Remorse, Guilt & Shame, what are they?

[stephen9410813]

I have tried studying the meaning of guilt, remorse and shame but am failing to grasp the actual meaning of these words. I don't experience these emotions personally so am looking for a simplistic answer. Not experiencing these emotions doesn't make me a bad person, as I really do believe with guidance I can change. I want to change, I just don't fully understand how I am supposed to feel something when nobody ever explains what these emotions actually feel like, even in the sense of them being a physical pain. Any help in understanding these emotions would be greatly appreciated as I feel it would give me a better understanding of myself and also give me the knowledge to be able to understand how to change my own life.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I like Brene Brown's definitions of guilt and shame.  She says (paraphrased)

 

Guilt = I did something bad.

 

Shame = I AM bad.

 

So guilt is useful, but shame is not.  I haven't really studied it, but I think sometimes the scriptures use guilt, shame and remorse interchangeably though.  

 

What it feels like...it feels bad.  Really bad.  The worse you feel, the more you want to change so you can feel better.

 

For example, imagine that you say something really hurtful to someone you care about because you are angry.  It is normal to feel bad after doing something like that.  That feeling is part of what moves you to apologize and try to make things right.  

Edited January 16, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Crypto]

Have you ever felt embarrassed, bad, or depressed? Remorse is when you feel bad for doing something, such as harming another person. Guilt is like being embarrassed, but not quite so anxious but depressed and I'll/bad. Have you ever felt these or other emotions? You might consider seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist, especially if you have problems interacting emotionally with other people, and lack of such emotions causes disruptions in others and your life. This may be indicative of an illness, you would have to see a professional to find out.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Crypto

[Guest MormonGator]

One of my favorite quotes on guilt comes from Christopher Hitchens.

 

"It's always interesting when someone never feels any guilt or shame, and it's never a good sign." 

[Vort]

I like Brene Brown's definitions of guilt and shame.  She says (paraphrased)

 

Guilt = I did something bad.

 

Shame = I AM bad.

 

So guilt is useful, but shame is not.

 

But what if you are bad? Isn't that useful to know?

[The Folk Prophet]

...guilt, remorse and shame... Not experiencing these emotions...

 

If you honestly are incapable of feeling guilt, remorse or shame then it highly suggests emotional or mental disorders along the lines of sociopath, etc. 

 

You are telling us that you have never, ever, in your entire life, felt bad about doing something? Anything? Really?

 

If that is truly the case...seek professional help! Immediately.

Edited January 16, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

But what if you are bad? Isn't that useful to know?

 

 

I suppose it depends.  Could you give me an example of what you mean?  In what circumstance would a person be bad as opposed to having done something bad?

[Vort]

I suppose it depends.  Could you give me an example of what you mean?  In what circumstance would a person be bad as opposed to having done something bad?

 

I will answer you, but first, in order to understand your question and mindset, I ask you the same question: Will you please give me some example of a bad person, and not merely a person who has acted badly?

[jerome1232]

I suppose it depends.  Could you give me an example of what you mean?  In what circumstance would a person be bad as opposed to having done something bad?

But shame doesn't actually mean that. Shame is a feeling brought on by behavior.

--    Jerome1232 was ashamed he picked his nose, so he hid from the party as he enjoyed his boogers. When LiterateParakeet walked in as Jerome1232 was reaching in deep for a good one, Jerome1232 fled the building in shame. How humiliating!"

Guilt is different though, I can be guilty and ashamed of picking my nose, I could be guilty but not ashamed of picking my nose.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

But shame doesn't actually mean that. Shame is a feeling brought on by behavior.

 

I mentioned in my first post that I was using Dr. Brene Brown's definition.  She is a researcher who has specialized in understanding shame.  According to her definition, it means I am bad.  

 

To me, what you are describing is being embarrassed.  That's not the same as feeling like you are a bad person.

Edited January 16, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[jerome1232]

I mentioned in my first post that I was using Dr. Brene Brown's definition.  She is a researcher who has specialized in understanding shame.  According to her definition, it means that. 

Well humbug to Dr. Brene Brown. I disagree and will retreat from the conversation then

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Well humbug to Dr. Brene Brown. I disagree and will retreat from the conversation then

 

No need to retreat, you can stay and discuss with others.  :)

[Crypto]

If you honestly are incapable of feeling guilt, remorse or shame then it highly suggests emotional or mental disorders along the lines of sociopath, etc. 

 

You are telling us that you have never, ever, in your entire life, felt bad about doing something? Anything? Really?

 

If that is truly the case...seek professional help! Immediately.

It could also be along the lines of being borderline.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I will answer you, but first, in order to understand your question and mindset, I ask you the same question: Will you please give me some example of a bad person, and not merely a person who has acted badly?

 

Ok. I can't give that question, because all the examples I can think of are about people acting badly.  I will explain more clearly what I mean about feeling shame and acting badly being different though.

While shame is something most people, if not everyone, experiences.  But my experience with shame has been as a survivor.  I felt tremendous shame...that I was bad, not worthy to go to the temple or even speak, teach or pray in church.  And yet, I had done nothing wrong.

 

In a less extreme example, a child scolded by a parent for doing something wrong might mis-interpret that to mean there is something fundamentally wrong with him/her--which would not be the case.

[Vort]

Ok. I can't give that question, because all the examples I can think of are about people acting badly.  I will explain more clearly what I mean about feeling shame and acting badly being different though.

While shame is something most people, if not everyone, experiences.  But my experience with shame has been as a survivor.  I felt tremendous shame...that I was bad, not worthy to go to the temple or even speak, teach or pray in church.  And yet, I had done nothing wrong.

 

In a less extreme example, a child scolded by a parent for doing something wrong might mis-interpret that to mean there is something fundamentally wrong with him/her--which would not be the case.

 

So then, is it the case that you do not believe there are any bad people, but only people who act badly?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

So then, is it the case that you do not believe there are any bad people, but only people who act badly?

 

Isn't it your turn to answer the question now?  

 

But ok, about your question, I don't know, I'm still pondering it.  I asked myself is the person who abused me "bad" or just acting badly?  Good question.  My knee jerk reaction because I am still angry with him is yes he bad through and through.  But there is another part of me that says I don't know why he did the things he did.  And that it's not my place to judge him, I can leave that to the Lord to deal with.  

Was Hitler bad?  Paul Harvey said he was heavily medicated on brain altering drugs...

 

I just really can't decide at this point.  Satan is bad.  But other than that...it feels like when I call someone bad, I'm saying they are beyond the reach of the Atonement, and I just can't say that about anyone.

 

Your turn.

[Vort]

I suppose it depends.  Could you give me an example of what you mean?  In what circumstance would a person be bad as opposed to having done something bad?

 

A person is bad when s/he persists in doing something s/he knows is wrong, even (or especially) to the point that s/he no longer thinks it's wrong. The scriptures refer to such people as "wicked".

 

Scriptural examples of bad (wicked) people include:

• Laman
• Lemuel
• Sherem
• Korihor
• Amalikiah
• Alma the younger
• Zeezrom
• Corianton
• Martin Harris

Note that at least the last four people on the above list repented of their wickedness, and we have no reason to believe they will not receive the blessings of exaltation. But that does not mean they weren't bad people. They were.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think the hang up comes from feeling like defining someone as bad sets them as permanently so. It's not the case however. LP, for example, when you were abused, the person abusing was bad. Unquestionably. But is he/she still bad? Has he/she repented? Can he/she repent? Yes. If they have or do, they are no longer bad.

 

A bad person is someone who does bad things (we'll throw in "intentionally and knowing better to cover agency"). They cannot be seperated. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, etc....

[Guest]

To answer the OP, I think remorse is the "highest" of those feelings. Remorse to me means that you recognize that your actions caused someone else pain or harm, and you feel deep regret for that and wish you could change it. Remorse is what drives us to sincere repentance and change. Not that you're anticipating consequences (guilt) or afraid someone will know/find out what you did (shame), but that you truly wish you could change having hurt someone else.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Vort and TFP, I think you are both right.

 

But (there's always a but, LOL!)  I think we are talking about different things....different parts of the elephant if you will.  I can agree with what you said, but my point is more about people that feel that they are "bad", but are not.  The undeserved shame...

[The Folk Prophet]

Vort and TFP, I think you are both right.

 

But (there's always a but, LOL!)  I think we are talking about different things....different parts of the elephant if you will.  I can agree with what you said, but my point is more about people that feel that they are "bad", but are not.  The undeserved shame...

 

I think that is an interesting subject. It's quite trendy to treat shame or guilt as oppressive and something that we shouldn't feel even when we've made mistakes. Then, of course, a very contrasting idea that guilt and shame are good motivators. This idea is quite unpopular in today's "everyone is a victim" world. However, the reality is that both ideas are valid and there has to be balance. It is mistaken to treat guilt as something forced upon us by an oppressive church or judgmental people. Feeling sorrow for sin is a requirement of repentance. But, as you point out, there are those who judge themselves unfairly in the matter. I worry about the common p.o.v. that we should never feel these things for our wrong behavior. It's too eat-drink-and-be-merry for my tastes. But I acknowledge, as well, that there are those who suffer needlessly -- a great many who do -- by imposing guilt upon themselves when they need not.

 

I expect you and I fall on opposite sides of the spectrum on the matter, but ultimately agree in general principle.

 

As to the variance in definition of shame, guilt, remorse idea...sure...that's one way to look at it. If it's helpful to look at it that way, sure. But it's not a universally held idea or understanding of what it means to feel these things. When I sin in ways that I know I shouldn't have I feel shame. And that, to me, is good. It requires me to humble myself in coming to God for forgiveness. But I also think my feelings, for the most part, are fairly balanced from an emotional and mental stability angle. I feel shame, but not beyond what I should.

 

Therefore, I don't know that it's necessarily the best idea to treat the words and their definitions as if one is good to feel, the other bad, or anything like that. But rather, to treat the idea that feeling shame, guilt, or remorse, beyond what you should, is based in emotional or mental unhealthiness and whatever appropriate course is required to correct that response should be pursued.

 

If we are guilty, we should feel guilt. But not beyond what we are guilty of. If we have done something shameful, we should feel shame, but not for things we haven't done, need not be doing, or are otherwise unaccountable for. Nor should we feel shame for unfair judgments by others and/or the like. But our shame should be to our Father in Heaven. If we are remorseful for sin, it is good. It is required as part of repentance. But to feel remorse beyond what we should is not healthy either.

[Vort]

I can agree with what you said, but my point is more about people that feel that they are "bad", but are not.  The undeserved shame...

 

But if people aren't bad, then by definition the term "bad" doesn't apply to them, no matter what they think. Which is utterly beside the point.

 

As I originally asked: What if you are bad? Then is it bad to think that you're bad? I don't think it is. I think it's a very good thing. If you don't know you're bad, or if you refuse to admit it, you cannot repent.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think that is an interesting subject. It's quite trendy to treat shame or guilt as oppressive and something that we shouldn't feel even when we've made mistakes. Then, of course, a very contrasting idea that guilt and shame are good motivators. This idea is quite unpopular in today's "everyone is a victim" 

 

It may be, but that isn't what I am talking about.  I said Guilt means I did something bad.  Shame means I am bad.

 

Guilt is a good thing.  It motivates us to change and repent.

 

Shame...I guess it would be good if you are truly a bad person...but then I put that back in the guilt category.  There are people who feel shame that shouldn't that was my point.  

So I see guilt as a good motivator, but shame as damaging.

 

It is mistaken to treat guilt as something forced upon us by an oppressive church or judgmental people. Feeling sorrow for sin is a requirement of repentance. But, as you point out, there are those who judge themselves unfairly in the matter. I worry about the common p.o.v. that we should never feel these things for our wrong behavior. It's too eat-drink-and-be-merry for my tastes. But I acknowledge, as well, that there are those who suffer needlessly -- a great many who do -- by imposing guilt upon themselves when they need not.

 

I expect you and I fall on opposite sides of the spectrum on the matter, but ultimately agree in general principle.

 

 

I can't tell if you are just speaking about this in general, or if you think that is what I was trying to say.  To clarify--I agree with you. 

 

As to the variance in definition of shame, guilt, remorse idea...sure...that's one way to look at it. If it's helpful to look at it that way, sure. But it's not a universally held idea or understanding of what it means to feel these things.

 

 

I agree.  That's why I made a point to share the definition I was working under and where I got that idea (Brene Brown).  There are so many english words that we use casually and assume we are all talking about the same thing, when in fact those words can mean very different things to different people.

 

But I also think my feelings, for the most part, are fairly balanced from an emotional and mental stability angle. I feel shame, but not beyond what I should.

 

 

Are you saying I'm not emotional and mentally stable?  Don't worry, I'm just kidding.  I know what you meant.

 

Therefore, I don't know that it's necessarily the best idea to treat the words and their definitions as if one is good to feel, the other bad, or anything like that. But rather, to treat the idea that feeling shame, guilt, or remorse, beyond what you should, is based in emotional or mental unhealthiness and whatever appropriate course is required to correct that response should be pursued.

 

 

I partially agree with this.  I think it depends on where the conversation is taking place.  I mean generally speaking, even Brene Brown might agree with you, but for the purposes of her books--which are about shame that is based on emotional or mental unhealthiness which we all experience to some degree--it makes things clearer and more precise to define them as she did.  Since I spend a lot of time talking to or writing for fellow survivors I find Brene's definitions helpful as well.  But I also understand that your definition would be the more commonly understood at church.

 

If we are guilty, we should feel guilt. But not beyond what we are guilty of. If we have done something shameful, we should feel shame, but not for things we haven't done, need not be doing, or are otherwise unaccountable for. Nor should we feel shame for unfair judgments by others and/or the like. But our shame should be to our Father in Heaven. If we are remorseful for sin, it is good. It is required as part of repentance. But to feel remorse beyond what we should is not healthy either.

 

 

I agree.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

But if people aren't bad, then by definition the term "bad" doesn't apply to them, no matter what they think. Which is utterly beside the point.

 

As I originally asked: What if you are bad? Then is it bad to think that you're bad? I don't think it is. I think it's a very good thing. If you don't know you're bad, or if you refuse to admit it, you cannot repent.

 

I agree with you, but I was talking about good people who feel they are bad/wicked when they are not.  

[Vort]

I have at times felt heartily ashamed of myself, and for good reason. I thank God that I have the ability to feel intense shame when I have acted shamefully. Whatever my many failings, I am a better person today than I would be without feeling shame.