Loving God

[Just_A_Guy]

i do, it's just that i am dismayed how few of the responses point at the Lord, and how many point at human devices. ** wants that Christ should be lifted up **

When the original question is "why can't I feel God's love?", blithely replying "you just need to feel God's love" isn't particularly helpful.

Do you think that chemical imbalances in the brain and poor psychological coping mechanisms can't affect feelings? Is your position that counting one's blessings won't bring one closer to God?

Edited December 13, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest intra]

For all your desire to offend falsehood, you sure seemed to step into it pretty deeply with this mischaracterization of LDS teaching generally and Eowyn's, PolarVortex's, and FunkyTown's posts in particular.

Do you think your master is pleased?

i'm pretty sure i asked whether LDS teaching was being mischaracterized, not accused LDS teaching of being something. 

my point, if by unintentional offense it was missed, is that the Father is the source of love. is this not the doctrine of the CoJCLDS? 

 

"Love is one of the chief characteristics of Deity, and ought to be manifested by those who aspire to be the sons of God. A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.”

Joseph Smith (History of the Church) 

 

he speaks of a man filled with "the love of God" and says love is a characteristic of diety -- if you can show me where love originates from any other place but God, i would "love" to see it. :) 

 

 

 

And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters”

Mosiah 5:7

here it says our hearts are changed through faith on his name -- so am i wrong to say that faith on an earthly thing will not produce the change in the heart that works love? because the evidence that we are sons and daughters is that we have love (1 John ch. 4). 

if i want to encourage toward goodness and towards faith in Jesus Christ, is that not love? 

 

Edited December 13, 2014 by intra

[Guest]

You might have missed that in the first reply I made to him, I asked if he had prayed about it, and prayed to feel God's love, read scriptures to get to know Him, etc. I was not the only one. He then said he had to refrain from being sarcastic in response because of course he did those things. That's when we moved on to other solutions. Are you expecting or looking for certain answers and only seeing those?

[Just_A_Guy]

i'm pretty sure i asked whether LDS teaching was being mischaracterized, not accused LDS teaching of being something.

"Just asking questions", eh?

I see.

here it says our hearts are changed through faith on his name -- so am i wrong to say that faith on an earthly thing will not produce the change in the heart that works love? because the evidence that we are sons and daughters is that we have love (1 John ch. 4).

So, let's take a person who is clinically depressed due to a chemical imbalance. They read the scriptures and pray consistently, but they feel nothing. Is that because they just are one of the damned who, by nature, never were and never will be sons of God?

But wait! Put that person on the appropriate medications and restore the appropriate biochemical balance in the brain, and voila! Suddenly, they feel many things--including God's love!

Why don't you tell us your understanding of how the works/faith balance shakes out in that scenario?

Edited December 13, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest intra]

I see.

So, let's take a person  . . .

before i start helping you burn down strawmen, could you answer my "sincere and honest questions about LDS beliefs" ? 

 

1. what is the LDS teaching on the source of love? 
2.  as follows: 

 

• Moroni 7:16

  16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

does this not say that that every thing that persuades to believe in Christ is by the power of God? 

is it not so that if i persuade to look to Him, i do the work of God? 

and while we chat, lest we are tempted to sin, let's all be reminded: 

 

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

 

 

[Guest]

Ah but see, as mods, we have a responsibility to make sure that the intent of our posters is good. You've been asked some legitimate questions to that end.

[Guest intra]

You might have missed that in the first reply I made to him, I asked if he had prayed about it, and prayed to feel God's love, read scriptures to get to know Him, etc. I was not the only one. He then said he had to refrain from being sarcastic in response because of course he did those things. That's when we moved on to other solutions. Are you expecting or looking for certain answers and only seeing those?

yes, i did see that. and you weren't alone in it, and it makes my heart glad. 

:) 

he also indicated that he'd tried therapy, and that this has been an ongoing and long struggle -- as though he has in fact tried many things without finding satisfaction. 

i myself find the love and mercies of God inexpressibly satisfying, so naturally i think that looking for comfort in places other than the Comforter will in the end prove fruitless, and my reaction on hearing anyone who has found no peace in Him is that surely the difficulty is in having not come to know Him, because He is the Prince of Peace. 

you are right to remind me that emotions are carnal and that the body is well affected by pharmakeia. do you think that i am also correct though, that regardless of what is done to medicate and attend to the needs of the body, love transcends chemistry, is of God, and must be received of God? 

i am sure that my parents demonstrated love for me and my siblings with self-sacrifice regardless of what their emotions would have told them to do. when they worked long hours and gave up sleep and their own passions for my benefit, they were acting contrary to what they felt in their bellies. quite honestly, i think John (are you still listening?) that you may in fact have love for God but simply do not recognize it, because He has put in you a desire to love Him, and caused you to chastise yourself where your fleshly heart fails to live up to what your spirit knows is required -- and that the wisdom to recognize this comes from seeking God's good pleasure rather than our own. 

i know that the answers i quoted were well-intentioned, but i am convinced the primary purpose of my life is to point to Christ. as i said it is not to offend anyone i put this, but to put Christ above all things. 

[Guest]

I'll just say that great faith is a blessing I feel I've had all my life. I've never doubted the presence or love of God. And yet, I have clinical depression that I haven't managed to pray away. Somehow, a little pill that brings things into balance increases my ability to see things clearly and to see and feel evidences of God's love. Depression muddles things and makes it harder. 

 

Do you believe you should deny treatment for diabetes, or cancer, or an infection? Should you just pray really hard?

[Guest intra]

Ah but see, as mods, we have a responsibility to make sure that the intent of our posters is good. You've been asked some legitimate questions to that end.

my intent is that God should be glorified above all things, lifting up the name of Jesus Christ as Lord, as is taught by all the scripture, prophets and apostles: 

If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

(1 Peter 4:11) 

i am sure that will step on the toes of the "all things" no matter how carefully i tread. 

[Guest intra]

Do you believe you should deny treatment for diabetes, or cancer, or an infection? Should you just pray really hard?

 

you are talking to a man who has recently given doctors many tens of thousands of dollars to repair and attend to his broken physical heart. i thank God that He put wisdom and knowledge in these doctor's minds, so i could be healed through them, and i receive my medicine with thanksgiving as it were a food, not thanking a pharmaceutical company but the God who made every thing on the earth. :) if you are asking whether my kids have smallpox vaccinations, yes.

the same apostle that said this: 

And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

(1 Thessalonians 3:12-13) 

told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake. 

notice that he says "the Lord make you to increase and abound in love" -- not wine -- but for a physical problem, he recommended a physical solution (though in other places he also says the sick should be anointed and prayed over -- i can only suppose that for Timothy, this was like Paul's own "thorn in the flesh" that he prayed to be removed but was answered that it should remain in order to humble him). he says the Lord making us to have this love in abundance shall establish our hearts. i cannot find anywhere in the scripture that one who does not have love should seek it anywhere but from God -- please show me if it is written and merely hid from me! 

so the question maybe we should be asking ourselves is whether a lack of love is a spiritual or a physical condition?

as per my first replies to this thread - i find so much in God to love, frankly to hear that someone does not love Him, it strikes me that perhaps they do not know Him?? so like i am continuing to say -- the first thing, the primary thing is to know and adore Jesus Christ, the very demonstration of God's love. 

[Just_A_Guy]

before i start helping you burn down strawmen, . . .

 

How is it a straw man?

 

Your answers so far (as I understand them), and the cherry-picked scriptural verses you have offered here, tend towards the argument that the love of God--without any additional "earthly means"--conquers all potential physiological and psychological afflictions that might tend towards making an individual unable to feel that love.

 

If that's not your position, then please clarify to me what your actual position is.  If it is your position, than my question is valid:  Has a person who feels the love of God only after receiving "earthly" medical or psychological treatment, put his faith in the arm of God or the arm of flesh?  Because if the former, then Eowyn's, FunkyTown's, and PolarVortex's answers were merely pointing to alternate means through which God extends His mercy and love; and you were wrong to dismissively reduce them to "humanist psychology, 'good things' and drugs".  If the latter, then your overall argument (at least, as I've hitherto interpreted it) is invalid; because in a case like the one I've mentioned it clearly does require additional "earthly means" to bring the supplicant in communion with God.

 

so the question maybe we should be asking ourselves is whether a lack of love is a spiritual or a physical condition?

 

Close; but I think the question could be more precisely worded as whether there are physical conditions that can keep us from feeling love (whether love from God/man, or love for God/man).  Romans 8:38-39 might be interpreted as saying "no"; and I'm interested to hear what you make of it.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest intra]

please clarify to me what your actual position is. 

please see post #34. 

the epistle to the Romans is wonderful! let's have a look: 

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Romans 8:38-39) 

hmm, notice where love is found: in Christ Jesus our Lord.

does this talk about whether things in heaven or earth can separate our love from God, or whether anything can separate God's love from us? in fact the apostle says nothing can separate God's love from us, in Christ Jesus, and never mentions "feelings" at all. he does not say "chemical imbalance can separate you from the love of God" or "intellectual confusion" or "your chakra" or "bad karma" can separate us. 

he says love is in Christ, and in Christ, nothing can separate us from love. does it not stand to reason that if a man does not have love, it is either that He is not in Christ, or that he actually has love, but simply doesn't recognize it? and if he does not recognize it, of whom should he be taught about love? surely, we ought to go to God, "casting all your anxieties upon Him, because He cares for you" 

God loves us whether we "feel" love for Him or not, if we are in Christ -- for "feelings" cannot separate us, but being outside of Christ surely can, because in Christ, love is found, so say the scriptures. 

this is good news for the OP! and how good of you to bring this up :) 

may i implore you once again to answer, with sound doctrine?

1. is love from God or from chemicals? 
2. admonishment to honor and praise Christ as Lord - is that from men or from God? 
3. does the one who hates his brother have love? 

what is LDS doctrine on these things? are they not the same as God's pure doctrine? i confess i am unlearned and ignorant in such matters. 

[Guest]

Your medical help came from God and you praise him for it, but if people seek help for chemical imbalance so that they can more clearly see and feel God's love and enjoy His blessings, we're praising the arm of man? 

 

So what we have here is a prejudice against mental illness, nothing more. 

[skalenfehl]

I regret my ambiguity on my initial post. I think the root of the problem is my inability to reconcile the intellectual knowledge with the visceral emotion.  I don't feel loved by God let alone by others. I don't know this emotion though I can observe it. Because of this I have resented God all my life. My mental image of God is that of the Norse god Odin; powerful yet aloof.  I feel nothing towards God, He is just there.  I have to refrain from sarcasm when others ask if I have prayed about this or imply that up to this point I have not made a concerted effort in obtaining what I seek.  Yes I have. It has been a lifelong pursuit. I guess that I bring up this topic hoping someone has this same situation in their life as has succeeded in obtaining Godly love and acceptance when they started not having this experience and I could learn from them.  Or maybe it is a quixotic quest on my part. Surely I can't be the only one with this experience?

 

My brother, I was born into and raised in a dysfunctional home by a father who ruled with an iron fist. I grew up learning fear, ridicule, and worthlessness. But my dad was born and raised in a far worse environment. He knew no love. I knew some. It took me years and years to overcome having zero self esteem and that was through faith. Faith in what? Faith in what my mother taught me about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith can only be gained and nurtured by experiment. But how knoweth a man the Master whom he has not served? I decided to serve a mission, though I knew a little about the gospel or the atonement of Jesus Christ. I just knew who Jesus Christ was and was familiar with a number of Bible stories and some Book of Mormon stories. 

 

It was on my mission that I decided to take a leap of faith. I pretended to be someone assertive and bold like maybe Ammon or Captain Moroni. It was the most surreal experiment of my life. I figured nobody knew who I was in a foreign country. I could be whoever I decided to become and nobody would know I was this scared boy. But I also began to experience the Lord's love. And as I incrementally learned more about Him and drew closer to Him, He drew closer to me. Today as I look back, had I not done so, I would have remained a mild, timid, fearful adult and far away from my God.

 

Since those days decades ago, having studied deeply our doctrine, I have not only experimented upon the word, I have gained a powerful understanding and knowledge of things, experienced things, and I have seen things. I have a deep love for my Savior and have experienced a portion of His love in my life. His love for us can overwhelm us. I believe that we cannot contain in the flesh all the love, which He has for us. I have felt to sing the song of redeeming love and I do so now even as I type this. He loves you more than you know. It's all there for the taking, one step at a time. He will teach you if you let Him. I promise. 

[Just_A_Guy]

he says love is in Christ, and in Christ, nothing can separate us from love. does it not stand to reason that if a man does not have love, it is either that He is not in Christ, or that he actually has love, but simply doesn't recognize it?

 

Okay; I think I understand you a bit more.  Going back to my hypothetical, then:  It sounds like your answer would be that the individual may well have had the love of God all along, but just doesn't recognize it.

 

Would you further agree that physical phenomena can prevent such a person from feeling God's love, but not from actually having the love itself?

 

If so, we're back to the fundamental question:  Has a person who feels the love of God only after receiving "earthly" medical or psychological treatment, put his faith in the arm of God or the arm of flesh? Because if the former, then Eowyn's, FunkyTown's, and PolarVortex's answers were merely pointing to alternate means through which God extends His mercy and love; and you were wrong to dismissively reduce them to "humanist psychology, 'good things' and drugs".  If the latter, then your overall argument (at least, as I've hitherto interpreted it) is invalid; because in a case like the one I've mentioned it clearly does require additional "earthly means" to bring the supplicant in communion with God.

 

 may i implore you once again to answer, with sound doctrine?

1. is love from God or from chemicals? 
2. admonishment to honor and praise Christ as Lord - is that from men or from God? 
3. does the one who hates his brother have love? 

what is LDS doctrine on these things? are they not the same as God's pure doctrine? i confess i am unlearned and ignorant in such matters.

 

Your questions, of course, try to reduce some complicated ideas to simple "yes" or "no" answers.  To give quick responses:

1.  True love, of course, originates with God.

2.  God (usually), but with caveats.

3.  Too deep for me.  I incline towards "no" (as, I think, James suggests--too lazy to look it up at the moment); but that creates a logical conundrum of as to how God Himself could have love, since the scriptures clearly say that He does hate.

 

But please understand, my primary interest here isn't answering leading questions (have you stopped beating your wife yet?).  Right now, I'm more interested in why you choose to belittle four forum members who offered practical suggestions in good faith (at least three of which were entirely rational and neither contradicted the scriptures nor diminished from Christ's healing power--as for the Chakra thing, I'm just not going there).

Edited December 14, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

pardon the observation --  i mean not to offend any person but to offend falsehood, as falsehood is offense to the Truth -

 

 

Before you call therapy falsehood perhaps you should read Jeffrey R. Holland's talk, The Broken Vessel.  

[Vort]

Before you call therapy falsehood perhaps you should read Jeffrey R. Holland's talk, The Broken Vessel.  

 

I gather that intra is not LDS, so I doubt Elder Holland's words would carry any particular weight with him.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I gather that intra is not LDS, so I doubt Elder Holland's words would carry any particular weight with him.

 

Oh, thanks Vort.  I really should pay more attention.

 

My apologies to Intra.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

pardon the observation --  i mean not to offend any person but to offend falsehood, as falsehood is offense to the Truth -- but Hindu mysticism, humanist psychology, "good things" and drugs? 

is this LDS doctrine on the source of love? is Jesus Christ not of any avail?

 

Yes, of course, Jesus Christ is our center.  But He expects us to do somethings for ourselves.  He doesn't put food on our tables, or clothing in our closets.  When we are sick, He expects us to pray for healing, but also to go to the doctor.  And sometimes He expects us to get therapy.  (I don't know anything about chakras...so I can't speak about that.)

 

One of my favorite quotes is this one by Dr. Richard Mollica.  "Every human being is born with the strength to heal. No amount of violence or torture can destroy that capacity. No barbarism or savagery can crush the ability to recover and rebuild."   He is the director and co-founder of the Harvard Refugee Program.  Over many years he has worked with survivors of rape, war, genocide, all kinds of unspeakable violence.  And he believes everyone can be healed.  I believe he helps his patients with therapy and medication.  I'm sure Christ's hand is in the healing as well, but Dr. Mollica doesn't know that.  

 

Christ in His abundant love has given us many ways to heal.

[Sharon25]

God gives time for each nation or person for that matter to repent.

[Guest intra]

1.  True love, of course, originates with God.

 

then this doctrine that i bring, that love is of God, not chemicals or human logic, is true. indeed the scriptures say the same thing: 

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. 

(1 John 4:7) 

and 

We love because he first loved us.

(1 John 4:19) 

i know i am of God's true reformed church, because my message is the same as the revelation of scripture: 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart

and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways submit to him,

and he will make your paths straight.

(Proverbs 3:5-6) 

i don't accept the testimony of men, but have in me the testimony of the Holy Spirit. as your prophet Joseph Smith said, every new revelation must agree with old revelation, or it is necessarily false. so if i hold up the words of men to the scriptures to see if they are true, and i in every thing encourage us to honor Jesus Christ the Son and God the Father - saying that this is the source of love - i do the will of God, as your scriptures attest, and as you admit. 

why do you find it more necessary to challenge me, if i bear the name of Jesus Christ, and do the work of God, reminding you to honor and acknowledge Him  -- than to correct one who bears the name "LDS" and encourages people to turn to other gods, to Hindu gods that none of you accept? shouldn't the job of the admins be to correct people who say "work on your chakras" instead of to sit in judgement on one who says "seek God" ? 

 

 

 

3.  Too deep for me.  I incline towards "no" (as, I think, James suggests--too lazy to look it up at the moment); but that creates a logical conundrum of as to how God Himself could have love, since the scriptures clearly say that He does hate.

if you are unwilling or unable, then i will search the scriptures for you. the scriptures are the Words of Life -- let me love you, by bringing them to your mind, if for some reason you will not search them yourself. "if anyone lacks understanding, let Him ask God, who gives liberally" -- this, James said. and this, 'the apostle whom Jesus loved' said: 

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.

For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen,

cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

(1 John 4:20) 

thank God that He has made the deep things plain to us! if you love Jesus Christ, i am your brother, because i call Him Lord and remind you to do the same. if then you hate me for it, you are a liar - so saith the apostle, and his word is true. 

as to how that God can hate: 

The LORD trieth the righteous:

but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

(Psalm 11:5) 

now is the wicked and the lover of violence the brother of the righteous? of course not. "what fellowship has light with darkness?" as Christ called the Pharisees who accused Him "sons of their father the devil" the wicked have not the same father as the Father of the righteous. 

so God does not sin to hate the wicked; He manifests justice and holiness in this, because as the scriptures testify: 

To fear the LORD is to hate evil;

I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

(Proverbs 8:13) 

therefore His witnesses agree: 

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,

for he guards the lives of his faithful ones

and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

(Psalm 97:10) 

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

(Romans 12:9) 

as the example God has given to men, we must love mercy and justice, and hate false balances and false accusations. 

if i then am set against teaching that is contrary to the Word of God, the testimony we have received, i love what is good and hate what is evil. and i do not accuse or condemn people, but spiritual powers and principalities, because what i seek to tear down is whatever would exalt itself against Christ Jesus, the King of Glory, who alone is worthy of praise!!

as the scripture again testifies: 

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

(2 Corinthians 10:3-5) 

no prophet of men is of any worth - if any man prophecies by men he glorifies men. 

but if i bring you the words that are from God and do the will and the work of God, i do not glorify men, but glorify God. 

if i glorify God, and God alone, then i am of His true church, His reformed church, and i am His witness to you. He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice. 

EDIT: fixed spelling mistake

Edited December 16, 2014 by intra

[pam]

Putting my admin hat on.  Keep in mind that this forum is LDS discussion. Therefore all posts should be what we, as LDS, believe.  This isn't a forum to debate what we believe.

[Guest intra]

Putting my admin hat on.  Keep in mind that this forum is LDS discussion. Therefore all posts should be what we, as LDS, believe.  This isn't a forum to debate what we believe.

this is what the LDS believes: 

 

We love and revere the Bible. The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our “standard works.”

(quoted from https://www.lds.org/topics/bible?lang=eng)

i would think then, that if someone were to point to the Bible, do what the Bible teaches, and justifies every word He speaks from the Bible, that it is in keeping with the true Church of Jesus Christ.

do let me know if LDS doctrine is that the Bible is not scripture or that the children of God should not speak and teach from it. if that is so, i have been misinformed! 

[pam]

 

this is what the LDS believes: 

 

We love and revere the Bible. The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our “standard works.”

(quoted from https://www.lds.org/topics/bible?lang=eng)

i would think then, that if someone were to point to the Bible, do what the Bible teaches, and justifies every word He speaks from the Bible, that it is in keeping with the true Church of Jesus Christ.

do let me know if LDS doctrine is that the Bible is not scripture or that the children of God should not speak and teach from it. if that is so, i have been misinformed! 

 

 

We certainly believe in the Bible.  We teach from it and we believe it to be scripture.

[Guest intra]

We certainly believe in the Bible.  We teach from it and we believe it to be scripture.

good!!   :) 

then i am justified to say this: 

 

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. 

(1 John 4:7) 

and to say this: 

 

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.

For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen,

cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

(1 John 4:20) 

and to proclaim this: 

 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart

and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways submit to him,

and he will make your paths straight.

(Proverbs 3:5-6) 

and this is perfectly in keeping with the doctrine of Christ's true ekklesia!

:)  

Edited December 17, 2014 by intra