Meet the Mormons - Charity or Profit?

[lagarthaaz]

I'm having a bit of a discussion with a local LDS bookstore that is now selling 'Meet the Mormons' for around $20AU a copy - the profits of which go to their business. I checked and people can also download a copy from Amazon for under $5.

 

This confuses me a bit - as I was under the impression that the documentary was produced officially by the church, and was meant to be a missionary tool with any surplus 'profit' or 'proceeds' being donated to the Red Cross.  I got this impression from the official 'Meet the Mormons' website which states:

In the latest example in a long history of working together, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) has donated all net proceeds* from the theatrical release of Meet the Mormons, totalling $1.8 million, to the American Red Cross.

 

Ok, great - our ticket money went towards the Red Cross donation. So now what happens with all of the dvd and download releases? How does a venture that was supposed to be for a non-profit church organization, become a venture where the church supplies private businesses with copies of the dvd to sell for profit?  I feel quite miffed that private businesses are trying to make a buck from what was meant to be a missionary/charity tool - if feels very wrong to me.

 

I'm just trying to understand what's happening...perhaps someone who is more savvy about such things can enlighten me?  

[pam]

Only the box office proceeds were to be donated to the Red Cross.  From Mormon Newsroom:

 

From the start, the church announced that the movie’s net box office proceeds would be given to the American Red Cross. U.S. box office receipts totaled just over $6 million, making it one of the top 40 documentaries of all time. After theater and distribution costs, net proceeds came in just under $1.8 million. The Church’s donation to the Red Cross was an even $1.8 million.

 

Any dvd distribution etc didn't fall under the agreement regarding proceeds going to the Red Cross.

 

 

I just purchased the movie from Deseret Book.  They were selling for $7.99 USD.

[lagarthaaz]

Only the box office proceeds were to be donated to the Red Cross.  From Mormon Newsroom:

 

From the start, the church announced that the movie’s net box office proceeds would be given to the American Red Cross. U.S. box office receipts totaled just over $6 million, making it one of the top 40 documentaries of all time. After theater and distribution costs, net proceeds came in just under $1.8 million. The Church’s donation to the Red Cross was an even $1.8 million.

 

Any dvd distribution etc didn't fall under the agreement regarding proceeds going to the Red Cross.

 

 

I just purchased the movie from Deseret Book.  They were selling for $7.99 USD.

 

Thanks Pam, yes I do get it that the box office proceeds went to charity and that's all great. But isn't the doco officially produced by the church? If so, then why would they let private enterprise sell copies of this missionary/charity tool?  I thought they would make it available from the Distribution Centre for a minimal cost, not sell it to private businesses to profit from.

[Jane_Doe]

Thanks Pam, yes I do get it that the box office proceeds went to charity and that's all great. But isn't the doco officially produced by the church? If so, then why would they let private enterprise sell copies of this missionary/charity tool?  I thought they would make it available from the Distribution Centre for a minimal cost, not sell it to private businesses to profit from.

 

* Jane pulls up the DC website and looks for the movie * Huh, it's not there.  Strange.  I don't know why.

 

I don't know about the Ausie prices of it / other movies, so I'll have to go with the American ones.

 

Amazon: Meet The Mormons DVD $8.  Big Eyes DVD $15 (typical pricing for the first week of a new DVD).  Walmart has the same prices.  

 

Let's assume that it costs the same for both movies to print the DVD's, package, ship, store overhead.  I can't say about what Meet the Mormons profit is, but Big Eyes is making at least $7 on each DVD that Mormons is not.  In fact, I'm not sure how much profit at all could be said for an $8 DVD, given printing/shipping costs....  

 

So, in summary I'm not sure how much "profit" the church is making from the Meet the Mormons sales.  Probably not much.  

[Backroads]

Perhaps I should have bought the DVD. Digital copy cost me 8.99$ on Amazon. But I'm addicted to digital movies. So much less clutter.

[Jane_Doe]

Perhaps I should have bought the DVD. Digital copy cost me 8.99$ on Amazon. But I'm addicted to digital movies. So much less clutter.

 

Hey, I'll pay a dollar to have less mess in my house!

[Crypto]

Many types of open source software which is free, can be repackaged(compiled) and sold by a company, So long as the source is provided free of charge.

Is it wrong? Not really. Some people will only buy a product (as in get it only if they Have to pay) even if a free alternative exists. (Like some of my family members and anti-virus software)

Independent for profit companies excel at distribution. Seeing as there is a variance of price, I would guess that this is the case.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Crypto

[Guest]

Deseret Book also sells scriptures, teaching materials, etc.

[pam]

Thanks Pam, yes I do get it that the box office proceeds went to charity and that's all great. But isn't the doco officially produced by the church? If so, then why would they let private enterprise sell copies of this missionary/charity tool?  I thought they would make it available from the Distribution Centre for a minimal cost, not sell it to private businesses to profit from.

 

Isn't it better that some private businesses are selling it?  I mean that gets it out to more people and passes the word on and let's people see the lives of some Mormons.  Selling it at the distribution center would be selling to a very limited audience (pretty much just Mormons) and it was to be used as a missionary tool as you stated.  

 

Personally I don't see that some businesses would be selling very many copies if they are in an area that doesn't have a large Mormon population.  So not that much profit there.  And I like that it is now available to so many people including non members.

[lagarthaaz]

* Jane pulls up the DC website and looks for the movie * Huh, it's not there.  Strange.  I don't know why.

 

I don't know about the Ausie prices of it / other movies, so I'll have to go with the American ones.

 

Amazon: Meet The Mormons DVD $8.  Big Eyes DVD $15 (typical pricing for the first week of a new DVD).  Walmart has the same prices.  

 

Let's assume that it costs the same for both movies to print the DVD's, package, ship, store overhead.  I can't say about what Meet the Mormons profit is, but Big Eyes is making at least $7 on each DVD that Mormons is not.  In fact, I'm not sure how much profit at all could be said for an $8 DVD, given printing/shipping costs....  

 

So, in summary I'm not sure how much "profit" the church is making from the Meet the Mormons sales.  Probably not much.  

 

It's not on the DC website - I have been looking for a while.

 

I'm not saying the church is making a 'profit' for any spurious reasons. My guess is that they are passing on the product to independent distributors at cost, as a missionary tool.

 

But it does seem wrong to me that secondary distributors are now making a profit (no matter how small)  from the sale of the dvd or download. Add up the 'small' profit by thousands and it can be quite lucrative for a small business.  It's kind of like taking the products from lds.org Distribution Center (made at cost and passed on to church members as cheaply as possible) and then selling them off for a few dollars extra. There are businesses that do this too. 

 

If 'Meet the Mormons' was made as a commercial venture, I wouldn't even question how it's being sold.  It's just that my initial impression was that this was a church made production, with the aim of any surplus proceeds being donated to charity.

[pam]

 

 

If 'Meet the Mormons' was made as a commercial venture, I wouldn't even question how it's being sold.  It's just that my initial impression was that this was a church made production, with the aim of any surplus proceeds being donated to charity.

 

To me it was a commercial venture with the profit from the box office sales to be donated to charity.  To me a commercial venture is when a profit is to be made.  There was a profit on the box office sales.  What the Church chose to do with the proceeds of this commercial venture was donate it to charity.

[Jane_Doe]

It's not on the DC website - I have been looking for a while.

 

I'm not saying the church is making a 'profit' for any spurious reasons. My guess is that they are passing on the product to independent distributors at cost, as a missionary tool.

 

But it does seem wrong to me that secondary distributors are now making a profit (no matter how small)  from the sale of the dvd or download. Add up the 'small' profit by thousands and it can be quite lucrative for a small business.  It's kind of like taking the products from lds.org Distribution Center (made at cost and passed on to church members as cheaply as possible) and then selling them off for a few dollars extra. There are businesses that do this too. 

 

If 'Meet the Mormons' was made as a commercial venture, I wouldn't even question how it's being sold.  It's just that my initial impression was that this was a church made production, with the aim of any surplus proceeds being donated to charity.

 

 

The church made no profit off the ticket sales (it gave the money to Red Cross), and at this cheap of sales, I don't see them making money off the DVD's.

 

Will Amazon make a little money off of it?  Sure.  Just like the movies theaters made a little money off of ticket sales.  That's just how distribution works.   It's not exactly like the church can say "no Amazon, you're not allowed make money from selling this movie!".  

 

The goal of the movie was to make a good movie about Mormon people, and not have it be a for-profit Church venture.  The goal was never to rack up money for Red Cross (that was a nice side effect though).

Edited April 12, 2015 by Jane_Doe

[lagarthaaz]

Deseret Book also sells scriptures, teaching materials, etc.

 

Yes, but I was under the impression that Deseret Books identifies the product as originating from the Distribution Centre products, and passes them on at the same price? 

 

An interesting article in the following link on how the church closed up to a dozen distribution centers in 2011 and consolidated with Deseret Books to take over selling these items at cost. Deseret Books maintains it makes no profit from this venture:  

http://www.motleyvision.org/2011/distinguishing-between-distribution-and-deseret-book/

[lagarthaaz]

Isn't it better that some private businesses are selling it?  I mean that gets it out to more people and passes the word on and let's people see the lives of some Mormons.  Selling it at the distribution center would be selling to a very limited audience (pretty much just Mormons) and it was to be used as a missionary tool as you stated.  

 

Personally I don't see that some businesses would be selling very many copies if they are in an area that doesn't have a large Mormon population.  So not that much profit there.  And I like that it is now available to so many people including non members.

 

I wouldn't care if it were sold on a non-profit basis as a missionary tool. 

 

But this was a church production - made, promoted and distributed by the church (from, I assume, church funds that come from all of us). Churches are supposed to be non-profit organizations for tax purposes aren't they?

 

In Australia, the official membership stands at 143,891 (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org.au/facts-and-statistics/).  Even if only half of that number are active, and half of that number again buy the dvd or download, it could be quite profitable for a small business.  Businesses need to make a profit to survive of course, but this particular production being used to make money just doesn't sit well with me.

[pam]

I wouldn't care if it were sold on a non-profit basis as a missionary tool. 

 

But this was a church production - made, promoted and distributed by the church (from, I assume, church funds that come from all of us). Churches are supposed to be non-profit organizations for tax purposes aren't they?

 

In Australia, the official membership stands at 143,891 (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org.au/facts-and-statistics/).  Even if only half of that number are active, and half of that number again buy the dvd or download, it could be quite profitable for a small business.  Businesses need to make a profit to survive of course, but this particular production being used to make money just doesn't sit well with me.

 

I have no idea what funds were used to make this movie.  For all I know, it was made from their commercial side and not from monies collected from the members of the church such as tithing etc.  I'm guessing more their commercial side.

[pam]

Yes, but I was under the impression that Deseret Books identifies the product as originating from the Distribution Centre products, and passes them on at the same price? 

 

An interesting article in the following link on how the church closed up to a dozen distribution centers in 2011 and consolidated with Deseret Books to take over selling these items at cost. Deseret Books maintains it makes no profit from this venture:  

http://www.motleyvision.org/2011/distinguishing-between-distribution-and-deseret-book/

 

I don't think that's true. There are tons of things sold as Deseret Book that was never distributed through the distribution center.  Deseret Book is a money making venture in most cases.

 

Now there are some where you can purchase some limited items such as temple garments etc.  

[Guest]

What's your opinion on the movie theaters making money off the ticket sales? Do you also have a problem with that? Because... It's kinda the same thing...

I'm not sure if the Church itself made money off of DVD sales beyond recouping the cost to make them. But even if they did, I don't see the problem with that because it will just make the production of more movies like this one that much easier... Because, if you think about it, the Church doesn't make a habit of making Church Leaders millionaires out of Church monies... Profits from commercial ventures goes right back into supporting the Church's many many many programs.

Edited April 12, 2015 by anatess

[Crypto]

I wouldn't care if it were sold on a non-profit basis as a missionary tool. 

 

But this was a church production - made, promoted and distributed by the church (from, I assume, church funds that come from all of us). Churches are supposed to be non-profit organizations for tax purposes aren't they?

I have a few questions, some what rhetorical. Are profits good, bad, both, neutral? Why does this make a difference to you? Do you see it as some sort of trickle down priestcraft?

 

If an independent company wouldn't make money off of selling a service would they? Probably not.

Considering this, the premise that they probably wouldn't sell  if they didn't make a profit, And Assuming that more people would likely see the movie/buy the movie because it is provided among more non-demographic specific stores.

Would you prefer that individuals who might be moved upon by the holy spirit not have the opportunity to learn and hear about a peculiar people and thus lead them to the Gospel?

Some people seek out the church on their own accord without being lead by missionaries and members, but by the holy ghost. I see this as another opportunity for those who seek to find.

 

[lagarthaaz]

I don't think that's true. There are tons of things sold as Deseret Book that was never distributed through the distribution center.  Deseret Book is a money making venture in most cases.

 

Now there are some where you can purchase some limited items such as temple garments etc.  

 

What's not true? That Deseret Book merged with the church to sell Distribution Center items?  Yes D.Books is a money-making venture, but the church is now using it to sell DC products for the same price to church members. So when we see the items in their catalogue, we are getting them at Distribution Center prices. Their other non-DC products though, are sold for a profit.

 

Six Deseret Book stores have been selling Church-produced materials and products since late 2009. Under the new agreement, Deseret Book will serve as an agent for Distribution Services and offer these materials at additional Deseret Book store locations according to prices and policies established by the Church. Both parties say the agreement will create a convenient shopping experience for customers and allow a more efficient use of Church resources. (bold print, mine).  See this link from lds newsroom: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/distribution-stores-to-be-consolidated-with-deseret-book

[pam]

What's not true? That Deseret Book merged with the church to sell Distribution Center items?  Yes D.Books is a money-making venture, but the church is now using it to sell DC products for the same price to church members. So when we see the items in their catalogue, we are getting them at Distribution Center prices. Their other non-DC products though, are sold for a profit.

 

Six Deseret Book stores have been selling Church-produced materials and products since late 2009. Under the new agreement, Deseret Book will serve as an agent for Distribution Services and offer these materials at additional Deseret Book store locations according to prices and policies established by the Church. Both parties say the agreement will create a convenient shopping experience for customers and allow a more efficient use of Church resources. (bold print, mine).  See this link from lds newsroom: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/distribution-stores-to-be-consolidated-with-deseret-book

 

This is what you originally said:  Yes, but I was under the impression that Deseret Books identifies the product as originating from the Distribution Centre products, and passes them on at the same price? 

 

You gave a perception that all things sold at Deseret Book originated in the Distribution center which is not true.  That's how I took your comment anyway.

[lagarthaaz]

I have no idea what funds were used to make this movie.  For all I know, it was made from their commercial side and not from monies collected from the members of the church such as tithing etc.  I'm guessing more their commercial side.

 

I don't know where the money came from either, and definitely have NO problem with the church funding a film that is made as a missionary tool with the proceeds or any 'profit' being donated to charity. So when the Deseret News wrote an article saying the church had funded the film, I was fine with it.

 

Though the film was financed by the church, its net proceeds will be donated to charity...

Charged with producing the film for the Legacy Theater in Salt Lake City and for visitors’ centers across the globe, Treu pitched the project to the LDS Church’s First Presidency in late 2010. After the project was finished, church leaders decided to expand the film's release due to the positive response from both LDS and non-LDS sample audiences.

Treu said the objective was to give the film broader reach, making it available to members and their friends on the big screen — in their own cities and towns — and then on cable TV, Internet streaming and in the Legacy Theater and visitors' centers.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865609123/LDS-Church-announces-feature-length-documentary-Meet-the-Mormons.html?pg=all

 

So, if the purpose is for the documentary to be a missionary tool that becomes widely available, and an opportunity to donate to charity, then private enterprise has no business putting profits in their own pocket in my opinion. 

[lagarthaaz]

This is what you originally said:  Yes, but I was under the impression that Deseret Books identifies the product as originating from the Distribution Centre products, and passes them on at the same price? 

 

You gave a perception that all things sold at Deseret Book originated in the Distribution center which is not true.  That's how I took your comment anyway.

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer, I was only commenting on the sale of Distribution Center items with that comment, not all the other LDS products sold at Des Books. 

[lagarthaaz]

What's your opinion on the movie theaters making money off the ticket sales? Do you also have a problem with that? Because... It's kinda the same thing...

I'm not sure if the Church itself made money off of DVD sales beyond recouping the cost to make them. But even if they did, I don't see the problem with that because it will just make the production of more movies like this one that much easier... Because, if you think about it, the Church doesn't make a habit of making Church Leaders millionaires out of Church monies... Profits from commercial ventures goes right back into supporting the Church's many many many programs.

 

Yes, in fact I do have a problem with the movie theaters making money off this film. Unless they were on board with the church's original premise that all profits would be donated to charity. 

 

I have not suggested that this was about making money for any 'church leaders' at all - I know that is absolutely not the case.

 

I'm strictly referring to private enterprise/businesses now pocketing profits from a church financed production. If the original premise of the film was to promote the church and donate any proceeds to charity - then surely that needs to apply no matter who sells it. 

[pam]

Yes, in fact I do have a problem with the movie theaters making money off this film. Unless they were on board with the church's original premise that all profits would be donated to charity. 

 

I have not suggested that this was about making money for any 'church leaders' at all - I know that is absolutely not the case.

 

I'm strictly referring to private enterprise/businesses now pocketing profits from a church financed production. If the original premise of the film was to promote the church and donate any proceeds to charity - then surely that needs to apply no matter who sells it. 

 

And again...the ONLY proceeds that were to be donated were those from the box office tickets.   Also I don't think there was any agreement that ALL profit would be donated.  Only the profit that the Church made.

 

And of course theaters are going to make some kind of profit off of showing it.  That's what they are in business for.  Unless you are suggesting that the church should have paid the theaters to show the movies.  Which would cover all of their overhead.  Then what kind of proceeds to charity would there be left.  Not much.

[lagarthaaz]

I have a few questions, some what rhetorical. Are profits good, bad, both, neutral? Why does this make a difference to you? Do you see it as some sort of trickle down priestcraft?

 

If an independent company wouldn't make money off of selling a service would they? Probably not.

Considering this, the premise that they probably wouldn't sell  if they didn't make a profit, And Assuming that more people would likely see the movie/buy the movie because it is provided among more non-demographic specific stores.

Would you prefer that individuals who might be moved upon by the holy spirit not have the opportunity to learn and hear about a peculiar people and thus lead them to the Gospel?

Some people seek out the church on their own accord without being lead by missionaries and members, but by the holy ghost. I see this as another opportunity for those who seek to find.

 

 

I'm not against 'profit' per-se. 

 

Is it a form of priestcraft for private businesses to take a church produced film and sell if for a profit? I don't really understand the concept of 'priestcraft' enough to answer that.

 

If we're talking about preaching to 'get gain' as discussed in 2 Nephi 26:29, then yes, I suppose private lds business ventures taking an official church-made film and selling it to make a few bucks might qualify for that description.  Again though, my understanding of the meaning of priestcraft is superficial.

 

As for putting the film out there for independent distributors to reach a broader audience - I don't really think that most people will be exposed to it except by accidentally stumbling across it while searching for other things. For example I don't ever see anything about Zoroastrianism if I go to Amazon.com, and am unlikely to find any books on the subject unless I go specifically looking for it. 

 

I'd fathom a not-so-wild-guess that the majority of people who went to see the film are LDS, and the majority of people wanting to purchase their own copies are those same LDS.  It's most likely that only LDS will go searching on Amazon or other sites looking for this film - especially considering that it's LDS members who bought out the majority of the movie theater screenings (myself included). 

 

And as for the Holy Spirit moving people to find out about the gospel, that's gonna happen regardless of whether Amazon.com or independent church bookstores sell 'Meet the Mormons' or not.

Edited April 12, 2015 by lagarthaaz