I need help with some doctrinal understanding

[spamlds]

I'll give an opinion on this one and you all can consider it or dismiss it, but it's just some notions I've come to over many years. 

There is a fundamental difference between "fair" and "equal."  Anyone who has kids knows this.  If a parent hands out bowls of ice cream to a large family of children, the "fair" portion for a 2 year-old and a 16 year-old are not "equal."  Likewise, our Heavenly Father judges what is fair, not us.  Thus some apparent inequalities will exist.

 

These inequities take into consideration our premortal faithfulness.  For example, my patriarchal blessing says that, because of my premortal faithfulness (of which I have no recollection, of course) I was blessed to be born in the land of America.  Whatever I did in the premortal life is related to that blessing somehow.  Each of us has different missions to perform.  It may be the case that some of the most righteous, noble spirits were born in countries where they have much fewer opportunities, because the Lord knew they'd hear his voice in the gospel message, convert, and save hundreds of people around them as well as many of their ancestors.    Likewise a person might be born with a disability because she needs the testing and trials to progress.  It may be that it's her family that needs the testing, through compassionately caring for her.  We just can't say.

 

We can't say that God is only fair if he gives "equal" chances to hear the gospel.  An inspired dream that LDS pioneer Mosiah Hancock had mentions that some premortal spirits were more concerned about facing lives of physical hardship and asked the Lord to make them wealthy or in high social positions like politicians, judges, etc. so they would have an easier life.  Meanwhile, he saw that many pioneers were willing to sacrifice all worldly comforts when their premortal missions were given to them, all because their devotion to the truth was worth everything to them.

 

In the spirit world, it is as it is here on earth.  People see what they can see with their spiritual eyes.  People who walk in the light on earth experience life much differently than do the wicked.  When the righteous get to the spirit world, they see the same things they saw here.  They witness miracles.  They are guided by the Holy Ghost.  They resisted evil in life because it was their faith that led them to do so.  The wicked also continue to see the same things when they cross the veil in to the spirit world.  They experience reality based on their perceptions--a world in which there is lack and scarcity, where want and covetousness, lust and envy, and most especially fear dominated their experience.

 

The big difference between the spirit world and this world is having a body.  We are taught that it is harder to repent without a body.  I think that is so because the spirits have incredible freedom to travel and see things.  The Brigham Young Presidents of the Church manual has a great lesson in it about the spirit world.  Brother Brigham said that spirits can move like lightning and see anything they wish to see.  The key in that notion is their desires.  The righteous will desire to see righteousness.  The wicked will use this ability to try to satisfy wicked desires. 

 

Imagine this--a wicked man dies who is addicted to alcohol or drugs. He indulged in fleshly lusts in his life, pornography, etc.  In a spiritual state where he can travel and see almost anything, it is reasonable to assume that he might try to satisfy those lusts somehow.  He might travel to places of illicit adult entertainment or bars, nightclubs, etc.  He might even try to possess the body of another mortal to have just a few more moments of mortal pleasure.  That evil spirit would become further entrenched in his evil desires, without the means to satisfy them.  He becomes increasingly warped and wicked in the process.  Unless he repents, he cannot be rescued.  In that spiritual state, it is actually less likely for him to find deliverance. 

 

The wicked in the spirit world are not yet delivered from Satan's power and his minions.  Similarly, sectarian believers who end up in the spirit world may well think that they are "saved" because they aren't dead.  The doctrines of their religions didn't teach a literal resurrection.  There will be false teacher there, just as there are here, who will say that they should resist the messages brought by those Mormon elders who might lead them to destruction.  Only the righteous, who overcame Satan in mortality through their faith and obedience, will be immune to the Deceiver's power. 

 

In the end, the unbelieving souls who die do not get any unfair advantage in the spirit world over the living.  God has made it every bit as challenging for them there as it is here.  When they believe, repent, and accept baptism, they do exactly what the penitent do in mortality--they gather with the saints and join together to edify and protect one another.  The wicked do exactly what they do here--they gather with like spirits and seek the wickedness that they were attracted to in mortality.

 

This is why baptism for the dead is SO important.  It enables a penitent spirit to enter the Church on the other side of the veil and enjoy the same blessings and protection we receive as members.  They get the gift of the Holy Ghost and enjoy the peace of a remission of sins. 

 

Anyways, those are a few thoughts on the topic at hand.  God is fair, but fair isn't always "equal."  We get the chances we desire.  Our desires are the key factor in what becomes of us in eternity.  That's why agency is always the ultimate factor because our desires connect with agency to determine the outcomes.  We always--always--get what we want because our desires turn into actions and actions into consequences.  It's no different on this side of the veil than on the other in that regard.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you to all of you who have replied to me.  I would like to apologize if I came across as judgmental or prideful; I just wanted to ask questions that have been on my mind for a while.  I don't wish eternal damnation on anyone, I've just been wondering about this topic. I have never heard anyone say in church that people in the Spirit World/Prison may not accept the Gospel and I have never heard that the veil is still in place for those in Spirit Prison.  Is there somewhere in scripture where this is found?

 

I believe in the Atonement and I recognize that everything good in my life has come from being a member of the church and attempting to follow Christ.  I do not have a perfect knowledge of things and the hope is all I feel I have at times.  I had always heard it was more difficult to repent in Spirit Prison but that was the end of what I knew and if we did temple work for our ancestors, then they would go to the Celestial Kingdom.

 

Anyway, I ask these things because on a personal level there are people who have committed sin who are close to me and their choices have affected me and changed my life. I believe the Atonement applies to them and if/when they repent that is between them and God; I was just wondering what if they died without repenting how would it work?  If I went and "did their temple work" would it all be OK?  

 

So, as I understand it now, people who die without finding the Gospel, baptism, etc. are taught the Gospel in Spirit Prison and the veil we have here is still in effect there, they don't have any more knowledge or remembrances than what we have now?  If they choose to accept the Gospel and the temple work is done for them then they will likely receive exaltation and if they reject it, then they will likely go to another kingdom? I've read the Doctrine and Covenants and I don't remember it being that detailed about the Spirit World, is there another source for this?

 

Thank you

Whenever I think of my friends and family that have taken different pathways and may be lost in the mist on the rocky paths, I try to remember that we all are okay.   We all, here, passed the first estate test.  We all, here, believe in Christ our Savior and testified as to His plan before coming here.  We all, here, are good and faithful spirits.  Yes, there were some that were more valiant in their faith but we were all faithful and righteous that ended up here. I try to remember this so that I treat them with the respect they deserve, they all will receive a Kingdom of Glory that is much greater than this existance. 

 

If we could see their future state, even it is the Telestial Kingdom, we would probably call it something 'beyond all description', something that most here would call like being a God.  The plan is a plan of Happiness.  No matter what choices one makes in this world, in the end, we will all be happy as this is a plan of Happiness for all except those few sons of perdition. Of course we want them to maximize their happiness and be together as a family but remember that even Jesus loved those that were not going to make it into the highest Kingdom, 'forgive them for they know not what they do'.

 

I love Lehi's dream because it gives a certain perspective of this life that is different than traditional religions.  It is a perspective of people who start out good and some hold onto the iron rod and remain in their goodness but others are lost or misguided or lured by things of the world.  All of those things that misguide or lure away or create a mist will be gone some day.  They will not be misguided, lured or lost forever because God's plan is one of Eternal Happiness and glory.

 

In other words, we have all earned a "free pass" as we all passed the first estate test.  We will all earn that reward and we shouldn't want to take that away from anyone who has earned that or be upset in any way that they will get their reward.  In reality it was not a "free pass" they had to prove their faithfulness like everyone else in the first estate test.

[applepansy]

Well, there is the whole, specific, "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" thing from D&C 76.

valiant by your definition.  

 

We can't judge.  It is not our place to say I'm more valiant than you.  Or wear a white church to on Sunday so I'm more valiant.  Only Christ can know our hearts.  D&C 76 describes what we can expect.  What it doesn't describe is what is in our neighbors heart.

[The Folk Prophet]

valiant by your definition.  

 

We can't judge.  It is not our place to say I'm more valiant than you.  Or wear a white church to on Sunday so I'm more valiant.  Only Christ can know our hearts.  D&C 76 describes what we can expect.  What it doesn't describe is what is in our neighbors heart.

 

Nice try.

 

My definition of valiant is those who are true to the gospel, determined to do God's will, and have the courage to endure to the end. It has no bearing on who is and who is not valiant, and I leave that to God just like you do.

 

However, as commanded, I preach the gospel. I encourage others to obey. I encourage others to do the things we've been commanded. I even encourage others to do those things that have been recommended. Hey, that might even include wearing a white shirt to church. That has nothing to do with judgment.

 

But way to try and make me look like a judgmental jerk. I appreciate it.

[applepansy]

Nice try.

 

My definition of valiant is those who are true to the gospel, determined to do God's will, and have the courage to endure to the end. It has no bearing on who is and who is not valiant, and I leave that to God just like you do.

 

However, as commanded, I preach the gospel. I encourage others to obey. I encourage others to do the things we've been commanded. I even encourage others to do those things that have been recommended. Hey, that might even include wearing a white shirt to church. That has nothing to do with judgment.

 

But way to try and make me look like a judgmental jerk. I appreciate it.

That wasn't my intent. 

 

You said "Well, there is the whole, specific, "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" thing from D&C 76."

 

I'm responding to the thread.  You brought up D&C 76.  

 

I really don't have time to go back over the course of this blow by blow.  :) 

[omegaseamaster75]

If I wear a white shirt every Sunday am I more valiant than say if I wear a pink shirt?

[The Folk Prophet]

If I wear a white shirt every Sunday am I more valiant than say if I wear a pink shirt?

 

Valiant in following the counsel of our leaders? Yes. Valiant in never missing a day of work in your life? Or paying your bills on time. Or not robbing the Kwik-E-Mart? No.

 

"Valiant" isn't an all or nothing trait. I am valiant in some things and pretty un-valiant in others. And, one can be valiant to evil as well. If you wear a pink shirt every Sunday then you may well be showing great courage in defying the counsel give. That is valiant, by definition.

 

Is that the valiance that will gain us celestial glory?

 

That's between you and God.

[The Folk Prophet]

That wasn't my intent. 

 

You said "Well, there is the whole, specific, "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" thing from D&C 76."

 

I'm responding to the thread.  You brought up D&C 76.  

 

I really don't have time to go back over the course of this blow by blow.   :) 

 

I know what I said. I'm just wondering how what I said got interpreted to mean that I was personally judging who was and who was not valiant.

[Guest]

If I wear a white shirt every Sunday am I more valiant than say if I wear a pink shirt?

 

Random.