Guest Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) As I just mentioned above, same gender attraction is not a choice, it is a state of being (not everyone agrees with me on this point, but that's okay). I've been searching my old posts for my views on this but I can't find it, so I'm just going to restate it here. We believe Gender is an Eternal Trait. Basically, from pre-mortal existence through to the Celestial Kingdom we are either male or female. Now, we also believe that the mortal probation is a state where imperfection is allowed and that our spirits are to overcome these challenges and conflicts caused by imperfections with the help of Christ's atonement to, hopefully, perfect us. With this in mind, I believe that homosexuality may be: 1.) The Eternal Gender matches the mortal physical gender but a psychological imperfection causes a conflict between the Eternal Gender and the mortal gender identity. For example, a spiritual male born a male but is gay (either gay at birth or developed gay tendencies). 2.) The Eternal Gender matches the psychological gender but a physical imperfection causes a conflict between the Eternal Gender and the physical gender. For example, a spiritual female born a male but is gay. 3.) The Eternal Gender does not match either physical or psychological gender. For example - heterosexual people who receive spiritual revelations intended for the opposite sex. (Do these even exist?) Anyway, in any of these cases, unless we receive revelation from God on what the person's eternal gender is, there's really no way of knowing what it is. So, the policy of the Church is to have the person live according to his physical gender characteristics when it comes to his gender role in the Church and the covenants to the best of his abilities. Christ's atonement bridges the rest. Edited April 13, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstarfall Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 there's really no way of knowing what it is. So, the policy of the Church is to have the person live according to his physical gender characteristics when it comes to his gender role in the Church and the covenants to the best of his abilities. Christ's atonement bridges the rest.I haven't got a clue why Gender Identity is even a thing, or why sexual attraction doesn't always match up with your gender, but I know that I am eternally grateful that my physical gender and my gender identity coincide, because I can only barely fathom what it is like for those that feel like their gender identity is different from their physical gender. That's pretty much all I have to say on the subject because I feel terribly unqualified to try to explain any of that. Although I did say a few more things in the Bruce Jenner thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 As I just mentioned above, same gender attraction is not a choice, it is a state of being (not everyone agrees with me on this point, but that's okay). If person X is attracted to gender Y, then it is not illogical for person X to desire to pursue a relationship with said gender Y. Thus that course of action is logical, and therefore valid (validity: the quality of being logically or factually sound; soundness or cogency). But let me clarify that just because it is logical, does not make it moral, leading into my next point. One can claim this is "logical" all they want, and it will still never align with the gospel, the principles of agency, and the Atonement. And the exact thing that you are attempting to validate with this sort of rhetoric is homosexuality itself. But it simply does not work, nor will it ever work to do so, because the only so-called "validation" for homosexuality is desire, and desire, of itself, can never logically validate anything -- despite what Hollywood has tried so very hard to teach us. Woah woah woah... let's not take my words out of context. The topic of this thread is "How to discuss the gospel with homosexuals...". I am not discussing the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality. I am discussing their perspective because a large part of having a civil conversation with someone, is understanding where they are coming from. So whether their actions are right or wrong is not my point at all. My point is, try to see through their eyes, so that you can figure out how to talk to them. The point I infer is that because they "just want" and see something-or-another as unfair, we have to accommodate that view and see it as a "valid" ideology. I reject that. Someone can fully well comprehend that another's views are messed up and have no validity whatsoever and still love them, treat them with compassion, and even empathize with them. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstarfall Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) I think you see this as a far different conversation than I do. Maybe we just can't see eye to eye on this at all. But all I am saying is that people like to be understood. I am in no way trying to day you should agree with these ideas. I'm just saying that you will probably have an easier time conversing with people about them if you understand them. And once again I will state that just because an idea is logical, does not make it a good idea. Nor does it mean you should support it. For an example of a bad and logical idea, see a modest proposal Edited April 19, 2015 by davidstarfall The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) I think you see this as a far different conversation than I do. Maybe we just can't see eye to eye on this at all. But all I am saying is that people like to be understood. I am in no way trying to day you should agree with these ideas. I'm just saying that you will probably have an easier time conversing with people about them if you understand them. And once again I will state that just because an idea is logical, does not make it a good idea. Nor does it mean you should support it. For an example of a bad and logical idea, see Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" I can respect that (I don't 100% agree...but close enough). My intention in injecting my unsolicited response to your post was to clarify things that are all too commonly (in my opinion) misunderstood. So yes, not the same conversational point as you intended, but (once more, imo) important nonetheless. Edited April 14, 2015 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstarfall Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Ah okay, I can respect that. Are we a little clearer now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted April 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) FWIW...I just got back from a blissful 5 day reprieve from the internet (aside from looking for houses to rent in Virginia) Before I left I did unfriend the guy. My two points in even entering into a discussion with this guy was to defend Christianity and children. Blasphemous memes about our church, Jesus Christ and Christian churches in general kept showing up on his page, especially after General Conference. He especially took offense at Elder Perry's remark about counterfeit relationships. He posted a nice picture of a gay family with kids stating that there was nothing counterfeit about them. I pointed out that no matter how beautiful the kids were or handsome the fathers, the kids were still missing a mom in the picture which was painfully obvious. Those kids WILL miss having a mom at some point and they will hurt. It's inevitable. I just stated it as fact. I was hit in return with so much rude sarcasm and belittling of my character, my faith and who knows what. I quit reading after a few sentences and just unfriended the guy. If he is unwilling to make a single concession for Jesus or for those kids, I want nothing to do with him- ever again. there is no compromising with him. He won't give an inch. I have tried to be civil with him for the last few years. His haughty sarcasm has gotten progressively worse. I'm just done with it all. Edited April 15, 2015 by carlimac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syme Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 It's tricky to discuss this with homosexuals because society constantly reminds us that sexuality is equivalent to your race, i.e. you were born with something that defines you as a person, makes you an outcast and can never be changed (I don't assert one way or the other, but it's not an established fact like society wants to believe). That means if you try to bring up marriage or anything similar from an LDS view, they take the defensive, because you couldn't possibly understand what it's like to be gay (according to them). That's why it's futile, because no matter what you say, your opinion is mere conjecture because you're not gay, you don't know what it's like to feel out of place, etc. And if you ARE gay, and LDS, then obviously you've been brainwashed, like me :) I applaud you carlimac for standing as a witness even in the darkest corners of the internet, but I think you did the right thing to just forget him. carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) It's pretty simple really, you share the gospel the same as you would with anyone else. The good news is for everyone and Christ's atonement can change ALL who humble themselves and come unto him. Edited April 15, 2015 by bytor2112 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstarfall Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 FWIW...I just got back from a blissful 5 day reprieve from the internet (aside from looking for houses to rent in Virginia) Before I left I did unfriend the guy. My two points in even entering into a discussion with this guy was to defend Christianity and children. Blasphemous memes about our church, Jesus Christ and Christian churches in general kept showing up on his page, especially after General Conference. He especially took offense at Elder Perry's remark about counterfeit relationships. He posted a nice picture of a gay family with kids stating that there was nothing counterfeit about them. I pointed out that no matter how beautiful the kids were or handsome the fathers, the kids were still missing a mom in the picture which was painfully obvious. Those kids WILL miss having a mom at some point and they will hurt. It's inevitable. I just stated it as fact. I was hit in return with so much rude sarcasm and belittling of my character, my faith and who knows what. I quit reading after a few sentences and just unfriended the guy. If he is unwilling to make a single concession for Jesus or for those kids, I want nothing to do with him- ever again. there is no compromising with him. He won't give an inch. I have tried to be civil with him for the last few years. His haughty sarcasm has gotten progressively worse. I'm just done with it all. Its sad that they have such animosity toward the church. Hopefully someday their hearts will soften and they may be receptive at some other time. But for now we can leave it in the Lord's hands. carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstarfall Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 i.e. you were born with something that defines you as a person, makes you an outcast and can never be changed (I don't assert one way or the other, but it's not an established fact like society wants to believe).Yeah.. this is unfortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Christ's atonement can change ALL who humble themselves and come unto him. ^ this. (bold emphasis mine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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