Salvation And Eternal Progression A Cyclical Constant

[valkator]

I've been thinking about the 'plan of salvation' as understood within the LDS context and, in the attempt to see it more clearly from a personal standpoint, I have a few questions - or maybe observations(?) - that I want to share to see how far they are from the 'general' LDS interpretation. I'm not going to spell out the entire LDS 'plan of salvation', but offer how I see it operating based on my experience and understanding of reality.

Firstly, I should say that I do not, generally, disagree with the plan of salvation and do personally relate and resonate with it as I see it. However, I do not view the interpreted outline of it in linear terms - meaning that from the creation of the world to the 'end' - with exaltation, damnation, and so forth is not a straight line of 'once and for all' events -- but ever-present realities that are always in 'operation'. What do I mean?

All of these events that are projected into the past and into the future are, as I see things, happening within a constant 'now'. There is no 'set date' of a once and for all past creation of man, fall of man and atonement - as there is not a 'once and for all' movement into one of three 'future' kingdoms after a once and for all resurrection that takes places once and for all at a set 'time'. More specifically, we are constantly in a state of 'pre-existence' on the way to another state of 'pre-existence'. We view 'where we were' prior to being in our current form as a state of 'pre-mortal' or 'pre-existence'....and this current 'existence' will be such for us when we 'look back' after we've move on to 'wherever'. The 'plan of salvation', the work of Christ, and so forth, aren't simply realities of the linear past that relate only to this planet - but are never-ending and are always happening everywhere that 'creation' is occuring. I do understand why things would be taught in linear terms, given that human beings tend to only see things along a 'straight line' in terms of time and history. It's a useful way to relay the 'message', but I don't see it being limited in that way either. Going further...

The destination of 'where we go' at the 'end' of any one of our manifestations through form, typified by saying that we move into a celestial, terrestrial, or telestial realm, is dependent on what we 'do' and how we 'link' or 'participate' in the eternal 'plan of salvation' that is in operation in any given state of our existence...so to speak. And, this does not 'end'. In other words, after we exit our current form, we do not 'wait', in terms of 'time' as we understand it to be, to enter 'the next stage' in any of the three realms we may enter - and these are not, simply, 'final destinations'. The 'path' may be outlined in this linear fashion so that people might be able to understand it, somewhat, but again -- I do not relate to it at all that way. Ironically, we could end up 'back' in a celestial realm and just as conceivably 'fall' again if we do not 'progress' from 'there'. Eternal progression suggests that a next 'stage' cannot be the final realm one ends up within - though one may spend considerable 'time' there - depending on how we understand 'time'.

Finally, I should say that I'm not proposing 'reincarnation' as that would imply 'many lives' and I don't see life - mine or anyone else's - as being anything other than 'one life' -- regardless of the manifestations.

Any comments and questions are appreciated -- :)

Brigham Young has said, “… there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.”

[Brother Dorsey]

Dude...you're scaring me!

[Guest Yediyd]

He didn't scare me...he lost me after about the fourth sentence.

[Traveler]

I am not sure where you are going with your thinking but you do put forward some interesting ideas. You will note my handle – “The Traveler”. As such I hold to the notion that it is not in the destination or the arrival but the journey and the means that makes the difference.

I believe that most people cannot be happy and are doomed forever to be sad. Let me give a simple example. Most people would like to have a slim, healthy, sexy body but at the same time they want to eat the kind of foods that taste pleasant or sweet to them and they want to relax and take it easy. So there is a problem with happiness – ether someone eats and does what they enjoy and is unhappy with their body or they have the body they enjoy and are unhappy with having to exercise and eat food they do not enjoy.

The secret is to learn to love and enjoy doing the very things that will give you a slim, healthy, sexy body – now you can be happy.

I believe many look at eternal salvation in the same manner. If they suffer through this life then they will magically get everything they want in the next life. I think many such people will someday stand at the gates to the Celestial Kingdom – having proven themselves “worthy”, look in and realize this is not the place they want to be for eternity nor the opportunities they thought. Realizing their wasted life they will say, “This is not what I expected for all my sacrifice – is there not something more suited to me and what I what?” To which both the L-rd and Satan will respond together with a “YES!!!”

Too many think salvation has something to do with worthiness when in reality it is all about preparation. The purpose of the gospel, the priesthood and the callings is to prepare us to be happy in the Celestial Kingdom. I believe the great error is calling such preparation “Enduring to the End” – it sounds like such an eternal drag. It should be called “Learning to find happiness in the lessons and work-outs of eternal joy”.

The Traveler

[valkator]

I'm not sure I was going anywhere with my thoughts other than to see how congruent they may be within an LDs context. Like yourself, I see the journey as being the reality versus a 'set in stone' destination, per se. That may be the best way to characterize where I was going with that. :)

[Guest Yediyd]

I am not sure where you are going with your thinking but you do put forward some interesting ideas. You will note my handle – "The Traveler". As such I hold to the notion that it is not in the destination or the arrival but the journey and the means that makes the difference.

I believe that most people cannot be happy and are doomed forever to be sad. Let me give a simple example. Most people would like to have a slim, healthy, sexy body but at the same time they want to eat the kind of foods that taste pleasant or sweet to them and they want to relax and take it easy. So there is a problem with happiness – ether someone eats and does what they enjoy and is unhappy with their body or they have the body they enjoy and are unhappy with having to exercise and eat food they do not enjoy.

The secret is to learn to love and enjoy doing the very things that will give you a slim, healthy, sexy body – now you can be happy.

I believe many look at eternal salvation in the same manner. If they suffer through this life then they will magically get everything they want in the next life. I think many such people will someday stand at the gates to the Celestial Kingdom – having proven themselves "worthy", look in and realize this is not the place they want to be for eternity nor the opportunities they thought. Realizing their wasted life they will say, "This is not what I expected for all my sacrifice – is there not something more suited to me and what I what?" To which both the L-rd and Satan will respond together with a "YES!!!"

Too many think salvation has something to do with worthiness when in reality it is all about preparation. The purpose of the gospel, the priesthood and the callings is to prepare us to be happy in the Celestial Kingdom. I believe the great error is calling such preparation "Enduring to the End" – it sounds like such an eternal drag. It should be called "Learning to find happiness in the lessons and work-outs of eternal joy".

The Traveler

Traveler...That was a very inspiring post! Thank you!

[pam]

I've been thinking about the 'plan of salvation' as understood within the LDS context and, in the attempt to see it more clearly from a personal standpoint, I have a few questions - or maybe observations(?) - that I want to share to see how far they are from the 'general' LDS interpretation. I'm not going to spell out the entire LDS 'plan of salvation', but offer how I see it operating based on my experience and understanding of reality.

Firstly, I should say that I do not, generally, disagree with the plan of salvation and do personally relate and resonate with it as I see it. However, I do not view the interpreted outline of it in linear terms - meaning that from the creation of the world to the 'end' - with exaltation, damnation, and so forth is not a straight line of 'once and for all' events -- but ever-present realities that are always in 'operation'. What do I mean?

All of these events that are projected into the past and into the future are, as I see things, happening within a constant 'now'. There is no 'set date' of a once and for all past creation of man, fall of man and atonement - as there is not a 'once and for all' movement into one of three 'future' kingdoms after a once and for all resurrection that takes places once and for all at a set 'time'. More specifically, we are constantly in a state of 'pre-existence' on the way to another state of 'pre-existence'. We view 'where we were' prior to being in our current form as a state of 'pre-mortal' or 'pre-existence'....and this current 'existence' will be such for us when we 'look back' after we've move on to 'wherever'. The 'plan of salvation', the work of Christ, and so forth, aren't simply realities of the linear past that relate only to this planet - but are never-ending and are always happening everywhere that 'creation' is occuring. I do understand why things would be taught in linear terms, given that human beings tend to only see things along a 'straight line' in terms of time and history. It's a useful way to relay the 'message', but I don't see it being limited in that way either. Going further...

The destination of 'where we go' at the 'end' of any one of our manifestations through form, typified by saying that we move into a celestial, terrestrial, or telestial realm, is dependent on what we 'do' and how we 'link' or 'participate' in the eternal 'plan of salvation' that is in operation in any given state of our existence...so to speak. And, this does not 'end'. In other words, after we exit our current form, we do not 'wait', in terms of 'time' as we understand it to be, to enter 'the next stage' in any of the three realms we may enter - and these are not, simply, 'final destinations'. The 'path' may be outlined in this linear fashion so that people might be able to understand it, somewhat, but again -- I do not relate to it at all that way. Ironically, we could end up 'back' in a celestial realm and just as conceivably 'fall' again if we do not 'progress' from 'there'. Eternal progression suggests that a next 'stage' cannot be the final realm one ends up within - though one may spend considerable 'time' there - depending on how we understand 'time'.

Finally, I should say that I'm not proposing 'reincarnation' as that would imply 'many lives' and I don't see life - mine or anyone else's - as being anything other than 'one life' -- regardless of the manifestations.

Any comments and questions are appreciated -- :)

Brigham Young has said, “… there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.”

HUH????

[Guest Yediyd]

HUH????

Yeah, what SHE said!!!

[Gabelma]

[OK here goes lol its not doctrinal- my view has been that we are trying to view the eternities from a restricted view seat, but I do feel like I have never not been in some form or another and I will always be.

This Johnny Cash song lyrics (highwayman) kind of describes how I feel - whilst I don't believe in reincarnation as in we will return to this life time I do believe we have many lifetimes ahead in many forms. But if once I lose the veil and can see eternity differently I may change my mind lol -I do wonder if we are time travellers or if we go through eternity but every so often start right back as whatever came before spirits

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I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride

With sword and pistol by my side

Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade

Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade

The b****s hung me in the spring of twenty-five

But I am still alive.

I was a sailor. I was born upon the tide

And with the sea I did abide.

I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico

I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow

And when the yards broke off they said that I got killed

But I am living still.

I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide

Where steel and water did collide

A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado

I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below

They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound

But I am still around..I'll always be around..and around and around and

around and around

I fly a starship across the Universe divide

And when I reach the other side

I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can

Perhaps I may become a highwayman again

Or I may simply be a single drop of rain

But I will remain

And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..

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Do you read a lot of CS Lewis? I have some images from Narnia and the Great Divorce that put across more of how I feel.

Charley

[the_jason]

Maybe it's my own simpleness, but none of this really concerns me. The Lord has told me which commandments to follow. He has also told me what the result will be if I keep those commandments. I don't believe the Lord gives hidden meanings. He is a straightforward God. This is what you need to do. This is your reward if you do it. As long as I stick with that plan I cannot fail.

[Palerider]

I'm not sure I was going anywhere with my thoughts other than to see how congruent they may be within an LDs context. Like yourself, I see the journey as being the reality versus a 'set in stone' destination, per se. That may be the best way to characterize where I was going with that. :)

why not try LDS.org and you can study and read and maybe pray and ponder what you have read.....

[valkator]

I'm doing exactly that - and that is how I am relating to the Truth as I'm investigating. :)

[Palerider]

I'm doing exactly that - and that is how I am relating to the Truth as I'm investigating. :)

I applaud you for that..........