Evidences Of The Great Apostasy

[Holly3278]

Hi everyone! What evidences do we have of the Great Apostasy? What I can think of is this. The apostles died and after this many heresies arose such as Gnosticism and Montanism. From nearly the beginning the church was divided. Catholics claim that it wasn't but in fact Catholicism itself didn't exist until Constantine legalized Christianity around 315 CE. Then around 1050 or so CE we have Eastern Orthodoxy splitting off of Catholicism. This is not to mention all of the heresies that existed before this time. There is a huge list of them! Christianity never was one after the apostles died. To me, this is just evidence of the Great Apostasy. What do you think and what other evidence can you think of?

[Dr T]

Gnosticism was around during the lives of the Apostles. 1 John was written to address that concept in the church. As far as splitting from Catholicism, the LDS church has also split. What does that mean?

[Holly3278]

Gnosticism was around during the lives of the Apostles. 1 John was written to address that concept in the church. As far as splitting from Catholicism, the LDS church has also split. What does that mean?

What are you talking about that the LDS church also split. The LDS church didn't split off of anybody. The LDS church is a restorationist church, we did not split off of anybody. But then again, I could be wrong.

[CrimsonKairos]

Dr. T's referring to the RLDS break-off following Joseph Smith's murder. Or as the RLDS would say, the LDS break-off. :)

The great schism of the 11th century between the Roman and Greek Orthodox Catholic churches was mainly over doctrine (filioque), whereas the LDS and RLDS split was based on leadership (who should succeed Joseph Smith as prophet).

[Dr T]

No, I'm talking about the LDS and The Community of Christ (or whatever it is called). Who should follow as the president of the church? The LDS split into two. Those have produced other factions as well. That's what I meant.

[CrimsonKairos]

The Community of Christ was formerly called RLDS. Same thing. Though now there are RLDS who split from CoC. Originally, though, it was just LDS and RLDS in terms of major followings.

[Holly3278]

Well, lets keep this thread about evidences of the Great Apostasy, not who split off of who.

[Dr T]

Our posts crossed CK. PalGirl, I was only responding to your "example of apostasy" from your OP. I was only pointing out that it may only be something that happened and have nothing to do with the concept of apostasy in the church, which as all already know, I don't believe in. Just giving my side.

[CrimsonKairos]

Our posts crossed CK.

Gotcha.

[Holly3278]

Our posts crossed CK. PalGirl, I was only responding to your "example of apostasy" from your OP. I was only pointing out that it may only be something that happened and have nothing to do with the concept of apostasy in the church, which as all already know, I don't believe in. Just giving my side.

Don't worry about it. This applies to all off topic posts. I'm not mad, just issuing a reminder for people to stay on topic.

[vinny15]

Look at Amos 8:11-12. It talks of a famine of the gospel.

Than in 1corintheans 10-13 It speaks of churches named after people and not christ. He says was paul crucified for you, were ye baptised in the name of paul.

He also says let there not be divisions among you. Yes there are divisions of the LDS church, but they cam after. The first is the most correct.

CHrists church on earth was correct and after he died the apostles took over and the eldest aposlte was the prophet just as the LDS church does it. It isnt lineal.

[Dr T]

The true church starts and ends with God not man. Not apostles/leaders. It was Jesus and him crucified. That's it.

[prisonchaplain]

I would argue that there were heresies and divisions DURING the times of the Apostles. Paul contended with the"super apostles," and the disciples of John complained about the disciples of Jesus. Jesus' own response to "other faction" was leave them be, unless they directly oppose us.

So, the existence of factions and divisions--even schism--isn't compelling evidence of an all-encompassing apostasy that was so great that, in essence, there was no true church on the earth.

<div class='quotemain'>

Gnosticism was around during the lives of the Apostles. 1 John was written to address that concept in the church. As far as splitting from Catholicism, the LDS church has also split. What does that mean?

What are you talking about that the LDS church also split. The LDS church didn't split off of anybody. The LDS church is a restorationist church, we did not split off of anybody. But then again, I could be wrong.

Not to be cute (okay, I am being cute), but the LDS Church split off, not from "anybody", but from "everybody." Additionally, in keeping with the doctrine of the Great Apostasy, it's not "a" restorationist church, but "THE" restoration of THE church.

What mitigates the starkness of these claims are the three kingdoms of heaven, the belief in everyone's opportunity for full embrace of the gospel, and your belief that hell is a very small domain.

[Jason]

One might say that there was great diversity of practice and doctrine in the early church, even during the lives of the Apostles.

One might also say that it was just as diverse then as it is today, and that all forms of Christianity are equally valid.

[prisonchaplain]

One might say that there was great diversity of practice and doctrine in the early church, even during the lives of the Apostles.

One might also say that it was just as diverse then as it is today, and that all forms of Christianity are equally valid.

We may all be equal, but some are more equal than others. LOL

You do not seriously want to compare the theological offerings of Jack Jick with those of the John Calvin, Arminius, or even moderns like Millet and Robinson (LDS scholars)?

[vinny15]

The true church starts and ends with God not man. Not apostles/leaders. It was Jesus and him crucified. That's it.

No argument there, but if your saying that we dont need them than you are sorely mistaken my friend.

If it wasnt for the apostles,prophets than there would be no bible and we wouldnt even know who jesus was.

If we needed them than than we need them ten-fold now.

We need someone who can talk to God, because not everyone is able to do it themselves.

God doesnt come to you without you coming first. God does nothing save it be that he tells the prophet first.

If you think its up to us to interperet the bible ourselves and what it says than your for chaos, because thats the reason we have all the churches.

The LDS church has the priesthood the others just dont.

I would argue that there were heresies and divisions DURING the times of the Apostles. Paul contended with the"super apostles," and the disciples of John complained about the disciples of Jesus. Jesus' own response to "other faction" was leave them be, unless they directly oppose us.

So, the existence of factions and divisions--even schism--isn't compelling evidence of an all-encompassing apostasy that was so great that, in essence, there was no true church on the earth.

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Gnosticism was around during the lives of the Apostles. 1 John was written to address that concept in the church. As far as splitting from Catholicism, the LDS church has also split. What does that mean?

What are you talking about that the LDS church also split. The LDS church didn't split off of anybody. The LDS church is a restorationist church, we did not split off of anybody. But then again, I could be wrong.

Not to be cute (okay, I am being cute), but the LDS Church split off, not from "anybody", but from "everybody." Additionally, in keeping with the doctrine of the Great Apostasy, it's not "a" restorationist church, but "THE" restoration of THE church.

What mitigates the starkness of these claims are the three kingdoms of heaven, the belief in everyone's opportunity for full embrace of the gospel, and your belief that hell is a very small domain.

The three kingdoms of heaven are mentioned in 1corintheans 15 40 and 2corintheans 12 2.

You could call it the split to the original church. THe true church that christ established

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

One might say that there was great diversity of practice and doctrine in the early church, even during the lives of the Apostles.

One might also say that it was just as diverse then as it is today, and that all forms of Christianity are equally valid.

We may all be equal, but some are more equal than others. LOL

You do not seriously want to compare the theological offerings of Jack Jick with those of the John Calvin, Arminius, or even moderns like Millet and Robinson (LDS scholars)?

Do you mean Jack Chick? No, his "theology" is warped and based on the "Hate and Burn" gospel.

If it wasnt for the apostles,prophets than there would be no bible and we wouldnt even know who jesus was.

Well they wrote the texts (supposedly), but if it wasn't for the Catholic Church, there would be no Bible.

If we needed them than than we need them ten-fold now.

One does not become a Prophet or Apostle by popular vote. Show me one instance in the Bible or Book of Mormon where God put it up to a vote?

We need someone who can talk to God, because not everyone is able to do it themselves.

Anyone can, but some choose not to, or others choose to allow others to do it for them like you guys.

God doesnt come to you without you coming first. God does nothing save it be that he tells the prophet first.

We are all prophets.

If you think its up to us to interperet the bible ourselves and what it says than your for chaos, because thats the reason we have all the churches.

The LDS church has the priesthood the others just dont.

Well you might have the Priesthood of believers, but you do not have the historic Priesthood handed down from Jesus's mortal ministry.

[Dr T]

God comes to use. So much so that Jesus took on humanity and dwelt among us. God comes to us. Was it Adam that came to him? There is no need for apostles. They have nothing I don't posses besides the LDS following's respect. I am just as much priest without needing the laying on of hands because Jesus made me so.

[CrimsonKairos]

Jason and Dr. T, you're missing the point.

The LDS belief in apostles and prophets is predicated on the concept of organization, order and authority.

What the prophet has that I don't, is the authority to speak to the whole LDS Church about matters of doctrine. I have the right to pray to God. I have the right to speak to God. I have the right to draw near to God.

I don't have the right to speak for God to all of the believers. Of course, if you don't believe God wants His followers organized and assembled, than no one needs to speak to anyone else for God.

I believe that Christ's New Testament Church was about order, organization and authority. No one's trying to say you can't have a relationship with God except through an apostle. God can speak to you through the Spirit anytime, anywhere (assuming we're listening). However, He also calls men to be prophets and apostles and add their voices to the still, small voice of the Spirit.

It's an ancient and well-established pattern. I don't see why all the objections to the concept of living apostles and prophets.

Dr. T, if no laying on of hands is necessary to serve in Christ's Church, why does the New Testament so often record the apostles laying hands on others before sending them out to do certain work? Refer to Timothy, Stephen, et al...

[Dr T]

Cultural phenomenon maybe. I don't think we need apostles and prophets because Christ fulfilled all during his visit to Earth and the established Bible scriptures (OT & NT). I think He's told us everything we need to know about salvation and we do not need current prophets.

[CrimsonKairos]

To each his own.

[vinny15]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

One might say that there was great diversity of practice and doctrine in the early church, even during the lives of the Apostles.

One might also say that it was just as diverse then as it is today, and that all forms of Christianity are equally valid.

We may all be equal, but some are more equal than others. LOL

You do not seriously want to compare the theological offerings of Jack Jick with those of the John Calvin, Arminius, or even moderns like Millet and Robinson (LDS scholars)?

Do you mean Jack Chick? No, his "theology" is warped and based on the "Hate and Burn" gospel.

If it wasnt for the apostles,prophets than there would be no bible and we wouldnt even know who jesus was.

Well they wrote the texts (supposedly), but if it wasn't for the Catholic Church, there would be no Bible.

If we needed them than than we need them ten-fold now.

One does not become a Prophet or Apostle by popular vote. Show me one instance in the Bible or Book of Mormon where God put it up to a vote?

We need someone who can talk to God, because not everyone is able to do it themselves.

Anyone can, but some choose not to, or others choose to allow others to do it for them like you guys.

God doesnt come to you without you coming first. God does nothing save it be that he tells the prophet first.

We are all prophets.

If you think its up to us to interperet the bible ourselves and what it says than your for chaos, because thats the reason we have all the churches.

The LDS church has the priesthood the others just dont.

Well you might have the Priesthood of believers, but you do not have the historic Priesthood handed down from Jesus's mortal ministry.

Nice opinions

[prisonchaplain]

Dr. T, if no laying on of hands is necessary to serve in Christ's Church, why does the New Testament so often record the apostles laying hands on others before sending them out to do certain work? Refer to Timothy, Stephen, et al...

For the record, I did have hands laid on me as I was ordained. I have also experienced the gift of prophecy, when God's Spirit gave me words to speak to the faithful (though I do not call myself a prophet). So, the question becomes, did the leaders of my church have the authority to "confirm what God had already done"? Further, did I really receive a message from God to pass on to my local church?

Do you mean Jack Chick? No, his "theology" is warped and based on the "Hate and Burn" gospel.

Yes. That's the guy. Thank you for confirming that not all theologies are created equal, nor are they all blessed with the same level of validity.

[BenRaines]

I know of no where in LDS beliefs where it is said that one can not receive inspiration from God or through the Holy Ghost for those over whom they have stewardship. I believe they can, both LDS and Non LDS.

Ben Raines

[Jason]

Nice opinions

That's what all doctrine and revelation is Vinny....just someone's opinion.