Exaltation Implications

[JimmiGerman]

I suppose there are a few clarifications I should make here on Catholic dogma.

 

 

 

First: I'm not very much interested in debating the dogma of your church.

 

Second:  I mean all the crimes, i.e. the "crusade" against the Albingensers  in South France around the year 1200. Pope Innozenz III. himself initiated the "crusade" against those Gnostics in South France, because in the eyes of your church they were heretics, and I would like to call it back to your memory that alone in the town of Béziers on Juli 22, in the year 1209, more than 20.000 (!) people, men, women, children, had been brutally massacred. That was the first European genozid, in this case against a Christian community.

 

But that was only the prelude to further greater things innitiated by your church: the inquisition. And in the course of the centuries thousands and thousands of innocent women and men became their victims. That institution, claiming they are Christians, has been an institution that should be hold responsible for uncountable crimes against humans and the humanity by the centuries.

Edited February 1, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Guest]

C'mon German Engineer... We're trying to keep this thread fantastic!

Claire started the thread because she wants to know what we believe on xyz. Let's keep it there instead of pointing out how terrible you think her church is.

Vin danken dir, my friend. <3.

[JimmiGerman]

C'mon German Engineer... We're trying to keep this thread fantastic!

Claire started the thread because she wants to know what we believe on xyz. Let's keep it there instead of pointing out how terrible you think her church is.

Vin danken dir, my friend. <3.

 

 

-first post deleted, Jimmi-

 

All right, but I couldn't stop myself to mention it.

Edited February 1, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Guest]

Yea, so it was my last stroke here. But it had to be said. I'll leave you alone and won't appear in this thread any more.

No, no... Don't disappear. Just try to stay on topic. Claire is fantastic.

[Guest]

Duplicate.

Edited January 29, 2015 by anatess

[Claire]

 

First: I'm absolutely not interested in debating the dogma of your church. This is not the reason why I'm here in these forums. There is nothing you can give me, no advice, no faith, no truth. It's all a devlish talking. And this will be my last posting in this thread and my last answer given to you. And Brigham Young was right when he once said (in JoD, here paraphrased), that if you make only one step in direction to your church, you might be standing with one leg in hell.

 

Second: I'm definetaly not talking only about the Spanish inquisition, but about all the crimes and mass murders, beginning with the "crusade" against the Albingensers  in South France around the year 1200. Pope Innozenz III. himself initiated the "crusade" against the Albingensers (Gnostics) in South France, because in his eyes they were heretics, and I would like to call it back to your memory that alone in the town of Béziers on Juli 22, in the year 1209, more than 20.000 (!) people, men, women, children, had been brutally massacred. That was the first European genozid, in this case against a Christian community.

 

But that was only the prelude to further greater things innitiated by your abominable church: the inquisition. And in the course of the centuries thousands and thousands of innocent women and men became their victims. That institution, claiming they are Christians, has been nothing else but an institution murdering by the centuries.

 

Besides, the Dominicans did themselves very much out that way. Today they live peacefully in a cloister somewhere in South Germany, and they were giving apologizes on their website, and they admitted they were wrong etc., in the way of  "sorry, we once have been murderes, but it's long ago...". But that's not enough. For me your church is a terrorist organisation, and the sexual abuses of your homosexual "priests" and their hidden orgies in Rome and somewhere else, as another example, are speaking an own language.

 

And God Allmighty will not forget. God never forgets, even if they hope so much that time will cover their unbelievable and most awful crimes - and these are my words: may God curse your institution and throw their false priests into the Outer Darkness. and may they be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan eternally.  Amen.

 

 

 

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

- Doctrine & Covenants 64:10

 

Even murderers, false priests, fornicators, ect.

[JimmiGerman]

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

- Doctrine & Covenants 64:10

 

Even murderers, false priests, fornicators, ect.

 

Then see Doctrine & Covenants  64:7  (what you surely have at your hands by chance ...it depends on the deed).

Edited January 29, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Guest]

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

- Doctrine & Covenants 64:10

Even murderers, false priests, fornicators, ect.

Wait, what? You can quote D&C? Whoa... I am thoroughly impressed!

You, Claire, are one brilliant chap...

[Claire]

Then see Doctrine & Covenants  64:7  (what you surely have at your hands by chance ...it depends on the deed)

 

" Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death."

 

God may or may not forgive them. He has more information than we do, and He will make that call. We, you and me and everybody else on this Earth, don't get to make that call. We have to forgive everybody, period. I think at minimum that would include not praying for their damnation.

 

Wait, what? You can quote D&C? Whoa... I am thoroughly impressed!

You, Claire, are one brilliant chap...

 

You date an LDS guy long enough, you pick up a few things

 

It's a good quote.

[JimmiGerman]

" Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death."

 

God may or may not forgive them. He has more information than we do, and He will make that call. We, you and me and everybody else on this Earth, don't get to make that call. We have to forgive everybody, period. I think at minimum that would include not praying for their damnation.

 

 

D & C  42:18

Edited January 29, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[JimmiGerman]

-deleted- Jimmi.

Edited January 31, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Guest]

You date an LDS guy long enough, you pick up a few things

 

It's a good quote.

 

Ooooohhh!!!  Now I see! 

[Claire]

 

 D & C  42:18 

 

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

 

From the looks of it, verses 1-17 were addressed specifically to the elders in the Church, with verse 18 representing a transition to the Church at large (hence saying "And now, behold, I speak unto the church.")

 

I would then say that the commandments as outlined in verses 18+ are directed specifically to the Church, and I'm fairly certain LDS doctrine would not include Catholics in that group. In other words, these commandments don't seem like they would apply to non-LDS.

 

Further, Joseph would still have been talking specifically to the elders at this point, albeit about the church at large. This is significant because it seems to mean that the Church won't forgive murderers. This would seem to have no bearing our individual responsibility to forgive. 

[The Folk Prophet]

 

 

 

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

 

From the looks of it, verses 1-17 were addressed specifically to the elders in the Church, with verse 18 representing a transition to the Church at large (hence saying "And now, behold, I speak unto the church.")

 

I would then say that the commandments as outlined in verses 18+ are directed specifically to the Church, and I'm fairly certain LDS doctrine would not include Catholics in that group. In other words, these commandments don't seem like they would apply to non-LDS.

 

Further, Joseph would still have been talking specifically to the elders at this point, albeit about the church at large. This is significant because it seems to mean that the Church won't forgive murderers. This would seem to have no bearing our individual responsibility to forgive. 

 

 

This is correct. D&C 42:18 has no bearing on the commandment we have been given to forgive others.

[Vort]

 

 

 

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

 

From the looks of it, verses 1-17 were addressed specifically to the elders in the Church, with verse 18 representing a transition to the Church at large (hence saying "And now, behold, I speak unto the church.")

 

I would then say that the commandments as outlined in verses 18+ are directed specifically to the Church, and I'm fairly certain LDS doctrine would not include Catholics in that group. In other words, these commandments don't seem like they would apply to non-LDS.

 

Further, Joseph would still have been talking specifically to the elders at this point, albeit about the church at large. This is significant because it seems to mean that the Church won't forgive murderers. This would seem to have no bearing our individual responsibility to forgive. 

 

I agree with your reading and interpretation, except for the bolded part, for which I have two comments:

1. The Church doesn't forgive anyone. Only God forgives. The Church is a vehicle for the gospel and for the administration of God's kingdom, and not in any case a proxy for God.
2. The First Presidency has authority to determine the will of God in such matters. Such a case would likely not be cut-and-dried, so the First Presidency could prayerfully determine how to proceed.

[Claire]

 

I agree with your reading and interpretation, except for the bolded part, for which I have two comments:

1. The Church doesn't forgive anyone. Only God forgives. The Church is a vehicle for the gospel and for the administration of God's kingdom, and not in any case a proxy for God.
2. The First Presidency has authority to determine the will of God in such matters. Such a case would likely not be cut-and-dried, so the First Presidency could prayerfully determine how to proceed.

 

 

Good points, Vort. I'm obviously not an expert in LDS Church administration, so I'm not really familiar with how sins of that nature are actually handled. Thanks for enlightening me!

[The Folk Prophet]

 

I agree with your reading and interpretation, except for the bolded part, for which I have two comments:

1. The Church doesn't forgive anyone. Only God forgives. The Church is a vehicle for the gospel and for the administration of God's kingdom, and not in any case a proxy for God.
2. The First Presidency has authority to determine the will of God in such matters. Such a case would likely not be cut-and-dried, so the First Presidency could prayerfully determine how to proceed.

 

 

To be fair, the usage of the word "forgive" in the context of these scriptures can well be read as "accept", in that vs. 25 reads: "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;"

 

If the church cannot forgive, then why the command to the church to forgive upon repentance?

[Vort]

Very reasonable point, TFP. I suppose I interpret "the Church" in your example to mean the Church membership as a body, and not the Church as an ecclesiastical organization.

[JimmiGerman]

Very reasonable point, TFP. I suppose I interpret "the Church" in your example to mean the Church membership as a body, and not the Church as an ecclesiastical organization.

 

Objection, Your Honour, the defendant is trying to confuse the jury with word games.

[Vort]

Objection, Your Honour, the defendant is trying to confuse the jury with word games.

 

:) I meant only that when the Church is commanded to forgive, I take that to mean that each member of the Church is obliged to forgive the offense in his or her heart and not hold a grudge over it. I don't take it to mean that the formal organization of the Church somehow grants divine pardon.

[JimmiGerman]

:) I meant only that when the Church is commanded to forgive, I take that to mean that each member of the Church is obliged to forgive the offense in his or her heart and not hold a grudge over it. I don't take it to mean that the formal organization of the Church somehow grants divine pardon.

 

Objection rejected. The defendant has stated plausible reasons.

Edited January 29, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[bytebear]

• Doctrine and Covenants 64:10

  10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

[Claire]

 

• Doctrine and Covenants 64:10

  10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you didn't read back to the post that stated the sidebar on forgiveness...

 

 

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

- Doctrine & Covenants 64:10

 

Even murderers, false priests, fornicators, ect.

 

[bytebear]

Nope, just caught up on the last page.  But I did read through the D&C under "forgive" and the Lord, very often predicates His forgiveness on our willingness to forgive.  Clearly, the ability to truly forgive is a necessary attribute for our salvation.

[Guest]

Nope, just caught up on the last page. But I did read through the D&C under "forgive" and the Lord, very often predicates His forgiveness on our willingness to forgive. Clearly, the ability to truly forgive is a necessary attribute for our salvation.

Yes. And the must-pass science lab course to that is the Marriage.