk about the Inquisition, massacres of tens if not hundreds of thousands or more in the crusades, etc, etc. Even the murders of Tindale and other reformers in the name of religion. Oh please.

Ben Raines

[sixpacktr]

BY had nothing to do with Mountain Meadows.

But sitting back here now, armchair quarterbacking the actions of these people, is fruitless. Did they murder these people? Yes, they did. They will pay for their actions. But people need to remember that the Mormons had been hunted down and killed, they only religious group to actually have an extermination order issued against them by a state gov't, and when this happened the federal gov't had either just sent in troops or was going to. The Mormons were a hunted people, and then comes in a group of people from Arkansas, where Parley P Pratt had just been murdered. If I remember right, there has also been some Missouri Wildcatters that had travelled with the Fancher party for a short while that were causing some problems and bragging about killing Parley P (again, going from memory, so it may be a tad shaky). And it is the old West, where you took care of your own problems. The US had not yet been "Oprafied".

Put yourself in these people's shoes. They are scared, they aren't being left alone, and here comes a bunch of people in making threats. Does it negate what they did? No. We are to be better than that. But it does help me understand what is going thru their minds. They lashed out, committed cold blooded murder, and will pay for it.

Buy BY didn't have anything to do with issuing the order to kill these people.

[Dale]

I don't believe BY was an accesory before or after the fact in murder. FairWiki through FAIR's links has an article on MM. http://www.fairlds.org FARMs Review which is online to read has treated the issue in depth. (Volume 15. Number 2 2003) FAIR had someone do a talk on it and they might have a printable transcript of the talk online. I can't recall the person that gave the talk though.

[a-train]

I bet the September Dawn movie is a flop. Straight to DVD.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

One can only hope.

Seriously, I don't know which target audience the producers think are going to pay to attend a history lecture mingled with fiction.

[a-train]

Well, they get that all the time, I'm just not sure who wants to see a 'Mormon' movie besides the Mormons, but this one THEY won't even watch. Most of my non-LDS friends have expressed no desire at all to see it. A tear-jerking tragic love story in Pioneer Utah interrupted by murder? It's not even a chick-flick.

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

Thanks everybody!! I've learned alot from starting this thread....Now I'm armed with information! Thank you so much!!!

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

This is the link to the Mormon Wiki page about the event...I can't recommend any particular sites on which to find information, but this is at least a starting point, and it is from the LDS perspective.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre:

http://www.mormonwiki.com/mormonism/Mounta...eadows_massacre

The Mountain Meadows Massacre is an incredibly complex and devastating chapter in Mormon history. Unforttunately, this Wikipedia article propagates some of the most heineous myths about the victims of the massacre. It states:

--------------------------------------------

"There were no reports of problems related to the Baker-Fancher party until they reached Fillmore (about 150 miles south of Salt Lake City). Commencing at this point and through settlements to the south, there were complaints that the emigrants boasted of participating the violence against Mormons in both Missouri and Illinois, that they poisoned a spring, and that they threatened to destroy one of the Mormon settlements.

"It was also common knowledge that the train originated in Arkansas, where earlier in the year beloved apostle Parley P. Pratt had been murdered near the town of Van Buren. Rumor had it that some of the members of the train were among those who had participated in Pratt's murder, or that they bragged about his killing. There are also reports that some of the emigrants told a few Latter-day Saints that when they had transported their families to California they were going to return, join the army, and help subdue the Mormons."

--------------------------------

While it is true the Baker-Fancher party was from Arkansas, that is the extent of its link to Parley P. Pratt, who had recently been murdered in Arkansas. The party knew nothing about Pratt and made no claims about participating in his murder.

Another eggregious example is the myth of the poisoned spring. It was simply impossible for the spring in question to be poisoned, but this wasn't known at the time. So it was used as an easy excuse to justify the horrific killings.

The reasons the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred, in which approximately 120 men, women and children were murdered in cold-blood, are complex and not easily determined. Please don't rely on simplistic Wikipedias to explain it.

The best books to read are:

The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Juanita Brooks

Blood of the Prophets by Will Bagley

Luckily, a new book is coming by three scholars who had complete access to church documents, and so it we should have new information. This book has been at least five or six years in the making, and I am very excited to see what it says.

Emma

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

. . . poor little settlers. . . .

William Allen Aden, 19; George W. Baker, 27; Manerva A. Beller Baker, 25; Mary Levina, 7; Melissa Ann Beller, 14; David W. Beller, 12; John T. Baker, 52; Abel, 19; John Beach, 21; William Cameron, 51; Martha Cameron, 51; Tillman, 24; Isom, 18; Henry, 16; James 14,; Martha, 11, Larkin, 8; William Cameron'sniece; Nancy, 12; Allan P. Deshazo; 20; Jesse Dunlap, Jr., 39 John H. 13; Ellender, 18; Nancy M. 18; Nancy M. 16; James D. 14; Lucinda, 12; Susannah, 12; Margarette, 11; Mary Ann, 9; Lorenzo Dow Dunlap, 42; Nancy Dunlap, 39; Thomas J. 17; John H. 16; Mary Ann, 13; Talitha Emmeline, 11; Nancy, 9: American Jane, 7; William Eaton;, Silas Edwards; Alexander Fancer, 45; Eliza Ingrum Fancher, 32; Hampton, 19; William, 17; Mary, 15; Thomas, 14; Martha, 10; Sarah G. 8; Margara A, 8; James Matthew Famcher, 25; Frances "Fanny" Fulfer Fancher;Robert Fancher, 19; Saladia Ann Brown Huff; William; Eliza; Two other sons; John Milum Jones, 32; Eloah Angeline Tackitt Jones, 27; Daughter; Newton Jones; Lawson A. McEntire, 21; Josehi Miller, 30; Matilda Cameron Miller, 26; James William, 9; Charles R. Mitchell, 25; Sarah C. Baker Mitchell, 23, John, infant, Joel D. Mitchell, 23; John Prewitt, 20; Willim Prewitt, 18; Milium L. Ruish, 28: Charles Stallcup, 25; Cynthia Tackitt, 49, Marion, 20; Sebron, 18; Matilda, 16 James M, 14; Jones M, 12; Pleasant Tackitt, 25; Armilda Miller TAckitt, 22; Richard Wilson; Solomon R. Wood, 20; William Wood, 26;

The man who led the group was tried and executed.

Only John D. Lee was convicted and executed. He was certainly not the only leader.

And if we want to get defensive then lets talk about the Inquisition, massacres of tens if not hundreds of thousands or more in the crusades, etc, etc. Even the murders of Tindale and other reformers in the name of religion. Oh please.

None of which excuses the cold-blooded murder of approxiamately 120 men, women and children.

Emma

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

BY had nothing to do with Mountain Meeadows.

To say Brigham Young had nothing to do with MMM is incorrect. It's true no one can say he ordered the murders, but it's not impossible. There will always be arguments for and against, unless someone comes up with an actual document showing him giving the order, and I can't imagine that happening.

But people need to remember that the Mormons had been hunted down and killed, they only religious group to actually have an extermination order issued against them by a state gov't, and when this happened the federal gov't had either just sent in troops or was going to. The Mormons were a hunted people, and then comes in a group of people from Arkansas, where Parley P Pratt had just been murdered.

I agree with you. The climate in Utah was one of fear, and there is much evidence that BY took advantage of that. His goal was to show the federal government that it had no control of the territory; rather, he was the only authority, and he could prove it.

So he made agreements with the Native Americans that they could steal the cattle from wagon trains ih the territory when he said they could, thereby showing the government that only he could control them.

He often gave sermons full of blood atonement and vengeance for the murder of their beloved prophet Joseph.

He began a religious reformation which especially took hold in Southern Utah, where the Saints became exceptionally rigid and pious.

He also sent George Albert Smith down south, making incendiary speeches along the way about how the Saints were going to stand up and fight the U.S. Army, thereby creating more fear.

Finally, the southern Saints were in constant fear of the Army coming at them from California.

So, here you see a heightened state of fear, that Brigham Young did know about, and did perpetuate.

Bring all these things together and you start to see a perfect storm brewing, wherein a wagon train full of decent, innocent people is forced to circle and struggle for survival as what it believe are "Injuns" are shooting at them for four days. Unbeknownst to them, some of these snipers are white men too.

Then the Mormons decide they must not leave any survivors.

All of the men are shot in the head. The women and children, with the exception of 17 very young children, are bashed in the head until dead.

Afterward, BY is complicit in a thorough coverup of the massacre, and eventually, in an agreement with the federal government, gives up John D. Lee as the leader of the massacre.

If I remember right, there has also been some Missouri Wildcatters that had travelled with the Fancher party for a short while that were causing some problems and bragging about killing Parley P (again, going from memory, so it may be a tad shaky).

No, this is not true, though it was told as part of the justification for the massacre for years afterward.

Finally, I think one of the most interesting aspects of BY's actions happened on a May morning in 1861. A group of federal soldiers had put up a rock cairn with a wooden cross and its inscription, which read "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord."

Brigham Young read the verse aloud, altering the text to: "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord; I have repaid." Dudley Leavit said BY raised his right arm to the square and everyone knew that meant for them to destroy the cairn, which they did without saying a word.

I've always wondered what BY meant by ". . . I have repaid."

Emma

I don't believe BY was an accesory before or after the fact in murder. FairWiki through FAIR's links has an article on MM. http://www.fairlds.org FARMs Review which is online to read has treated the issue in depth. (Volume 15. Number 2 2003) FAIR had someone do a talk on it and they might have a printable transcript of the talk online. I can't recall the person that gave the talk though.

The person is Professor Gene Sessions. His talk is online at FAIR. He doesn't discuss BY's participation in the coverup after the massacre.

Every credible source admits Brigham participated in a coverup. Perhaps there is disagreement as to the degree, though I haven't seen it.

Juanita Brooks, who is still regarded as the primary source for information on the WWW is quite clear about Brigham's cover up.

There is a book coming out soon by Richard Turley, and two other believing members that should have information that we've never seen before as they have access to all church records previously unavailable.

Emma

I bet the September Dawn movie is a flop. Straight to DVD.

-a-train

I completely agree. I just can't see the attraction.

Emma

[vinny15]

Brigham Young didn't issue the order. UNless it was commanded of God.

True some people have yet to understand Brigham Young, but he was what was needed at the time. His "Blood filled sermons" were infact saying that they would pay, not that they would make them pay. There is a difference and I would like that to be made clear. Throughout the Bible we see prophets told to kill men and woman. Samson slew a thousand men with the jawbone of an ###### if Im not mistaken.

If you support these men as prphets you will try to understand that he wouldnt of ordered such a thing unless it was of God.

[Guest Yediyd]

Brigham Young didn't issue the order. UNless it was commanded of God.

True some people have yet to understand Brigham Young, but he was what was needed at the time. His "Blood filled sermons" were infact saying that they would pay, not that they would make them pay. There is a difference and I would like that to be made clear. Throughout the Bible we see prophets told to kill men and woman. Samson slew a thousand men with the jawbone of an ###### if Im not mistaken.

If you support these men as prphets you will try to understand that he wouldnt of ordered such a thing unless it was of God.

I DO believe that B.Y. was a prophet, and I don't believe that this senceless killing was of God. It was an awful thing committed by angry saints who had been pushed too far...they will suffer for their bad choice as David did. But as was already said...do we condemn the whole church or the Prophet for the indiscression of a few? I am appolled by what happened, but I can see why it did.

[sixpacktr]

Emma,

Thanks for the information. I know that this is complex, and one day we will know all about this when it is "shouted from the rooftops". But I stick with my thoughts on this. Having suffered some persecution myself, more on a job level than religious (although that too has happened), you get paranoid as all get out whenever you see a conversation going on behind closed doors. Probably has nothing to do with you, but you are convinced it does, and any little thing you hear just confirms what you already "know".

I see the same thing here. The people in the southern tier wanted to believe the worst because it had already happened to them. BY's talks of defiance and the like are understandable, given how the gov't had participated in the persecution. I see nothing wrong with his "reformation" that occurred. If you'll remember right, the excesses of Missouri and the expulsion were direct results of the Saints not doing as they had covenanted to do, and they therefore lost the protections of heaven. BY could see the same thing happening again soon after the Saints settled the Great Basin, and felt to head that off, IMHO.

As for "September Dawn", although we might feel it is a poke at Mitt now, it has been in the works for several years. My own opinion is that it is being done because the adversary desires it. To keep people away from that "crazy cult" that has committed mass murder...

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>. . . poor little settlers. . . .

William Allen Aden, 19; George W. Baker, 27; Manerva A. Beller Baker, 25; Mary Levina, 7; Melissa Ann Beller, 14; David W. Beller, 12; John T. Baker, 52; Abel, 19; John Beach, 21; William Cameron, 51; Martha Cameron, 51; Tillman, 24; Isom, 18; Henry, 16; James 14,; Martha, 11, Larkin, 8; William Cameron'sniece; Nancy, 12; Allan P. Deshazo; 20; Jesse Dunlap, Jr., 39 John H. 13; Ellender, 18; Nancy M. 18; Nancy M. 16; James D. 14; Lucinda, 12; Susannah, 12; Margarette, 11; Mary Ann, 9; Lorenzo Dow Dunlap, 42; Nancy Dunlap, 39; Thomas J. 17; John H. 16; Mary Ann, 13; Talitha Emmeline, 11; Nancy, 9: American Jane, 7; William Eaton;, Silas Edwards; Alexander Fancer, 45; Eliza Ingrum Fancher, 32; Hampton, 19; William, 17; Mary, 15; Thomas, 14; Martha, 10; Sarah G. 8; Margara A, 8; James Matthew Famcher, 25; Frances "Fanny" Fulfer Fancher;Robert Fancher, 19; Saladia Ann Brown Huff; William; Eliza; Two other sons; John Milum Jones, 32; Eloah Angeline Tackitt Jones, 27; Daughter; Newton Jones; Lawson A. McEntire, 21; Josehi Miller, 30; Matilda Cameron Miller, 26; James William, 9; Charles R. Mitchell, 25; Sarah C. Baker Mitchell, 23, John, infant, Joel D. Mitchell, 23; John Prewitt, 20; Willim Prewitt, 18; Milium L. Ruish, 28: Charles Stallcup, 25; Cynthia Tackitt, 49, Marion, 20; Sebron, 18; Matilda, 16 James M, 14; Jones M, 12; Pleasant Tackitt, 25; Armilda Miller TAckitt, 22; Richard Wilson; Solomon R. Wood, 20; William Wood, 26;

The man who led the group was tried and executed.

Only John D. Lee was convicted and executed. He was certainly not the only leader.

And if we want to get defensive then lets talk about the Inquisition, massacres of tens if not hundreds of thousands or more in the crusades, etc, etc. Even the murders of Tindale and other reformers in the name of religion. Oh please.

None of which excuses the cold-blooded murder of approxiamately 120 men, women and children.

Emma

You, of course are right...and God will judge them...I shall not.

Emma,

Thanks for the information. I know that this is complex, and one day we will know all about this when it is "shouted from the rooftops". But I stick with my thoughts on this. Having suffered some persecution myself, more on a job level than religious (although that too has happened), you get paranoid as all get out whenever you see a conversation going on behind closed doors. Probably has nothing to do with you, but you are convinced it does, and any little thing you hear just confirms what you already "know".

I see the same thing here. The people in the southern tier wanted to believe the worst because it had already happened to them. BY's talks of defiance and the like are understandable, given how the gov't had participated in the persecution. I see nothing wrong with his "reformation" that occurred. If you'll remember right, the excesses of Missouri and the expulsion were direct results of the Saints not doing as they had covenanted to do, and they therefore lost the protections of heaven. BY could see the same thing happening again soon after the Saints settled the Great Basin, and felt to head that off, IMHO.

As for "September Dawn", although we might feel it is a poke at Mitt now, it has been in the works for several years. My own opinion is that it is being done because the adversary desires it. To keep people away from that "crazy cult" that has committed mass murder...

Here, here

[a-train]

Can we blame Brigham, or any of the Saints for that matter, for going around preparing the people for an invasion of the U.S. Army? It DID happen, didn't it? He WAS right, wasn't he? We cannot assume Brigham's warning the people was a fear tactic. His concerns, and those of the people, were genuine and their cause for alarm did indeed materialize.

I think the lesson learned in this Chapter of LDS History (as well as others) is that we need to establish a buffer between Church leadership and government. In this case, a very political, and territorial mess came to be linked to Church Leadership which would not have been so entagled if Brigham Young was not Governor.

Now it is quite possible that the Church could not have so thrived without it's strong position in the formation and government of early Utah, but once well established it now has little need of such governmental involvement.

What I can gather based on what I've read is that the crew that did the killings only decided to do so after making major mistakes in handling the Fancher party, and did so to cover their mistakes, but their killings only served to magnify their disloyalty to God, the Church, and the people and brought about further public abuse.

What bothers me is the defensive nature that modern LDS have in them on the issue. It is akin to the guilt in white folks for the enslavery of blacks. While I acknowledge the sin of those people and the dreadful nature of their crime, I feel not one shred of guilt, nor am I defensive. I had no part in those murders, and even IF I was a decendant of those killers, I would have no guilt whatsoever. If those people were some no good murderin' thugs, so be it. I have no objection.

With the same token, the living relatives of those so brutality murdered who today take offense against the modern LDS people are just as those who hold in hostility the whites of this country who had no affiliation to slavery. My father was murdered. I have no ill-feelings toward the children or associates of his killer, the notion is absurd.

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

Can we blame Brigham, or any of the Saints for that matter, for going around preparing the people for an invasion of the U.S. Army? It DID happen, didn't it? He WAS right, wasn't he? We cannot assume Brigham's warning the people was a fear tactic. His concerns, and those of the people, were genuine and their cause for alarm did indeed materialize.

I think the lesson learned in this Chapter of LDS History (as well as others) is that we need to establish a buffer between Church leadership and government. In this case, a very political, and territorial mess came to be linked to Church Leadership which would not have been so entagled if Brigham Young was not Governor.

Now it is quite possible that the Church could not have so thrived without it's strong position in the formation and government of early Utah, but once well established it now has little need of such governmental involvement.

What I can gather based on what I've read is that the crew that did the killings only decided to do so after making major mistakes in handling the Fancher party, and did so to cover their mistakes, but their killings only served to magnify their disloyalty to God, the Church, and the people and brought about further public abuse.

What bothers me is the defensive nature that modern LDS have in them on the issue. It is akin to the guilt in white folks for the enslavery of blacks. While I acknowledge the sin of those people and the dreadful nature of their crime, I feel not one shred of guilt, nor am I defensive. I had no part in those murders, and even IF I was a decendant of those killers, I would have no guilt whatsoever. If those people were some no good murderin' thugs, so be it. I have no objection.

With the same token, the living relatives of those so brutality murdered who today take offense against the modern LDS people are just as those who hold in hostility the whites of this country who had no affiliation to slavery. My father was murdered. I have no ill-feelings toward the children or associates of his killer, the notion is absurd.

-a-train

Thank you, A-train, well said.

[Blessed]

I will post something and I do not mean it to be controversial, but it is what it is.

I have stated on here before that my great, great grandfather went West with Brigham Young and became one of the inner circle with BY. BY told me GGGF if he wanted a "second endowment" he had to take a second wife. John Hawley (my GGGF) prayed about it and to his own conviction felt tha tit was wrong and was not of the Lord. So, he resigned from the LDS. By the time he got back to his homestead it had been torched with a possey looking for him to hang him. He hid out for three weeks before he could get his wife and they snuck east with a posse following him for a month until they found some Jospehites.

This was all recorded in my GGGF journal which I have buried somewhere in my house.

Who ordered what happened to him? My GGGF writes it could only come from BY.

[Guest Yediyd]

I will post something and I do not mean it to be controversial, but it is what it is.

I have stated on here before that my great, great grandfather went West with Brigham Young and became one of the inner circle with BY. BY told me GGGF if he wanted a "second endowment" he had to take a second wife. John Hawley (my GGGF) prayed about it and to his own conviction felt tha tit was wrong and was not of the Lord. So, he resigned from the LDS. By the time he got back to his homestead it had been torched with a possey looking for him to hang him. He hid out for three weeks before he could get his wife and they snuck east with a posse following him for a month until they found some Jospehites.

This was all recorded in my GGGF journal which I have buried somewhere in my house.

Who ordered what happened to him? My GGGF writes it could only come from BY.

This of course is from HIS point of view. No matter howw flat you make a pancake...it has two sides.

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

Can we blame Brigham, or any of the Saints for that matter, for going around preparing the people for an invasion of the U.S. Army? It DID happen, didn't it? He WAS right, wasn't he? We cannot assume Brigham's warning the people was a fear tactic. His concerns, and those of the people, were genuine and their cause for alarm did indeed materialize.

I think the lesson learned in this Chapter of LDS History (as well as others) is that we need to establish a buffer between Church leadership and government. In this case, a very political, and territorial mess came to be linked to Church Leadership which would not have been so entagled if Brigham Young was not Governor.

Now it is quite possible that the Church could not have so thrived without it's strong position in the formation and government of early Utah, but once well established it now has little need of such governmental involvement.

What I can gather based on what I've read is that the crew that did the killings only decided to do so after making major mistakes in handling the Fancher party, and did so to cover their mistakes, but their killings only served to magnify their disloyalty to God, the Church, and the people and brought about further public abuse.

To all of you who have commented about the situation, I agree with you. In fact, I don't think I communicated my major point which was this: It was the persecutions of the past, combined with the fears of the present that created an insanity where 60 decent, God-loving men could perform this atrocity. It's not as if suddenly these men had nothing to do one day and decided to go sharp shooting. There were pressures from every side.

I'm not defending what they did. In fact, I believe their actions show they believed they were doing what they thought they were supposed to do. The siege had already started before they sent a rider to BY to ask him what to do.

However, that does not mean BY told them to murder anyone. It's just not that clearl cut.

There are many different ways to interpret all of this and I can't write a book here. I'm just trying to demonstrate that as soon as you think you know the answer to a part of the story, it's not quite right, and there's more to it!

What bothers me is the defensive nature that modern LDS have in them on the issue. It is akin to the guilt in white folks for the enslavery of blacks. While I acknowledge the sin of those people and the dreadful nature of their crime, I feel not one shred of guilt, nor am I defensive. I had no part in those murders, and even IF I was a decendant of those killers, I would have no guilt whatsoever. If those people were some no good murderin' thugs, so be it. I have no objection.

With the same token, the living relatives of those so brutality murdered who today take offense against the modern LDS people are just as those who hold in hostility the whites of this country who had no affiliation to slavery. My father was murdered. I have no ill-feelings toward the children or associates of his killer, the notion is absurd.

Part of the reason the descendants of the Baker/Fancher party were so angry is that the church denied any participation in the massacre for so long. Also, the wagon train carried a lot of wealth in it that was gone. More important of course, their relatives were gone.

Since then then the church has built a memorial at the site, and President Hinckley has spoken at two memorials. There are still some relatives who want an apology from the church; others are fine with the memorial.

Emma

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

<div class='quotemain'>

I will post something and I do not mean it to be controversial, but it is what it is.

I have stated on here before that my great, great grandfather went West with Brigham Young and became one of the inner circle with BY. BY told me GGGF if he wanted a "second endowment" he had to take a second wife. John Hawley (my GGGF) prayed about it and to his own conviction felt tha tit was wrong and was not of the Lord. So, he resigned from the LDS. By the time he got back to his homestead it had been torched with a possey looking for him to hang him. He hid out for three weeks before he could get his wife and they snuck east with a posse following him for a month until they found some Jospehites.

This was all recorded in my GGGF journal which I have buried somewhere in my house.

Who ordered what happened to him? My GGGF writes it could only come from BY.

This of course is from HIS point of view. No matter howw flat you make a pancake...it has two sides.

Of course it's from HIS view. HE was there! HIS homestead was torched! HE was about to be hanged!

This is a first-person source! They don't get any better than this for historical purposes, and you might as well stick a red herring in that pancake.

Blessed, what year did this happen to your GGGF?

There were a few violent incidents like your GGGFs in Utah, but they all occurred in 1857.

Also, has his journal been transcribed? Why is it buried?

Emma