Sin

[Traveler]

This, I think, is a great question. 

 

I think we may not really know the answer to that until judgement day.  We certainly don't have the ability to judge any one person about those issues without knowing the intent of the heart. 

 

There are many ways to sin, there are so many that King Benjamin coudn't even number them; Mosiah 4 " 29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

 30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not."

 

I think God will judge the act based in the effort given, as King Benjamin explains in verse 30.  As one of my young women said in Sunday school many years ago when we read this scripture;  "maybe this is where Ice Cube got the phrase 'check yo self'"

 

How can G-d hold someone accountable for that which they do not understand as sin?

[Seminarysnoozer]

How can G-d hold someone accountable for that which they do not understand as sin?

God judges our character, the desires of the heart as well as works.

 

D&C 137; "7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts."

 

D&C 7; " 8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

 

Alma 29; " 4 I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction."

 

Neal A. Maxwell; "Desire denotes a real longing or craving. Hence righteous desires are much more than passive preferences or fleeting feelings. Of course our genes, circumstances, and environments matter very much, and they shape us significantly. Yet there remains an inner zone in which we are sovereign, unless we abdicate. In this zone lies the essence of our individuality and our personal accountability.

Therefore, what we insistently desire, over time, is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity. “For I [said the Lord] will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts”

 

According to Neal A. Maxwell, God judges that "inner zone", looking past genes, circumstances, environments etc.

[Traveler]

Are you saying the the desire of our heart is something physical or spiritual or both (implying the two have become integrated)?

[mdfxdb]

Matthew 5:28 - "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

 

If you think it, it's like you did it?  It's an elevated law.

[Traveler]

Matthew 5:28 - "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

 

If you think it, it's like you did it?  It's an elevated law.

There is a little more than a thought going on with looking and lusting after.  --- But not much.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are you saying the the desire of our heart is something physical or spiritual or both (implying the two have become integrated)?

The "desire of the heart" is spiritual.

[Traveler]

The "desire of the heart" is spiritual.

 

Agreed     Now - - there is no sin until (or unless) the spirit is involved?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Agreed     Now - - there is no sin until (or unless) the spirit is involved?

Of course.

[Traveler]

[The Folk Prophet]

Agreed     Now - - there is no sin until (or unless) the spirit is involved?

 

Of course.

 

Oh my goodness gracious me. I believe the world has ended.

[Seminarysnoozer]

How can G-d hold someone accountable for that which they do not understand as sin?

D&C 137; "7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

 

It is easy to focus on the people who are being talked about in these verses but what about the people that are excluded by these verses?  What about those who die without the knowledge and would not have received it with all their heart?  How is God making that judgement?  Are they being judged about something they would have done but never had the chance to show it? 

 

....Or, is it that God can see the desire of the heart even when there is no knowledge?  I think you are making knowledge a prerequisite to call something a sin but really all that it requires is a desire of the heart, a leaning, a tendency, a character trait.  God can judge those charater traits without a person having full knowledge and in fact that is what happens when someone lives by faith.

 

Note, the scripture says "who would have recieved it if they would have been permitted to tarry" it doesn't say, 'who didn't receive it here but received it in spirit prison'.  as verse 9 and 10 say; " 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

 10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

The situation for those that die without knowledge of the gospel are judged in the same way that children who die before the age of accountability - based in what they would have chosen, God knowing their character. 

 

Are "knowledge" and "desires of the heart" synonymous to you?  I think they are different.

[Lakumi]

George Lucas is a terrible writer, just so we're all clear on that.

[Traveler]

George Lucas is a terrible writer, just so we're all clear on that.

 

If you are implying that he does not engage anyone with his storytelling abilities -- you obviously have difficulty paying much attention to reality - and the ever changing relationship between the fantasy of storytelling with the greater perceptions of reality.

[Lakumi]

No I just thought the Star Wars prequels were terrible, lots of nerd rage to be had.
Indiana Jones 4 wasn't that great either.

[Traveler]

 

D&C 137; "7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

 

It is easy to focus on the people who are being talked about in these verses but what about the people that are excluded by these verses?  What about those who die without the knowledge and would not have received it with all their heart?  How is God making that judgement?  Are they being judged about something they would have done but never had the chance to show it? 

 

....Or, is it that God can see the desire of the heart even when there is no knowledge?  I think you are making knowledge a prerequisite to call something a sin but really all that it requires is a desire of the heart, a leaning, a tendency, a character trait.  God can judge those charater traits without a person having full knowledge and in fact that is what happens when someone lives by faith.

 

Note, the scripture says "who would have recieved it if they would have been permitted to tarry" it doesn't say, 'who didn't receive it here but received it in spirit prison'.  as verse 9 and 10 say; " 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

 10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

The situation for those that die without knowledge of the gospel are judged in the same way that children who die before the age of accountability - based in what they would have chosen, God knowing their character. 

 

Are "knowledge" and "desires of the heart" synonymous to you?  I think they are different.

 

I am convinced by those that say and believe that children "cannot" sin; either have no real experience with children or they choose to ignore the obvious established by any actual experience.  For example.  Is there anyone that disagrees that lying is a sin?  If someone thinks that children cannot lie and do not lie - I conclude that they do not deal with children with enough depth to realize what is actually happening.    That such thinking is so caught up in trying to apply theory that they do not comprehend reality.

[Traveler]

No I just thought the Star Wars prequels were terrible, lots of nerd rage to be had.

Indiana Jones 4 wasn't that great either.

 

You are missing the point - the fact that you are still wrapped up in such stories for how many year since your first involvement?  Are you measuring how much you liked it or how much you are engaged?  The fact that you feel expert to argue points of his storytelling proves you are both interested and engaged.

[Lakumi]

I would say both, and I've loved Star Wars and Star Trek since I was a small boy and you are right they have been with me for a long time... I know that gives me a lot of dislike for the prequels, the rest comes from the fact they are poorly made, IMO

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am convinced by those that say and believe that children "cannot" sin; either have no real experience with children or they choose to ignore the obvious established by any actual experience.  For example.  Is there anyone that disagrees that lying is a sin?  If someone thinks that children cannot lie and do not lie - I conclude that they do not deal with children with enough depth to realize what is actually happening.    That such thinking is so caught up in trying to apply theory that they do not comprehend reality.

Sin requires accountability.  Not sure why you are selectively leaving that out.  It is not just the act of lying or even murder for that matter.  Cecil Newton Mahan, 6 years old, shot and killed his friend over a piece of scrap metal in 1929. Did he murder? Yes.  Is murder a sin? Yes.  Did Cecil Newton Mahan commit a sin? No!   How is that?  He hasn't reached the age of accountability.  One has to be accountable to commit "sin".  Does one have to be accountable to do evil?  No. How is that?  Because the mortal body is corrupt and can act against the will of God on its own. It can cause the Apostles to fall asleep in the Garden of Gesthemane against their own spirit's will. Did the Apostles commit sin in their falling asleep?  No, because the spirit is willing, that is the key!

 

If Cecil Newton Mahan, who murdered his friend at the age of 6, died at the age of 7, where would he go in the next life?  To the Celestial Kingdom.  How is that?  Because he is not accountable for his actions before the age of 8 and therefore is not capable of commiting sin.

 

So, you disagree with Mormon?  Moroni 8; " 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."

 

Moroni 8; "11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

 12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

 13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell."

[Traveler]

Sin requires accountability.  Not sure why you are selectively leaving that out.  It is not just the act of lying or even murder for that matter.  Cecil Newton Mahan, 6 years old, shot and killed his friend over a piece of scrap metal in 1929. Did he murder? Yes.  Is murder a sin? Yes.  Did Cecil Newton Mahan commit a sin? No!   How is that?  He hasn't reached the age of accountability.  One has to be accountable to commit "sin".  Does one have to be accountable to do evil?  No. How is that?  Because the mortal body is corrupt and can act against the will of God on its own. It can cause the Apostles to fall asleep in the Garden of Gesthemane against their own spirit's will. Did the Apostles commit sin in their falling asleep?  No, because the spirit is willing, that is the key!

 

If Cecil Newton Mahan, who murdered his friend at the age of 6, died at the age of 7, where would he go in the next life?  To the Celestial Kingdom.  How is that?  Because he is not accountable for his actions before the age of 8 and therefore is not capable of commiting sin.

 

So, you disagree with Mormon?  Moroni 8; " 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."

 

Moroni 8; "11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

 12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

 13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell."

 

Before accountability there is law.  See Alma 42.  The whole chapter is on law, justice and the mercy of G-d.  Some interesting point in this chapter of Alma you may find helpful.

 

In verses 7 & 9 - that the fall of man was both temporal (physical) as well as spiritual.  Thus the spirit was corrupted as much as was the physical and the spirit of man needed redemption from the fall as much or more so than the spirit.  From verses 9:10

 

9: Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10: Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

 

 

Note: that as carnal and sensual is for the most part physical that devilish is for the most part spiritual.  Thus man (both temporally and spiritually is fallen.  That in the fall, the spirit was as corrupted as was the physical

 

Now from verse 22

 

22. But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 

Note that the requirement for sin - is that there must be a law and that justice does not concern itself with accountability in order to determine if there is a punishment but fixes a punishment according to the law - NOT ACCOUNTABILITY.  Note that if there is a law then there there must be a punishment - if it were not so then G-d would cease to be G-d.

 

The reason that children are not held accountable is because Christ has taken upon him their punishment and they are redeemed from sin. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Before accountability there is law.  See Alma 42.  The whole chapter is on law, justice and the mercy of G-d.  Some interesting point in this chapter of Alma you may find helpful.

 

In verses 7 & 9 - that the fall of man was both temporal (physical) as well as spiritual.  Thus the spirit was corrupted as much as was the physical and the spirit of man needed redemption from the fall as much or more so than the spirit.  From verses 9:10

 

 

Note: that as carnal and sensual is for the most part physical that devilish is for the most part spiritual.  Thus man (both temporally and spiritually is fallen.  That in the fall, the spirit was as corrupted as was the physical

 

Now from verse 22

 

Note that the requirement for sin - is that there must be a law and that justice does not concern itself with accountability in order to determine if there is a punishment but fixes a punishment according to the law - NOT ACCOUNTABILITY.  Note that if there is a law then there there must be a punishment - if it were not so then G-d would cease to be G-d.

 

The reason that children are not held accountable is because Christ has taken upon him their punishment and they are redeemed from sin. 

Christ satisfies the demands of justice for children insomuch as they are not capable of commiting sin as stated by Mormon.  And so long as we stay within the redeeming graces of the effect of Christ's atonement then we are not subject to the law.  Christ's atonement satisfies the law. Mosiah 15; " 9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice."  Alma 42 is the discussion for which we better understand the need for a Savior.  And that has happened already. We don't have to go back to those earlier steps, we are beyond that now.

 

The law alone does not allow for a state of probation or a chance to make it right.  2 Nephi 2; " 21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."

Articles of Faith; " 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

 

As Christ has satisfied the demands of the law and justice now we are beholden to Him and His gospel.  WIthin His gospel and His requirement for us, He has accounted for all those that die before the age of accountability as well as those that have limited accountability and will judge us based on accountability and the laws that are given.  We can be made alive in Christ and avoid the effects of spiritual death, "all mankind may be saved" and children are saved from the foundation of the world (meaning from the very beginning - i.e they were never not saved). 

 

Do you really disbelieve Mormon's statement, that children are not capable of commiting sin?  We do not believe that they commited some sin and then saved from it, we believe that they are not capable of commiting sin in the first place, like Mormon clearly says. Forget about the law and Justice, unless you think Christ did not satisfy the demands of justice.  Christ fully satisfies the law for children, there is no mark left over, there is no smudge where there was a sin errased from the books, it is clear, white as snow, no evidence for anything related to sin in the spirit of children before the age of accountability.

[Traveler]

Christ satisfies the demands of justice for children insomuch as they are not capable of commiting sin as stated by Mormon.  And so long as we stay within the redeeming graces of the effect of Christ's atonement then we are not subject to the law.  Christ's atonement satisfies the law. Mosiah 15; " 9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice."  Alma 42 is the discussion for which we better understand the need for a Savior.  And that has happened already. We don't have to go back to those earlier steps, we are beyond that now.

 

The law alone does not allow for a state of probation or a chance to make it right.  2 Nephi 2; " 21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."

Articles of Faith; " 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

 

As Christ has satisfied the demands of the law and justice now we are beholden to Him and His gospel.  WIthin His gospel and His requirement for us, He has accounted for all those that die before the age of accountability as well as those that have limited accountability and will judge us based on accountability and the laws that are given.  We can be made alive in Christ and avoid the effects of spiritual death, "all mankind may be saved" and children are saved from the foundation of the world (meaning from the very beginning - i.e they were never not saved). 

 

Do you really disbelieve Mormon's statement, that children are not capable of commiting sin?  We do not believe that they commited some sin and then saved from it, we believe that they are not capable of commiting sin in the first place, like Mormon clearly says. Forget about the law and Justice, unless you think Christ did not satisfy the demands of justice.  Christ fully satisfies the law for children, there is no mark left over, there is no smudge where there was a sin errased from the books, it is clear, white as snow, no evidence for anything related to sin in the spirit of children before the age of accountability.

 

I have been around children enough to know that they will on occasion lie despite that they know that lying is wrong.  From your posts - I assume that you have not been present when this has actually occurred?  I also remember well when I was younger than 8, by a few years - knowingly telling lies, causing many problems, feeling sorry and making a determination to avoid lying because I was sure it was wrong and knew it was wrong and knew that I was tempted to lie.  Then even after such determination I have very good recollection of hatching plans to lie again before I even did the things I planed to lie about. Since your interpretation of such things is so different than my experience - I can only assume that either you have not observed that children will lie or you chose to ignore your own childish lies or you observe as I have but have chosen to deny such experiences ever happened - perhaps to justify your point of view and interpretation of religious ideas.

 

BTW - did you happen to catch that part in Alma 42:9-10 where he clearly states that spirits are corrupted because of the fall just like the physical flesh is corrupted?

[The Folk Prophet]

I have been around children enough to know that they will on occasion lie despite that they know that lying is wrong.  From your posts - I assume that you have not been present when this has actually occurred?  I also remember well when I was younger than 8, by a few years - knowingly telling lies, causing many problems, feeling sorry and making a determination to avoid lying because I was sure it was wrong and knew it was wrong and knew that I was tempted to lie.  Then even after such determination I have very good recollection of hatching plans to lie again before I even did the things I planed to lie about. Since your interpretation of such things is so different than my experience - I can only assume that either you have not observed that children will lie or you chose to ignore your own childish lies or you observe as I have but have chosen to deny such experiences ever happened - perhaps to justify your point of view and interpretation of religious ideas.

 

BTW - did you happen to catch that part in Alma 42:9-10 where he clearly states that spirits are corrupted because of the fall just like the physical flesh is corrupted?

 

SS is right in this case though. Children cannot sin. Pointing out that children lie is not valid. It's like pointing out that babies poop in their diapers. Children do "wrong" things all the time. That is not debatable. Everyone knows that. The point is that when children do wrong things it is NOT sin. For sin to be sin, accountability is required. No accountability -- no sin.

[Guest]

Are we on this merry path again of using the word Sin to mean two different things?

 

For Traveler - doing bad things is a sin regardless of whether you know it is bad or not.  It's a black or white - this is right, this is wrong.  Those that you did wrong without knowledge is automatically atoned for by Christ without need for repentance.

For Seminary - doing bad things is not a sin if you have no knowledge or have not developed the necessary maturity to exercise free agency as there is no need for repentance since Christ atoned for all our sins.

 

I don't know about you... but they both sound the same to me.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have been around children enough to know that they will on occasion lie despite that they know that lying is wrong.  From your posts - I assume that you have not been present when this has actually occurred?  I also remember well when I was younger than 8, by a few years - knowingly telling lies, causing many problems, feeling sorry and making a determination to avoid lying because I was sure it was wrong and knew it was wrong and knew that I was tempted to lie.  Then even after such determination I have very good recollection of hatching plans to lie again before I even did the things I planed to lie about. Since your interpretation of such things is so different than my experience - I can only assume that either you have not observed that children will lie or you chose to ignore your own childish lies or you observe as I have but have chosen to deny such experiences ever happened - perhaps to justify your point of view and interpretation of religious ideas.

 

BTW - did you happen to catch that part in Alma 42:9-10 where he clearly states that spirits are corrupted because of the fall just like the physical flesh is corrupted?

I have 4 children, I know all about the struggles of children.

 

I also know that little children are kept alive in Christ before the age of accountability.  You can focus on one step of the process as if that is everything but I think it would be good to look at the whole picture as well.  Because there is spiritual death we need a Savior.  Because we have a Savior we can be kept alive in Christ and not experience the spiritual death and corruption at least until the age of accountability or for those who have conditions in which they cannot hold accountability (i.e - Down's syndrome, etc.). 

 

I think you would like to believe that Christ's ability to keep them "alive" is not that strong, that somehow there remains some mark of corruption on their spirits.  This is not true.  Christ's atonement fully satisfies the otherwise effect of the spiritual separation and protects little children from the effects of the Fall, 100%.  Spiritual death has no effect on little children because they are kept alive in Christ.  Do you not think that Christ can keep them "alive" (spiritually)?  Don't you think that is within His power? He says he has as well as many of the leaders of the church who receive His word. In fact, Mormon warns not to think otherwise because it is a disbelief in Christ' power if you believe he cannot do that or that it is not complete.

 

As far as little children lying etc. and even the example I gave of a 6 year commiting murder, this is all as a result of having a corrupted body and the spirit not yet capable of forcing its influence over the body.  God knows the difference and has accounted for that, why can't you?   I can tell you why you have a hard time with this, it is because you believe that every thought and action we have and do emanates from the spirit alone.  That is your hang up.  Open your mind and understanding and realize that we are dual beings.  We are not a being with a cover, we are dual beings, each with its own nature.  Before we reach the age of 8 and in people who cannot be held accountable (such as in Down's syndrome) the body overpowers the spirit to such a degree that there is no significant agency enough to allow for accountability.   Thus, we call it the age of accountability. 

 

If that were not the case, what does "age of accountability" refer to?  We know we come to this world as fully matured spirits having spent eons of time in the presence of our Heavenly Father and developing all the traits we could.  We even made a very responsible decision in the first estate test, proving our ability to be held accountable for our decisions. If that is the case then how could there be an "age of accountability"?  It is because we are not talking about some needed development of the spirit.  The "age of accountability" is refering to the age of the body.  Why would the age of the body matter if the input to the dynamic between the body and spirit is a one way street?  It wouldn't.  Obviously the body has some power and influence over what we call sin, enough to have to wait 8 years until it a level enough playing field that the dynamic between body and spirit allows for a test. 

 

If the Chicago Bulls played our local junior high basketball team, there would be no fair contest.  Baring some miracle (like when babies spoke in tongues) the Chicago Bulls would win every time.  There would have to be some "special status" for that contest until they devloped enough to really be a challenge for them.   Likewise, when my children were learning how to walk and fell to the ground, I didn't yell at them or punish them in any way, they had a special understanding that they are not capable or responsible for such falls.  If a child fell while walking later in life then I would say there is something wrong and take them to the doctor.  Children have a special status in the eyes of the Lord in which they remain untainted from the effects of the Fall despite their bodies being corrupted and doing things their spirits would not want them to do.  If they exhibit any lack of control after the age of accountability then that is potentially called a sin but not before.

 

The thing you might be having difficulty with is admitting to the fact that the body can act against the will of God without the spirit controling that action.  That lack of control in those older than the age of 8 is called being carnally minded when it is related to something that we are supossed to control (not all actions of the body).   The body can sleep despite the spirit wanting it to do otherwise, like what happened with the Apostles. We cannot run faster than we are capable.  How fast can any one person "run"?  God only knows that, knowing the relative strengths and weaknesses of both the body and spirit for any given individual. 

 

We each have been given different challenges.  My daughter has a hard time getting to bed early where I don't, this is a body issue, possibly not spiritual.  They have mapped out the genes that control circadian rythm, the hper2 gene that tells the body to stay awake longer.  Her genes may be different than mine, as her battles would be different than mine.  There are likely genes that make a body be attracted to the same sex, that person's battles in life are different than mine.  The battle is still the basic one that Elder Bednar explained, which source do we follow, the drives of the body or of the spirit and to what degree.  The result of that test depends on the variables that we have no access to, but God does.  He also knows when the battle is not a fair one and accomodates that situation as He has allowed for those under the age of 8.  He flooded the world with that same concern, to make the playing field more conducive to the test.  The genetic dispositions of those that died in the flood were too strong for spirits to resist and would thwart the purposes of this life.

 

If this life was just a test of the spirit then we would be repeating the same test we took in the first estate.  This test is a test of integrity, a character test.  Will we do the things we said we would even when we are not in 100% control and forces are against us, such as what happens in the "heat of the battle".  Will the soldier act the way he was trained to do and performed well in boot camp even when he is in the heat of the battle?    Our spirits are already proven, now is the heat of the battle test where we are not 100% ourself.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are we on this merry path again of using the word Sin to mean two different things?

 

For Traveler - doing bad things is a sin regardless of whether you know it is bad or not.  It's a black or white - this is right, this is wrong.  Those that you did wrong without knowledge is automatically atoned for by Christ without need for repentance.

For Seminary - doing bad things is not a sin if you have no knowledge or have not developed the necessary maturity to exercise free agency as there is no need for repentance since Christ atoned for all our sins.

 

I don't know about you... but they both sound the same to me.

What makes it different is that I am saying that little children have a special status in which they are not capable of sinning because of the protection received and in place as a result of the atonement.  Whereas Traveler is saying that children still sin but it is quickly taken away or erased by the atonement after it is performed as a sin.  I am saying because of the atonement they cannot sin in the first place.

 

But then the debate is how can they do "bad" things and it not be called a "sin" even if Christ immediately clears it up?  It is because we are dual beings and the body will drive it's corrupted nature when the spirit is not in control, either because a person has let that happen or because the person is not really capable of having reasonable control either because of age or other condition.

 

I earlier gave the example of someone slipping something in someone's drink and then the person commits extramarital sex.  Is that a sin?  If it is not a sin then how can the person act in a way that is against the will of God and it is not called sin?  Because an act of the body may not be the same thing of an act when the spirit is in control of the body (for the most part).  This is exemplified by the Apostles falling asleep in the garden, the spirit is willing but the body is weak - the body couldn't do it.  What won out in that setting?  The body won out over the spirit.  Is that a sin?  no.  Why?  Because there are times and situations in which God realizes we cannot run faster than we are capable, the body is weak and only He knows what those weaknesses are for any given person.  

 

I have a feeling (can't speak for him) that he would suggest we are accountable for all our actions without any consideration to the situation, child, mentally handicapped, or drug impaired, it is all the same, sin is sin.