Benjamin Netanyahu Speech.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

So you would trade the president who has improved the over all feeling of good will towards the US whilst in power for a leader who has damaged the global reputation of his nation internationally during his time as leader?  That really makes sense doesn't it! not.

 

An "improved overall feeling of good will towards the US" is merely your opinion, and even if it was accurate I frankly couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks.

 

For the most part the nations of this world are led by a pack of Marxist/Communist/Socialist thugs. If they are at odds with Netanyahu then he must be doing something right.

[Latter Days Guy]

I can think of a few possibilities:

 

1.  Quit freakin' launching rockets at Israeli civilian populations.  (Over 2,500 of them since early 2012 alone.  Yes, they're done rather incompetently, such that fatalities are minimal; but these numbers nevertheless give the lie to the notion that Israel isn't under attack--the Arab states are just letting the Palestinians do their dirty work for them.)

2.  Quit kidnapping Israeli nationals.

3.  Quit digging tunnels under the border for the purpose of facilitating smuggling, kidnappings, or raids.

4.  Quit allowing rocket launchers, supply depots, etc. to be set up on the rooftops of homes, hospitals, and schools.

5.  Use all my efforts as a citizen of Gaza to persuade fellowcitizens to follow 1-4 above.

6.  Elect a government that will make a serious effort at following 1-4 above.

7.  Lobby the UN to place a permanent, non-Arab peacekeeping force in Gaza.

8.  When the UN gives me money for infrastructure--use it for infrastructure, rather than for military development.

9.  Present a cohesive plan, to Israel and the world, as to how you're going to keep an independent Gaza from becoming another staging ground from which to launch raids against the Israeli heartland, and how you're going to keep it from becoming an ISIS- or Iranian-dominated cesspool.

10.  Lobby Egypt and the UN into opening its southern border with Gaza.  (It's not just those awful, awful Joos who are starving the Gazans into submission.  The Egyptians don't want anything to do with the place either--because they know it's a security nightmare.)

Israel dropped more on Gaza in two weeks that have been shot at them since 2012.  During the so called cease fire after the latest Israeli incursions there was almost daily sorties by their air force bombing into Gaza, not much of a cease fire.

Palestinians are subjected to kidnapping and imprisonment on an almost daily basis.  

When the only way to get food, construction materials, medical supplies into Gaza is via the tunnels due to the Israeli blockade and limited quota on what can be brought in, then tunnels are going to continue to be built.

One of the tactics the Israeli armed forced used last year was to drop leaflets stating safe zones and UN compounds as places of safety which where then bombed. 

Are Palestinians not allowed to have weapons to defend themselves or is that just the right of the occupying Israeli forces?

They did elect a government in full and fair elections, that Israel doesn't like them doesn't give them the right to bomb and starve them into submission.  Hamas offered a 10 year long truce to allow the peace process to proceed, there has been a frame work to get a peaceful resolution to the situation on the table since 1993 but Israel stalls and changes the goal posts at every turn.  Now they are against the two state solution that they said they supported since 1993, is it any wonder there is no peace?  The Arab League has even tabled a peace plan which would have brought the normalisation of relations and peace treaties with all Arab nations which Israel snubbed,  Is that what a country looking for peace does?

The border between Egypt and Gaza is closed at the behest of the Israeli government as Egypt values the support of Israel and the US over the lives of those dying in Gaza.

[Crypto]

 

So you would trade the president who has improved the over all feeling of good will towards the US whilst in power for a leader who has damaged the global reputation of his nation internationally during his time as leader?  That really makes sense doesn't it! not.

You are quite right, there are some terrible things happening to the Palestinians. I've heard about it from some native palestinians themselves. I've also heard about the horrible things that are happening to Israel from some jews.

I don't think this issue is completely black and white.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Crypto

[Latter Days Guy]

 

An "improved overall feeling of good will towards the US" is merely your opinion, and even if it was accurate I frankly couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks.

 

For the most part the nations of this world are led by a pack of Marxist/Communist/Socialist thugs. If they are at odds with Netanyahu then he must be doing something right.

 

And its that kind of arrogant attitude that destroys the trust and support that the US could have in the rest of the world.  

[Latter Days Guy]

 

 

You are quite right, there are some terrible things happening to the Palestinians. I've heard about it from some native palestinians themselves. I've also heard about the horrible things that are happening to Israel from some jews.

I don't think this issue is completely black and white.

 

That is very true, nothing is ever black and white.  But when you have the veto of the US in the UN security council in your back pocket then the prospect of peace isn't looking very likely.

[Just_A_Guy]

Israel dropped more on Gaza in two weeks that have been shot at them since 2012.  During the so called cease fire after the latest Israeli incursions there was almost daily sorties by their air force bombing into Gaza, not much of a cease fire.

Palestinians are subjected to kidnapping and imprisonment on an almost daily basis.  

When the only way to get food, construction materials, medical supplies into Gaza is via the tunnels due to the Israeli blockade and limited quota on what can be brought in, then tunnels are going to continue to be built.

One of the tactics the Israeli armed forced used last year was to drop leaflets stating safe zones and UN compounds as places of safety which where then bombed. 

Are Palestinians not allowed to have weapons to defend themselves or is that just the right of the occupying Israeli forces?

They did elect a government in full and fair elections, that Israel doesn't like them doesn't give them the right to bomb and starve them into submission.  Hamas offered a 10 year long truce to allow the peace process to proceed, there has been a frame work to get a peaceful resolution to the situation on the table since 1993 but Israel stalls and changes the goal posts at every turn.  Now they are against the two state solution that they said they supported since 1993, is it any wonder there is no peace?  The Arab League has even tabled a peace plan which would have brought the normalisation of relations and peace treaties with all Arab nations which Israel snubbed,  Is that what a country looking for peace does?

The border between Egypt and Gaza is closed at the behest of the Israeli government as Egypt values the support of Israel and the US over the lives of those dying in Gaza.

 

A couple of passing observations in response:

 

--If someone tries to kill you, I don't believe you have a moral obligation to defend yourself with one arm tied behind your back just because your attacker is terrible at physical combat.  I support Israel's right to conduct as many military operations as it takes to make the rocket attacks stop.

--Palestinians are arrested/imprisoned by Israelis as an attempt to identify potential terrorists, who are then imprisoned.  Israelis are arrested/imprisoned by Palestinians as an attempt to identify . . . well, Israelis, basically; who are then imprisoned or killed at the whim of the authorities there.  Neither practice is great; but let's not pretend they're equivalent.

--I think there's more to the Egyptian blockade of Gaza's southern border than just the fact that those rascally Jews and those cowboy Americans put them up to it.  Egypt, having committed the cardinal sin of making peace with Israel, actually has to make efforts to prevent its territory from being used to mount a proxy war against Israel; as well as the other things grown-up states do like maintaining a stable border that is not a mecca for smuggling and arms trafficking.  Moreover, Egypt would like to avoid becoming an Iranian puppet.  These are burdens that many states in the Middle East simply don't have to bear.

--I'll need a source for the notion that Israeli leaflets deliberately encouraged Palestinian civilians to gather into what became "kill zones".  Everything I read during the period was the opposite--leaflets would tell civilians to evacuate an area, but the civilians who tried found themselves coming under fire from their own peacekeeping forces and ordered to return to their homes.

--I don't find Hamas' claims to have wanted peace, particularly persuasive.  (A cease-fire?  Sure; those can be quite useful tactically.  Peace?  Doubtful, given their ideology.  Acknowledging the state of Israel's right to exist in its current form would go an awfully long way; and it's telling that they won't do it.)

--I think a two-state solution is the best long-term goal and I think new settlements in the West Bank are a horrible idea.  That said:  With Iran turning Syria and Lebanon into puppet states, and Arab governments all over the Middle East caving to ISIS; I think it would be remarkably naive for Israel to go ahead and implement the two-state solution unless a multinational force agrees to maintain security there for the foreseeable future.

--The Arab Leage proposal, as I understand it, made Right of Return for 1948 refugees and their descendants a prerequisite.  That's just a nonstarter.  You don't take five million people who have grown up being taught to hate Jews, and place them smack in the middle of eight million Jews; unless you're trying to backdoor another Holocaust. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Capitalist_Oinker]

And its that kind of arrogant attitude that destroys the trust and support that the US could have in the rest of the world.  

 

Hmmm...

Apparently I didn't make myself clear the first time, so allow me to take another shot at it.

 

I am not, along with millions of other Americans, the least bit interested in gaining trust and support from Marxist/Communist/Socialist tyrants. If you wish to call that "arrogant" , so be it. 

But America is a country which was established by God Himself to be a land of freedom and liberty, and His base of operations in the latter days. And if America is on a road which leads to gaining "trust and “support" from tyrants who despise freedom and liberty, then that is a road I will ever pray we veer off from.

 

I don't agree with Netanyahu on all of his political stances, but I would still trade our current POTUS for him without the slightest flinch.

Much like I would, if I were hungry, trade a rancid piece of meat for a wrinkly apple.

[Leah]

If you were a person living in Gaza, what would you do?  You live in a piece of land 25 miles long by 7 miles wide at its widest, your hemmed in on all sides, have no right to free travel outside of the border wall and there is close to 2 million people living in that tiny space.  Your amenities are bombed into dust on a regular basis, there are severe restrictions on the import of most commodities.  You have to spend hours waiting for the possibility of getting through a checkpoint which can close at the drop of a hat on the whim of the soldiers manning it. If you need to attend a hospital or in desperate need of medical help you have to wait in line, no chance of being rushed through.  Premature babies are delivered in ambulances and often die due to not getting to the hospital in time.  What would you do in that situation?  I think I would do as some people in a similar situation did, I would fight to get my freedom back, even in the face of over whelming military forces rained against me, a bit like the Jews in the Warsaw getto in 1943 did.

As for all those countries clamouring for Israel's destruction, since 1973 which of those nations have acted in or directly attacked Israel?  None. However that cannot be said of Israel who seem to think they can attack anyone they wish with little or no threat of repercussions due to the blank cheque of protection afforded them by the US in the United Nations.

The only people who are under siege are the Palestinians, who according to the UN are still an occupied people. 

 

You need to learn some facts and history instead of listening to bigoted propaganda.

 

However, I suspect that you are one of those who choose to ignore those facts that don't jive with your chosen viewpoint.

[Latter Days Guy]

A couple of passing observations in response:

 

--If someone tries to kill you, I don't believe you have a moral obligation to defend yourself with one arm tied behind your back just because your attacker is terrible at physical combat.  I support Israel's right to conduct as many military operations as it takes to make the rocket attacks stop.

--Palestinians are arrested/imprisoned by Israelis as an attempt to identify potential terrorists, who are then imprisoned.  Israelis are arrested/imprisoned by Palestinians as an attempt to identify . . . well, Israelis, basically; who are then imprisoned or killed at the whim of the authorities there.  Neither practice is great; but let's not pretend they're equivalent.

--I think there's more to the Egyptian blockade of Gaza's southern border than just the fact that those rascally Jews and those cowboy Americans put them up to it.  Egypt, having committed the cardinal sin of making peace with Israel, actually has to make efforts to prevent its territory from being used to mount a proxy war against Israel; as well as the other things grown-up states do like maintaining a stable border that is not a mecca for smuggling and arms trafficking.  Moreover, Egypt would like to avoid becoming an Iranian puppet.  These are burdens that many states in the Middle East simply don't have to bear.

--I'll need a source for the notion that Israeli leaflets deliberately encouraged Palestinian civilians to gather into what became "kill zones".  Everything I read during the period was the opposite--leaflets would tell civilians to evacuate an area, but the civilians who tried found themselves coming under fire from their own peacekeeping forces and ordered to return to their homes.

--I don't find Hamas' claims to have wanted peace, particularly persuasive.  (A cease-fire?  Sure; those can be quite useful tactically.  Peace?  Doubtful, given their ideology.  Acknowledging the state of Israel's right to exist in its current form would go an awfully long way; and it's telling that they won't do it.)

--I think a two-state solution is the best long-term goal and I think new settlements in the West Bank are a horrible idea.  That said:  With Iran turning Syria and Lebanon into puppet states, and Arab governments all over the Middle East caving to ISIS; I think it would be remarkably naive for Israel to go ahead and implement the two-state solution unless a multinational force agrees to maintain security there for the foreseeable future.

--The Arab Leage proposal, as I understand it, made Right of Return for 1948 refugees and their descendants a prerequisite.  That's just a nonstarter.  You don't take five million people who have grown up being taught to hate Jews, and place them smack in the middle of eight million Jews; unless you're trying to backdoor another Holocaust. 

Yes Israel has a right to defend itself, but that right has to be proportional to the threat.  A threat which is almost negligible when you consider the actual launch to hit ratio of the rockets fired at them.

There's nothing wrong with detaining people who are suspected of being terrorists but then the majority of those detained by Israel are children I suspect a far more nefarious purpose.  As for Israelis being arrested by the PA, cannot find any evidence of such happening, though I did find substantial evidence of the PA arresting and detaining suspected Palestinian terrorists, which doesn't seem to happen with regards to the atrocities carried out by those in the illegal settlements built on Palestinian land.

Since the military coup overthrew the legitimately and democratically elected Egyptian government its gone back to the bad old days of Mubarak style rule, that is supported by American dollars and military aid which is given in return for the Egyptian support to the oppression of the Palestinians on its borders in Gaza.

The peace deal was real and was being honoured by the Palestinian Unity government that Israel has set its heart on destroying.  Hamas and the PA already acknowelge Israel's right to exist within the context of the borders that existed before the 1967 war.  Israel needs to submit to international law and withdraw from the occupied territories, its needs to dismantle the illegal settlements and remove the illegal settlers back within Israel. 

I guess you've been watching fox news with your with Iran turning Syria and Lebanon into puppet states, and Arab governments all over the middle east caving to ISIS" comment.  Which Arab governments are caving into ISIS?  None. The only people in Syria being supported by Iran is Assad and he's not doing too well in that fight, and Hezbollah isn't being the lapdog to Iran that it was in the past either.  As for Egypt joining Iran, that would never happen, the vast majority of Egyptians are Sunni and want nothing to do with Shia Iranians.

So its ok for Jews to have a free reign on anyone and their dog to return to Israel but not ok for Palestinians to return to their native land?  Why is that?  And who says that all of them have been taught to hate Jews?  The Palestinians I know certainly don't hate jews, they do however hate how they have been treated as a people over the years of their exile.  Funny how you raised the holocaust, as from what I've seen that is exactly what is happening to Palestinians now, they are getting walled into their own ghetto's, treated as second class citizens, denied basic human rights by an occupying force.  The Israeli's are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazi's did to the Jews in the 1930's and 1940's, and like then the world is standing idly by watching from the sidelines as history repeats itself.

[Latter Days Guy]

 

Hmmm...

Apparently I didn't make myself clear the first time, so allow me to take another shot at it.

 

I am not, along with millions of other Americans, the least bit interested in gaining trust and support from Marxist/Communist/Socialist tyrants. If you wish to call that "arrogant" , so be it. 

But America is a country which was established by God Himself to be a land of freedom and liberty, and His base of operations in the latter days. And if America is on a road which leads to gaining "trust and “support" from tyrants who despise freedom and liberty, then that is a road I will ever pray we veer off from.

 

I don't agree with Netanyahu on all of his political stances, but I would still trade our current POTUS for him without the slightest flinch.

Much like I would, if I were hungry, trade a rancid piece of meat for a wrinkly apple.

 

Whom are these Marxist/Communist/Socialist states you evidently have nightmares about?  I hadn't realised that the US had gone back to to the good ole days of McCarthyism and the reds under the bed mentality!  The US is hardly a bastion of freedom and liberty though is it and the only nation that has ever been founded by God was ancient Israel and that hasn't existed as an independent nation since the times of the Maccabees.   

[prisonchaplain]

Yes Israel has a right to defend itself, but that right has to be proportional to the threat.  A threat which is almost negligible when you consider the actual launch to hit ratio of the rockets fired at them.

 

You focus quite strongly on the fact that the anti-Semites have not been successful.  Perhaps, rather than turning Israel's effective defense protocols back on them (why so harsh against a weak enemy?), we ought to learn from them?

 

There's nothing wrong with detaining people who are suspected of being terrorists but then the majority of those detained by Israel are children I suspect a far more nefarious purpose.

 

Wait, what???  Are you suggesting that anti-Semitic terrorists won't use children to kill?  Also, you're going to have to spell out this "nefarious purpose."  What do you think they really want to do with these detained children?

 

Since the military coup overthrew the legitimately and democratically elected Egyptian government its gone back to the bad old days of Mubarak style rule, that is supported by American dollars and military aid which is given in return for the Egyptian support to the oppression of the Palestinians on its borders in Gaza.

 

This coup...it just happened?  The military just woke up after the election and suddenly decided, "Hey, we'd rather be in charge.  The people are too happy and well cared for.  Let's ruin it by returning to military rule."  Perhaps there was a bit more to this...just maybe?

 

The peace deal was real and was being honoured by the Palestinian Unity government that Israel has set its heart on destroying.  Hamas and the PA already acknowelge Israel's right to exist within the context of the borders that existed before the 1967 war.  Israel needs to submit to international law and withdraw from the occupied territories, its needs to dismantle the illegal settlements and remove the illegal settlers back within Israel. 

 

You ignore the  fact that the war was started by those seeking to destroy Israel.  Against great odds, they lost.  Israel, now fearing a repeat, took some of the spoils of war, as a way of improving their defense posture.  Keep in mind that Israel is surrounded by physical enemies, they have enemies living within their borders.

 

 

So its ok for Jews to have a free reign on anyone and their dog to return to Israel but not ok for Palestinians to return to their native land?  Why is that?  

 

I'm confused by this.  You do not believe Israel has the right to extend citizenship to the diaspora???  Why wouldn't a sovereign nation control who it welcomes into its citizenry?  As for the Palestinians, what is their native land?  Do they have a nation?  Or, are they trying to destroy Israel, and take their land?

 

And who says that all of them have been taught to hate Jews?  The Palestinians I know certainly don't hate jews, they do however hate how they have been treated as a people over the years of their exile.  Funny how you raised the holocaust, as from what I've seen that is exactly what is happening to Palestinians now, they are getting walled into their own ghetto's, treated as second class citizens, denied basic human rights by an occupying force.  The Israeli's are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazi's did to the Jews in the 1930's and 1940's, and like then the world is standing idly by watching from the sidelines as history repeats itself.

 

You seriously compare Israel's self-defense against enemies without and within to the Holocaust?  6 million Jews were butchered simply because they were Jews! 

[Just_A_Guy]

Hi LDG -

 

--I agree with "proportionality" in the sense that it should be calculated to stop the threat rather than just hitting them because we can. On the the other hand: No, I don't believe Israel has an obligation to just let 2-3 rockets per day land somewhere in their borders, pray they don't actually kill anyone, accept whatever casualties do come, and otherwise continue on with life as usual.  I rather suspect Europe will come to a similar point of view if/when ISIS crosses the Mediterranean.

--When it comes to Israelis being "arrested" by the Palestinians--I was, of course, using "arrested" as a euphemism for "kidnapped".

--Israel routinely bulldozes Israeli settler homes that it considers to have been built without the proper authorizations.  Granted, they wouldn't agree with you as to what constitutes "proper authorization".  That's unfortunate, but it's hardly a "war crime".

--Teach your kids to throw rocks at police, and those kids are going to get arrested. 

--It's interesting to me that you rely on how Morsi got to power, but ignore what he started doing with power once he got it (constitutional tinkering, granting himself extended powers, etc).  But at any rate:  US aid to Egypt is predicated not on keeping the Gaza border closed, but on keeping Egypt and Israel at peace generally--something that Morsi was looking like he'd undermine.  

--I am not aware of any statement where Hamas said they would recognize pre-1967 Israeli borders.  What they have said is that they would recognize pre-1967 Palestinian borders--with a right to gobble up more out of the Israeli core, if they can get the international community to go along.  See, e.g., here.

--"International law" is a fun phrase to use.  Under "international law", what right does your British Museum have to retain he spoils it stole from across the globe during the days of the Empire?  Bottom line:  Nations will act according to their own interest; and it is simply not in Israel's interest to give rise to a new terrorist state on its borders.

--My labeling of Lebanon and Syria as Iranian puppets doesn't come from Fox News.  It comes from, among other things, post-graduate studies with a former candidate for the Presidency of Lebanon, who recalled how candidates critical of Iran had a curious habit of winding up dead.  The fact that Egypt and Iran don't like each other, doesn't mean that Egypt can't or won't become a cesspool if someone so much as sneezes in the wrong direction.  You're welcome to keep up your "all is well in the middle east, ISIS isn't a problem, Assad's not a problem, Hezbollah's not a problem, Iran's not a problem, and none of this has anything to do with Israel" for as long as you wish--Europe has certainly turned a blind eye to obvious security threats in the past--but it's the Israelis who have skin in this game; and it's not a war crime to choose to go down in history as a Churchill rather than a Chamberlain.

--Do you support the right of Cuban emigres in Florida to return to Cuba and claim the property Castro stole from their grandparents?  No?  The only difference between them and the Palestinians is that the US welcomed these immigrants, assimilated them, and allowed them to prosper; whereas the Arab states deliberately refused the Palestinians citizenship, herded them into camps, and followed a deliberate policy of keeping them homeless and bitter. That's tragic, to be sure; but at this point it's not solely the Israelis' fault.  (When the Israelis took over the administration of refugee camps within the territories they took in the Six Day War, they offered to resettle those refugees and assist them with constructions of homes, schools, and infrastructure; until the UN put the kibosh on it.)  Compensation might be an option.  Right of return?  It's just not realistic, and I repeat: It's just a backdoor to another ethnic cleansing, in the other direction.

--Is this transcript of extracts of a Palestinian children's show, accurate?  Is this photo doctored?  If they're both accurate, I don't think these people can live together until there is a fundamental shift in Palestinian society.

--The comparison to the Nazi holocaust would make more sense if the Jews of the 1940s had spent the past 70 years in a state of open warfare against the Germans, and taught their children that everything good the Germans had built over the last seventy years should and at some point would be turned over to them.  Bottom line:  The Israelis are doing exactly what any nation whose very existence was under threat, would do.  Western Europe hasn't had to face that dillemma for a couple of generations; hence, the Israeli predicament is unfathomable to Europeans.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Crypto]

Children running around with essentially military grade weaponry is pretty common, even if such a photo is doctored. 

[Latter Days Guy]

 

Yes Israel has a right to defend itself, but that right has to be proportional to the threat.  A threat which is almost negligible when you consider the actual launch to hit ratio of the rockets fired at them.

 

You focus quite strongly on the fact that the anti-Semites have not been successful.  Perhaps, rather than turning Israel's effective defense protocols back on them (why so harsh against a weak enemy?), we ought to learn from them?

 

Anti-Semites?  That effective defence strategy which breaches the Geneva convention with its use of white phosphors and fletchlet munitions on civilian areas?  That deliberately targets for destruction civilian infrastructure like hospitals and sanitation plants, schools etc in direct violation of the Geneva convention. 

 

There's nothing wrong with detaining people who are suspected of being terrorists but then the majority of those detained by Israel are children I suspect a far more nefarious purpose.

 

Wait, what???  Are you suggesting that anti-Semitic terrorists won't use children to kill?  Also, you're going to have to spell out this "nefarious purpose."  What do you think they really want to do with these detained children?

 

When Israeli forces routinely round up children and imprison them without charge, why do they do that? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uk-ready-to-take-on-israel-over-fate-of-children-clapped-in-irons-7888914.html

 

 

Since the military coup overthrew the legitimately and democratically elected Egyptian government its gone back to the bad old days of Mubarak style rule, that is supported by American dollars and military aid which is given in return for the Egyptian support to the oppression of the Palestinians on its borders in Gaza.

 

This coup...it just happened?  The military just woke up after the election and suddenly decided, "Hey, we'd rather be in charge.  The people are too happy and well cared for.  Let's ruin it by returning to military rule."  Perhaps there was a bit more to this...just maybe?

 

No the coup didn't just happen, it happened when the government began to strip away some of the powers the military had gained under Mubarak, which of course they didn't like, which led to the coup.

 

The peace deal was real and was being honoured by the Palestinian Unity government that Israel has set its heart on destroying.  Hamas and the PA already acknowelge Israel's right to exist within the context of the borders that existed before the 1967 war.  Israel needs to submit to international law and withdraw from the occupied territories, its needs to dismantle the illegal settlements and remove the illegal settlers back within Israel. 

 

You ignore the  fact that the war was started by those seeking to destroy Israel.  Against great odds, they lost.  Israel, now fearing a repeat, took some of the spoils of war, as a way of improving their defense posture.  Keep in mind that Israel is surrounded by physical enemies, they have enemies living within their borders.

 

 

So its ok for Jews to have a free reign on anyone and their dog to return to Israel but not ok for Palestinians to return to their native land?  Why is that?  

 

I'm confused by this.  You do not believe Israel has the right to extend citizenship to the diaspora???  Why wouldn't a sovereign nation control who it welcomes into its citizenry?  As for the Palestinians, what is their native land?  Do they have a nation?  Or, are they trying to destroy Israel, and take their land?

 

No I believe that that the Palestinians should have the same rights to return as is extended to any jew, which of course Israel opposes.  As for where there land is, it is the land that is presently under occupation by the state of Israel, the land that has been clearly identified through various accords since the Oslo accord in 1993 where both Israel and the Palestinian Authorities declared that they both had a legal right to exist and that a Palestinian state based in the occupied territories should be created. 

 

And who says that all of them have been taught to hate Jews?  The Palestinians I know certainly don't hate jews, they do however hate how they have been treated as a people over the years of their exile.  Funny how you raised the holocaust, as from what I've seen that is exactly what is happening to Palestinians now, they are getting walled into their own ghetto's, treated as second class citizens, denied basic human rights by an occupying force.  The Israeli's are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazi's did to the Jews in the 1930's and 1940's, and like then the world is standing idly by watching from the sidelines as history repeats itself.

 

You seriously compare Israel's self-defense against enemies without and within to the Holocaust?  6 million Jews were butchered simply because they were Jews! 

 

So Israelis have a right to self defence but the Palestinians don't?  How many Palestinians have died since 1948?  Conservative estimates are close to 5 million.  Next I will be called anti-semitic because I don't toe the pro Israeli line, where the Holocaust mantra is trotted out as a kind of trump card to quell all who disagree with what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians.  You should read The Holocaust Industry  by Norman Finkelstein, his family was murdered in the Holocaust but then he has a lot to say about how that tragic event is exploited.

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Latter Days Guy

[Latter Days Guy]

Hi LDG -

 

--I agree with "proportionality" in the sense that it should be calculated to stop the threat rather than just hitting them because we can. On the the other hand: No, I don't believe Israel has an obligation to just let 2-3 rockets per day land somewhere in their borders, pray they don't actually kill anyone, accept whatever casualties do come, and otherwise continue on with life as usual.  I rather suspect Europe will come to a similar point of view if/when ISIS crosses the Mediterranean.

 

Pity that was the case with the recent attacks on Gaza, the "lets just hit them because we can" attitude.  And it must have been so dangerous for the Israeli's with all of those home made rockets falling on them, they probably didn't come out of their bomb shelters... No wait, they drew up their chairs and have parties whilst watching from a nearby hillside while the bombs and missiles rained destruction on the civilians of Gaza.  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

--When it comes to Israelis being "arrested" by the Palestinians--I was, of course, using "arrested" as a euphemism for "kidnapped".

 

How many Israeli's have been abducted?  How many Palestinians been abducted?  Thing is, for Palestinians its often a daily occurrence, yet in last year there were I believe 3 Israelis abducted.

 

--Israel routinely bulldozes Israeli settler homes that it considers to have been built without the proper authorizations.  Granted, they wouldn't agree with you as to what constitutes "proper authorization".  That's unfortunate, but it's hardly a "war crime".

 

I think you will find they routinely bulldoze Palestinian houses to make way for more illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied territories.

 

--Teach your kids to throw rocks at police, and those kids are going to get arrested. 

 

There are no Israeli police in the occupied territories but there are lots of soldiers, and generally its a rubber coated metal bullet to the head and not arrest as the standard Israeli response to a bit of rock throwing.

 

--It's interesting to me that you rely on how Morsi got to power, but ignore what he started doing with power once he got it (constitutional tinkering, granting himself extended powers, etc).  But at any rate:  US aid to Egypt is predicated not on keeping the Gaza border closed, but on keeping Egypt and Israel at peace generally--something that Morsi was looking like he'd undermine.  

 

As a matter of fact Morsi strove to strenghten the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt.  The so called tinkering you refer to was to remove the substantial powers the ruling military generals had and return them to civilian control, a move which in the end showed where the military's loyalty lay, and it wasn't with the ordinary Egyptians but with themselves.

 

--I am not aware of any statement where Hamas said they would recognize pre-1967 Israeli borders.  What they have said is that they would recognize pre-1967 Palestinian borders--with a right to gobble up more out of the Israeli core, if they can get the international community to go along.  See, e.g., here.

--"International law" is a fun phrase to use.  Under "international law", what right does your British Museum have to retain he spoils it stole from across the globe during the days of the Empire?  Bottom line:  Nations will act according to their own interest; and it is simply not in Israel's interest to give rise to a new terrorist state on its borders.

--My labeling of Lebanon and Syria as Iranian puppets doesn't come from Fox News.  It comes from, among other things, post-graduate studies with a former candidate for the Presidency of Lebanon, who recalled how candidates critical of Iran had a curious habit of winding up dead.  The fact that Egypt and Iran don't like each other, doesn't mean that Egypt can't or won't become a cesspool if someone so much as sneezes in the wrong direction.  You're welcome to keep up your "all is well in the middle east, ISIS isn't a problem, Assad's not a problem, Hezbollah's not a problem, Iran's not a problem, and none of this has anything to do with Israel" for as long as you wish--Europe has certainly turned a blind eye to obvious security threats in the past--but it's the Israelis who have skin in this game; and it's not a war crime to choose to go down in history as a Churchill rather than a Chamberlain.

 

Well it would seem International law is a joke to you but it is what the governments of the world work by in their relations between themselves.  I never said it was a bed of roses in the middle east, but most of Israel's problems would disappear if they stood bye the commitments to the various treaties they have signed in the past.  That Israel continues to reject all attempts at a peace deal says a lot about what it thinks of the peace process.  ISIS is a problem, but it is a problem that is being strongly dealt with by the Arab nations who have taken a strong stance against them.

 

--Do you support the right of Cuban emigres in Florida to return to Cuba and claim the property Castro stole from their grandparents?  No?  The only difference between them and the Palestinians is that the US welcomed these immigrants, assimilated them, and allowed them to prosper; whereas the Arab states deliberately refused the Palestinians citizenship, herded them into camps, and followed a deliberate policy of keeping them homeless and bitter. That's tragic, to be sure; but at this point it's not solely the Israelis' fault.  (When the Israelis took over the administration of refugee camps within the territories they took in the Six Day War, they offered to resettle those refugees and assist them with constructions of homes, schools, and infrastructure; until the UN put the kibosh on it.)  Compensation might be an option.  Right of return?  It's just not realistic, and I repeat: It's just a backdoor to another ethnic cleansing, in the other direction.

 

Yes they have a right to return but that doesn't mean they will get back their lost property. The Palestinians also have a right to return, obviously they will return to the land that is designated to be the state of Palestine under the various accords reached since Oslo.  But I believe that is acceptable to the Palestinian people.  When Israel takes over refugee camps there is generally only one outcome as was witnessed in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps where Israeli aliies were allowed to massacre Palestinians in their thousands whilst the Israeli army watched on.  Year on year as more Israeli settlements are built illegally on Palestinian land, as more and more Palestinians are driven off, as there resources are taken away from them, soon there won't be any land left to make a viable Palestinian homeland.  If that isn't ethnic cleansing then I don't know what is!

 

--Is this transcript of extracts of a Palestinian children's show, accurate?  Is this photo doctored?  If they're both accurate, I don't think these people can live together until there is a fundamental shift in Palestinian society.

 

 

--The comparison to the Nazi holocaust would make more sense if the Jews of the 1940s had spent the past 70 years in a state of open warfare against the Germans, and taught their children that everything good the Germans had built over the last seventy years should and at some point would be turned over to them.  Bottom line:  The Israelis are doing exactly what any nation whose very existence was under threat, would do.  Western Europe hasn't had to face that dillemma for a couple of generations; hence, the Israeli predicament is unfathomable to Europeans.

 

Israel is not and has not been under any threat of destruction since 1973.  That was when the last time another nation attacked Israel.  Since then no Arab nation has attacked Israel, however Israel has on many occasions attacked its neighbours.  The genocide against the Palestinians shares many similarities with the holocaust.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Latter Days Guy

[Vort]

LDG, I am surprised by the vehemence of your opinion and your utter unwillingness to consider that you may be wrong, and that you may be unduly influenced by the bias of the UK media. I suppose I should not be surprised by that; you are only human, after all. But in any case, you should seriously consider the possibility that the opinions expressed on e.g. the BBC are not divine words of TRVTH, and that your view of Israel might be seriously warped by the European political climate in which you live.

[Latter Days Guy]

LDG, I am surprised by the vehemence of your opinion and your utter unwillingness to consider that you may be wrong, and that you may be unduly influenced by the bias of the UK media. I suppose I should not be surprised by that; you are only human, after all. But in any case, you should seriously consider the possibility that the opinions expressed on e.g. the BBC are not divine words of TRVTH, and that your view of Israel might be seriously warped by the European political climate in which you live.

The UK media on the whole are very pro Israel, even with the BBC you will be hard pressed to find many who are openly pro Palestinian.  I used to be very pro Israel, now I am pro peace.  I honestly believe that Israel has a right to exist but also that same right should be made for a Palestinian state.  The evidence clearly shows that Israel or rather the certain sections of Israel want nothing but the utter destruction of all things Palestinian.  They want a pure Jewish State in what they call greater Israel.  As for my views being warped, I could say the same for you, that your views are warped by the US political climate in which you live.  

[prisonchaplain]

I  checked Latter Day Guy's Independent, and found that it is a relatively young publication, described as "center-left," very anti-US Middle Eastern intervention.  Even one Labor leader described as more of a "viewspaper."  So, not to say that its information might have some validity--but there certainly is an agenda to its reporting.

 

On the treatment of child-detainees--yes, there are groups that find Israel's policies harsh.  Most of them are either pro-Palestinian, or they are ignorant of what it is for a nation to be on permanent war footing.

 

Finally, on the overall problem of Israel and the Palestinians, I found this five-minute lecture to be profoundly clear and accurate:  http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwrbSoBRDok47Sv6Ci80wSJABFUszTjgtcRE5wS0TtHfT0Dz_4Bza7CCcApQwtcCFE-hc4RxoC8rjw_wcB#.VQ3-wrl0xhE 

[Latter Days Guy]

I  checked Latter Day Guy's Independent, and found that it is a relatively young publication, described as "center-left," very anti-US Middle Eastern intervention.  Even one Labor leader described as more of a "viewspaper."  So, not to say that its information might have some validity--but there certainly is an agenda to its reporting.

 

On the treatment of child-detainees--yes, there are groups that find Israel's policies harsh.  Most of them are either pro-Palestinian, or they are ignorant of what it is for a nation to be on permanent war footing.

 

Finally, on the overall problem of Israel and the Palestinians, I found this five-minute lecture to be profoundly clear and accurate:  http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwrbSoBRDok47Sv6Ci80wSJABFUszTjgtcRE5wS0TtHfT0Dz_4Bza7CCcApQwtcCFE-hc4RxoC8rjw_wcB#.VQ3-wrl0xhE 

The Independent is a highly regarded and respected newspaper that has no political affiliation, hence the name of the newspaper. 

 

This is what UNICEF has to say about child detainees 

http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oPt_Children_in_Israeli_Military_Detention_Observations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

 

A short video explaining the Isreal/Palestine situation

 

[prisonchaplain]

The issue of media bias is not primary to this discussion.  However, those of us in the U.S. who are more conservative, and who are rigorous about our spirituality, would more often than not describe our "mainstream media" (NYT, Wa. Post, CNN, etc.) to be center-left, and neutral-to-hostile towards faith. 

 

Concerning Israel, the majority of the world's nations, and therefore media, seem hostile towards its existence.  It is a problem.  The Arab nations do not like it, and they are oil-rich.  The Palestinians can play the poor victims of Israel's military might (often playing on America's unspoken racial guilt).

 

So, no, I'm not that trusting.  The United Nations (including UNICEF) seems to have treated Israel as the Goliath against the Palestinians, whereas I see Israel as the David against the Arab-Muslim Goliath.  So, when it badgers a nation that has been on a war footing, bunkered down now for 6 decades plus, I'm skeptical.  Sure, it would be sweet if Israel's prisons were more like Norway's.  However, Norway is not surrounded by anti-Norwegian genocidists, nor does it have cute 11-year old Swedish kids walking into their civilian crowds with military grade munitions.

[Latter Days Guy]

Finally, on the overall problem of Israel and the Palestinians, I found this five-minute lecture to be profoundly clear and accurate:  http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwrbSoBRDok47Sv6Ci80wSJABFUszTjgtcRE5wS0TtHfT0Dz_4Bza7CCcApQwtcCFE-hc4RxoC8rjw_wcB#.VQ3-wrl0xhE 

Interesting video, with some glaring inaccuracies, this article seems very balanced and historically accurate:

 http://www.palestineinformation.org/history.htm

[Just_A_Guy]

 

Pity that was the case with the recent attacks on Gaza, the "lets just hit them because we can" attitude.  And it must have been so dangerous for the Israeli's with all of those home made rockets falling on them, they probably didn't come out of their bomb shelters... No wait, they drew up their chairs and have parties whilst watching from a nearby hillside while the bombs and missiles rained destruction on the civilians of Gaza.  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

. . . .

 

How many Israeli's have been abducted?  How many Palestinians been abducted?  Thing is, for Palestinians its often a daily occurrence, yet in last year there were I believe 3 Israelis abducted.

All this boils down to "Israelis should just lie back, think of England, take their lumps, and accept daily rocket attacks as normal".

 

I reject that mentality; and I daresay you would too if it were the Welsh, rather than the Israelis, facing three random detonations on their territory per day at the hands of a known foe who admitted they were trying to kill/maim noncombatants. 

 

There are no Israeli police in the occupied territories but there are lots of soldiers, and generally its a rubber coated metal bullet to the head and not arrest as the standard Israeli response to a bit of rock throwing.

Hmm.  Most of the sites I could see on imprisoned Palestinian children attributed these arrests to at least the pretext of attacks on Israeli police/IDF forces.  If that's not why Israel is detaining Palestinian children, what's the reason? 

 

And, if IDF forces aren't supposed to detain these little punks; and aren't supposed to use nonlethal force against them--what, pray tell, are they supposed to do?  Smile at them and hand them daisies?

 

As a matter of fact Morsi strove to strenghten the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt.  The so called tinkering you refer to was to remove the substantial powers the ruling military generals had and return them to civilian control, a move which in the end showed where the military's loyalty lay, and it wasn't with the ordinary Egyptians but with themselves.

 

Morsi's statements about Israel were all over the map.  Before his election Morsi was on record calling for the treaty's nullification; and while he moderated his tone post-election many of his fellow partymembers retained that position.

 

Well it would seem International law is a joke to you but it is what the governments of the world work by in their relations between themselves.

 

I never said it was a bed of roses in the middle east, but most of Israel's problems would disappear if they stood bye the commitments to the various treaties they have signed in the past.  That Israel continues to reject all attempts at a peace deal says a lot about what it thinks of the peace process.   ISIS is a problem, but it is a problem that is being strongly dealt with by the Arab nations who have taken a strong stance against them.

 

International law isn't a joke, but it's not a suicide pact either.

 

As for withdrawal as a cure-all:  Hasn't Israel withdrawn from Sinai--and forcibly expel their own citizens who had settled there, at gunpoint?  Haven't they withdrawn time and again from Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon, only to see those regions used again for attacks against their heartland? 

 

Your assurance that if Israel just leaves Gaza and the West Bank alone, this time things will be different, smacks of one of Lucy Van Pelt's perennially broken promises to Charlie Brown about yanking the football as he's about to kick a field goal.  Only in this case, it's Israeli lives on the line.

 

 But I believe that is acceptable to the Palestinian people.

 

Oh, well, as long as you believe it . . .

 

When Israel takes over refugee camps there is generally only one outcome as was witnessed in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps where Israeli aliies were allowed to massacre Palestinians in their thousands whilst the Israeli army watched on.

 

Israel acted far more aggressively to punish the Israelis responsible for that action, than Brigham Young did to punish the perpetrators of Mountain Meadows.  There was a substantial popular movement within Israel itself that the perpetrators should be punished (contrast this with the silence, or even celebration on Palestinian streets, with the death of every Israeli).

 

As for the Israeli resettlement programs, though, consider this article from the Christian Science Monitor:

 

In the early 1970s, Israel initiated what it called the "build your own home" program. A half a dunam of land outside the camps (equal to about an eighth of an acre) was given to Palestinians who then financed the purchase of building materials and, usually with friends, erected a home. Israel provided the infrastructure: sewers, schools, etc. More than 11,000 camp dwellers were resettled into 10 different neighborhoods before the PLO, using intimidation tactics, ended the program.

 

Year on year as more Israeli settlements are built illegally on Palestinian land, as more and more Palestinians are driven off, as there resources are taken away from them, soon there won't be any land left to make a viable Palestinian homeland.  If that isn't ethnic cleansing then I don't know what is!

 

I agree that the settlements aren't helpful; but you're showing an absolutely fascinating mindset here:  The UN-designated territory for the Jewish state isn't solely "Jewish land"--there's a right to return for Palestinians--but the UN-designated territory for the Palestinian state is solely Palestinian land, and never mind about how many Jews lived there in Solomonic, Roman, Ottoman, or even Mandate times. 

 

 

 

You realize that that video was put together by a satirist, right?  Start having a friendly conversation with any kid at a military equipment show, ask him "how many of the enemy will you kill?", and you can get him to say pretty much anything. 

 

 

 

Israel is not and has not been under any threat of destruction since 1973.  That was when the last time another nation attacked Israel.  Since then no Arab nation has attacked Israel, however Israel has on many occasions attacked its neighbours.  The genocide against the Palestinians shares many similarities with the holocaust. 

 

Oh, no.  Rocket attacks?  Sure.  Property damage?  Yup.  Kidnapping?  Yeah.  Death?  Of course. 

 

But none of that's destruction.  Nothing to get worked up about.

 

And, yeah.  The Arab nations gave up on open warfare--for now--because every time they tried it, they got squashed.  That doesn't mean they are willing to coexist--if it did, they'd have extended formal recognition.  It just means they try to get third parties to do their bidding.

 

 

 

 

Pretty despicable, although the politician's response may be worth reading.

 

At any rate:  I'm not advocating taking people who think like this and putting them on Palestinian land (remember, I've already agreed with you that the settlements are a bad idea).  You, however, are bound and determined to put people of similar sentiments--but directed against Jews--directly in the Jewish heartland.

 

As a matter of practical reality, Israel will agree to that only slightly before you agree to allow the National Rifle Association set up a "George W. Bush Memorial Ammo Shop & Shootin' Gallery" in your backyard.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Interesting video, with some glaring inaccuracies, this article seems very balanced and historically accurate:

 http://www.palestineinformation.org/history.htm

 

From the "About Us" portion of the site:

 

The Palestine Solidarity Committee -- Seattle supports Palestinians in their struggle for the fundamental right of self-determination

[Latter Days Guy]

The issue of media bias is not primary to this discussion.  However, those of us in the U.S. who are more conservative, and who are rigorous about our spirituality, would more often than not describe our "mainstream media" (NYT, Wa. Post, CNN, etc.) to be center-left, and neutral-to-hostile towards faith. 

 

Concerning Israel, the majority of the world's nations, and therefore media, seem hostile towards its existence.  It is a problem.  The Arab nations do not like it, and they are oil-rich.  The Palestinians can play the poor victims of Israel's military might (often playing on America's unspoken racial guilt).

 

So, no, I'm not that trusting.  The United Nations (including UNICEF) seems to have treated Israel as the Goliath against the Palestinians, whereas I see Israel as the David against the Arab-Muslim Goliath.  So, when it badgers a nation that has been on a war footing, bunkered down now for 6 decades plus, I'm skeptical.  Sure, it would be sweet if Israel's prisons were more like Norway's.  However, Norway is not surrounded by anti-Norwegian genocidists, nor does it have cute 11-year old Swedish kids walking into their civilian crowds with military grade munitions.

Really?  The majority of European countries are very much pro Israel, they are even included in the Eurovision Song Contest and they aren't even in Europe.  The EU is very much pro Israel and falls over itself to defend any and all things Israeli.  

Israel is without doubt the military superpower of the region, having the 4th largest military in the world, a nuclear power that could annihilate every other neighbour with a flick of a switch.  Hardly the small powerless nation you seem to be implying in your David vs Goliath analogy.  That you condone the way Israel treats child detainees speaks volumes about the moral decay prevalent in US society today, that children should be subjected to the abuse they receive in Israeli prisons should cause outrage against Israel not support for it.

[Latter Days Guy]

 

All this boils down to "Israelis should just lie back, think of England, take their lumps, and accept daily rocket attacks as normal".

 

I reject that mentality; and I daresay you would too if it were the Welsh, rather than the Israelis, facing three random detonations on their territory per day at the hands of a known foe who admitted they were trying to kill/maim noncombatants. 

 

Not at all, but that doesn't mean they should go and lob tons of ordinance onto civilians in response.  There has been a peace deal on the table for a long time which would solve all the problems.  The creation of a homeland for the Palestinians, recognition of and peace treaties with all the Arab nations with Israel.  Why are they so adamant that they won't come to the table to discuss it?  Because they want all the land for themselves and have seen over the last 60 plus years that at the end of the day nothing will be done if they decide not to engage in peace talks.

 

Hmm.  Most of the sites I could see on imprisoned Palestinian children attributed these arrests to at least the pretext of attacks on Israeli police/IDF forces.  If that's not why Israel is detaining Palestinian children, what's the reason? 

 

And, if IDF forces aren't supposed to detain these little punks; and aren't supposed to use nonlethal force against them--what, pray tell, are they supposed to do?  Smile at them and hand them daisies?

 

 

Morsi's statements about Israel were all over the map.  Before his election Morsi was on record calling for the treaty's nullification; and while he moderated his tone post-election many of his fellow partymembers retained that position.

 

 

International law isn't a joke, but it's not a suicide pact either.

 

As for withdrawal as a cure-all:  Hasn't Israel withdrawn from Sinai--and forcibly expel their own citizens who had settled there, at gunpoint?  Haven't they withdrawn time and again from Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon, only to see those regions used again for attacks against their heartland? 

Your assurance that if Israel just leaves Gaza and the West Bank alone, this time things will be different, smacks of one of Lucy Van Pelt's perennially broken promises to Charlie Brown about yanking the football as he's about to kick a field goal.  Only in this case, it's Israeli lives on the line.

Oh, well, as long as you believe it . . .

 

​If a two state solution is going to work, there has to be a withdrawal of Israel forces from Palestinian lands.  You cannot have peace when your occupying the land of those you are seeking peace with.   

 

Israel acted far more aggressively to punish the Israelis responsible for that action, than Brigham Young did to punish the perpetrators of Mountain Meadows.  There was a substantial popular movement within Israel itself that the perpetrators should be punished (contrast this with the silence, or even celebration on Palestinian streets, with the death of every Israeli).

 

As for the Israeli resettlement programs, though, consider this article from the Christian Science Monitor:

 

In the early 1970s, Israel initiated what it called the "build your own home" program. A half a dunam of land outside the camps (equal to about an eighth of an acre) was given to Palestinians who then financed the purchase of building materials and, usually with friends, erected a home. Israel provided the infrastructure: sewers, schools, etc. More than 11,000 camp dwellers were resettled into 10 different neighborhoods before the PLO, using intimidation tactics, ended the program.

 

 

I agree that the settlements aren't helpful; but you're showing an absolutely fascinating mindset here:  The UN-designated territory for the Jewish state isn't solely "Jewish land"--there's a right to return for Palestinians--but the UN-designated territory for the Palestinian state is solely Palestinian land, and never mind about how many Jews lived there in Solomonic, Roman, Ottoman, or even Mandate times. 

 

This is where the land swaps come into play.

 

You realize that that video was put together by a satirist, right?  Start having a friendly conversation with any kid at a military equipment show, ask him "how many of the enemy will you kill?", and you can get him to say pretty much anything. 

 

Yes.

 

Oh, no.  Rocket attacks?  Sure.  Property damage?  Yup.  Kidnapping?  Yeah.  Death?  Of course. 

 

My comment was about attacks from the surrounding Arab nations, there has been no wars between Arab states and Israel since the end of the 1973 war.  

 

But none of that's destruction.  Nothing to get worked up about.

 

And, yeah.  The Arab nations gave up on open warfare--for now--because every time they tried it, they got squashed.  That doesn't mean they are willing to coexist--if it did, they'd have extended formal recognition.  It just means they try to get third parties to do their bidding.

 

 

Pretty despicable, although the politician's response may be worth reading.

 

A response after she removed the FB page and all its awful comments from view.

 

At any rate:  I'm not advocating taking people who think like this and putting them on Palestinian land (remember, I've already agreed with you that the settlements are a bad idea).  You, however, are bound and determined to put people of similar sentiments--but directed against Jews--directly in the Jewish heartland.

 

Not at all as the Jewish settlements are in the occupied territories and are illegal.  There would be no Palestinian settlements within the heartland of Israel.  On the whole I think Israel comes out of the two state solution with the best deal, the Palestinians having offered to live in only 22% of the land that was originally partitioned to them in 1948.

 

As a matter of practical reality, Israel will agree to that only slightly before you agree to allow the National Rifle Association set up a "George W. Bush Memorial Ammo Shop & Shootin' Gallery" in your backyard.

 

Which of course would never happen due to our strict gun laws in the UK.