Lds Theologians Engaging Evangelicals

[prisonchaplain]

I found this article, about LDS theologians Millet and Robinson, quite interesting--especially the latter part, about what LDS do not believe the apostasy means.

I'm just posting this link for open comments. My sense is that it is an LDS site. http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04...s-of-steve.html

[the Ogre]

I found this article, about LDS theologians Millet and Robinson, quite interesting--especially the latter part, about what LDS do not believe the apostasy means.

I'm just posting this link for open comments. My sense is that it is an LDS site. http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04...s-of-steve.html

So then,

What is the LDS belief regarding the apostasy?

Aaron the Ogre

[Brother Dorsey]

I found this article, about LDS theologians Millet and Robinson, quite interesting--especially the latter part, about what LDS do not believe the apostasy means.

I'm just posting this link for open comments. My sense is that it is an LDS site. http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04...s-of-steve.html

Robinson's book "Believing Christ" is exceptional....for all Christians.....

[prisonchaplain]

So then,

What is the LDS belief regarding the apostasy?

Aaron the Ogre

He doesn't think I know the answer. But I do! B)

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu...0004d82620a____

[the Ogre]

<div class='quotemain'>

So then,

What is the LDS belief regarding the apostasy?

Aaron the Ogre

He doesn't think I know the answer. But I do! B)

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu...0004d82620a____

Good to know you know where to find it on the web, but what is the linked site saying?

[prisonchaplain]

Good to know you know where to find it on the web, but what is the linked site saying?

The two great losses of the Great Apostasy, according to lds.org, are "the principles of the gospel" and priesthood authority. I'll confess that the first part is a bit vague to me, but, I would take it to mean that the churches had skewed some important gospel teachings. The second part is that non-LDS churches are unauthorized to carry out the ordinances of God's church. So, to combine the opinions of the two LDS theologians with this quote from the Church's official website: non-LDS Christians retain some godly truths and practices, but lack God's authorization to fully function spiritually, and are missing some precious truths.

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

Good to know you know where to find it on the web, but what is the linked site saying?

The two great losses of the Great Apostasy, according to lds.org, are "the principles of the gospel" and priesthood authority. I'll confess that the first part is a bit vague to me, but, I would take it to mean that the churches had skewed some important gospel teachings. The second part is that non-LDS churches are unauthorized to carry out the ordinances of God's church. So, to combine the opinions of the two LDS theologians with this quote from the Church's official website: non-LDS Christians retain some godly truths and practices, but lack God's authorization to fully function spiritually, and are missing some precious truths.

Hey PC,

I would amend the statement "authorization to fully function spiritually" to "do not have the authority to act in God's name", take that however you want. That basically is the PH authority, our at least the way I have been taught it. PH authority is the ability to act in God's name in administering essential ordinances, such as baptism, the sacrament, confirmation and bestowing the Gift of the HG, blessings of healing, temple ordinances, etc.

Then, of course, while we agree on some stuff, on others we don't (and some of those are major), such as the "makeup" of the Godhead (3-in-one or 3 individuals with one purpose), baptism for the dead, the whole plan of salvation (pre-existence, purpose of life here on earth, after life), necessity of a temple, etc.

I have long been of the opinion, and it just strengthens more daily, that if everyone, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, whether Protestant, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist, etc., would follow the teachings of their religion as they should (excepting Islam, where a radical sect has hijacked it to be violent) this world would be much, much better. There would be love for each other and peace would be the norm rather than the exception (or extinct, as it is now!), and we would then be debating the differences in beliefs in a whole different way. Respect would abound and it would be "live and let live", rather than the harshness that abounds today, with some Christians calling us a cult, some of ours saying similar things, Christians against Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and vice versa, and contention everywhere instead of healthy debate and learning.

Just MO...

[the Ogre]

The two great losses of the Great Apostasy, according to lds.org, are "the principles of the gospel" and priesthood authority. I'll confess that the first part is a bit vague to me, but, I would take it to mean that the churches had skewed some important gospel teachings. The second part is that non-LDS churches are unauthorized to carry out the ordinances of God's church. So, to combine the opinions of the two LDS theologians with this quote from the Church's official website: non-LDS Christians retain some godly truths and practices, but lack God's authorization to fully function spiritually, and are missing some precious truths.

PC,

Thanks for the response, I appreciate. I was being a bit strong, I apologize. I was a bit frustrated, though. I think if someone knew the basis of LDS thought regarding the apostasy, then why the drawn out discussion of last week. The deafness I was and am referring has to do with: the truth (regarding LDS belief) is available in clear language, so why then is the discussion?

Is it a type of baiting, I sometimes wonder? I don't know. I dislike it when I get beat over the head with our (LDS) supposed ignorance. One way there is a type proof of apostasy is the lack of unity or lack of interest in unity and also the actual reformation (why did it happen at all if everything in the Catholic Church was correct?).

Sure, I don't memorize large tracts of scripture like many people do, but I do know what it is that The L-rd teaches as the gospel.

I think if there is going to be some type of question of LDS theology, shouldn't it come from within instead of being crammed down our throats by people who do not generally even think we are Christians regardless of the evidence or truth-claims otherwise?

It is just frustrating. Sorry if I came across so strongly.

Aaron the Ogre

[prisonchaplain]

Aaron, I've met more LDS in the last year (yes...at the jail--new volunteers, and some inmates) than in the previous 42 years of my existence. Prior to these last several months, the only LDS folk I've had any interaction with were right here. And, prior to that, it was mostly information I'd garnered from antagonistic sources (Walter Martin, etc.).

What I've learned in the last two years, through various conversations, is that so many LDS, like yourself, have been poorly treated by those from my religious camp. Further, that LDS theology is complex and different--not ignorant.

So, you won't often get "amens" from me, but I hope you'll sense the respect I have for the many thoughtful posters here, who are willing to share their experiences, opinions, and understandings, as well as to try to understand mine.

As for who's ultimately right and who's in need of converting or change...the Holy Spirit does so well at changing hearts and minds--I doubt anybody here is looking to take over that job. :-)

[Snow]

What I've learned in the last two years, through various conversations, is that so many LDS, like yourself, have been poorly treated by those from my religious camp.

Yes - and I demand reparations. I'd like a new cold air intake and exhaust system for my new CTS.

Btw, a couple weeks ago I went to a Mariner Church for a "Mormon and Evangelical in Dialogue"

A dialogue with Dr. Robert Millet of Brigham Young University and Rev. Greg Johnson of Standing Together.

http://www.standingtogether.org/

[prisonchaplain]

Yes - and I demand reparations. I'd like a new cold air intake and exhaust system for my new CTS.

You're on the list!

1. Native Americans: return most of the continental U.S.

2. Mexico: Whatever is left after the Native Americans get theirs back.

3. African-Americans: Whatever money is left after we've given up the land.

4. Snow--a collections of loose change left over by the grateful Native Americans, Mexicans, and African-Americans.

Btw, a couple weeks ago I went to a Mariner Church for a "Mormon and Evangelical in Dialogue"

So, how was that?

A dialogue with Dr. Robert Millet of Brigham Young University and Rev. Greg Johnson of Standing Together.http://www.standingtogether.org/

I'll try to view the DVD, when I get a chance. Perhaps I can justify having it placed in our chapel library.

[Elphaba]

I have long been of the opinion, and it just strengthens more daily, that if everyone, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, whether Protestant, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist, etc., would follow the teachings of their religion as they should (excepting Islam, where a radical sect has hijacked it to be violent) this world would be much, much better. There would be love for each other and peace would be the norm rather than the exception (or extinct, as it is now!), and we would then be debating the differences in beliefs in a whole different way.

For me, the Golden Rule is the most profound description of how we should treat one another. It seems trite because it is short and to the point. But if it was truly practiced by all human beings, it would be a wondrous thing.

You described it well when you wrote:

Respect would abound and it would be "live and let live", rather than the harshness that abounds today, with some Christians calling us a cult, some of ours saying similar things, Christians against Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and vice versa, and contention everywhere instead of healthy debate and learning.

Sounds like the Golden Rule to me.

Elphie

[Snow]

Btw, a couple weeks ago I went to a Mariner Church for a "Mormon and Evangelical in Dialogue"

So, how was that?

They are both good friend, both well spoken, both funny. They debated, cordially, the same topics that we debate. I didn't learn anything that we here haven't talked through ten times but it was certainly worth attending. It bodes well for the future of respectful disagreement

[prisonchaplain]

California has all the fun. LOL

[tiancum]

PC,

I have always been impressed with your politeness and kindness towards all others, including us. I honestly feel you treat us like we are your brothers and sisters.

A Leader of the LDS faith talked about how we need to be baptized by fire ad the Holy ghost, to have that mighty change of heart, and strive hard to keep it. It was a wonderful talk, and exposed a weakness for many LDS. WHile for others, it reminded them to not deny the baptism of fire and the holy ghost they have received.

By your fruits PC, I am thankful that you are a true follower of Christ. You are more Christian than many LDS that profess such. Why do I say that about my faith? Well, because I was one that professed, but did not understand. And now I recognise it in others when I see the same thing has happened to them.

anyway, thank you

[Guest Yediyd]

PC,

I have always been impressed with your politeness and kindness towards all others, including us. I honestly feel you treat us like we are your brothers and sisters.

A Leader of the LDS faith talked about how we need to be baptized by fire ad the Holy ghost, to have that mighty change of heart, and strive hard to keep it. It was a wonderful talk, and exposed a weakness for many LDS. WHile for others, it reminded them to not deny the baptism of fire and the holy ghost they have received.

By your fruits PC, I am thankful that you are a true follower of Christ. You are more Christian than many LDS that profess such. Why do I say that about my faith? Well, because I was one that professed, but did not understand. And now I recognise it in others when I see the same thing has happened to them.

anyway, thank you

I agree...PC, you are an example and a pleasure to interact with... I have learned from you.

[prisonchaplain]

Tiancum, thank you for your kind, encouraging words. Most people in most faith traditions have been disappointed by the behaviors and attitudes of spiritual brothers and sisters (especially when contrasted with some who are outside the household). Perhaps that is why Jesus commanded us to love one another (i.e. it is often difficult to do, so we have to be told to do so anyway), to bare one another's burdens, and to follow Jesus (not each other).

Yed--gratitude back at you. Also, once in awhile, if I drift into evangelical-speak, I'll count on you to translate, since you grew up immersed the language. :-)

[Guest Yediyd]

Tiancum, thank you for your kind, encouraging words. Most people in most faith traditions have been disappointed by the behaviors and attitudes of spiritual brothers and sisters (especially when contrasted with some who are outside the household). Perhaps that is why Jesus commanded us to love one another (i.e. it is often difficult to do, so we have to be told to do so anyway), to bare one another's burdens, and to follow Jesus (not each other).

Yed--gratitude back at you. Also, once in awhile, if I drift into evangelical-speak, I'll count on you to translate, since you grew up immersed the language. :-)

Be glad to be of service!!!

I have to tell you a funny story...One time when my dad was preaching...he through his coat over his Bible and was pointing to it and screaming at the top of his lungs, "It's ALIVE! It's ALIVE!!" he wipped off his coat, grabbed the Bible and screamed, "It's ALIVE! Anyware you cut it, it will bleed!!!" then, he went on to preach a hair raising sermon about Jesus Being the word of God and the word being alive...

...ahhhh, yes....how WELL I remember those evangelical days!!!!

There are some dedicated, AWSOME people in the evangelical churches...I have met some...I was also raised by one of the nuttiest!!!