How do you treat homosexuals?

[Vort]

Because at a wedding I am not actively sinning.

 

What does this mean?

 

Is any support of perversion "sinning"?

 

If so, is homosexual "marriage" a perversion of the true purpose of marriage?

 

Do you picture God as someone with a clipboarded rule sheet, checking off every time you commit one of the forbidden actions listed thereon?

[Crypto]

Anyone else notice that  Guest_teamfamilywall_* now has the look of an account that has been removed? Replying to the original poster might no longer yield responses, I think.

[davidstarfall]

What does this mean?

 

Is any support of perversion "sinning"?

 

If so, is homosexual "marriage" a perversion of the true purpose of marriage?

 

Do you picture God as someone with a clipboarded rule sheet, checking off every time you commit one of the forbidden actions listed thereon?

Being present at something does not automatically mean I condone it.

[Crypto]

Being present at something does not automatically mean I condone it.

Present or participate?

Is this like aiding and abetting?

[davidstarfall]

Present or participate?

Is this like aiding and abetting?

 

The church recently helped pass a law protecting gay rights with respect to housing and employment in Utah. Does that mean that they condone gay behavior? Does that mean the church is helping gays sin more?

Love the sinner, not the sin.

[The Folk Prophet]

Because at a wedding I am not actively sinning.

 

Really...you need to remove the prurient value from the equation. Imagine you are a mother instead of a father, (a straight mother...just to be clear) or even eunuch. Is going to a strip club sinning? You have no lust. You're not enjoying the naked dancing. Still a sin? You're just there to support your daughter/friend/whoever.

[Crypto]

The church recently helped pass a law protecting gay rights with respect to housing and employment in Utah. Does that mean that they condone gay behavior? Does that mean the church is helping gays sin more?

Love the sinner, not the sin.

This can't be compared, it's a false analogy, two separate issues.

Allowing a person to live or work doesn't require an individual to go to a service that might be in conflict with a moral sentiment (Present, or participating).

I don't have an answer to what I brought up, but i'm willing to ask the question.

[The Folk Prophet]

Whereas I tend to see it sort of in line with what davidstarfall suggests as related to supporting the law being a form of condoning, I trust that the leaders of the church in this matter have greater insight that I do, and I expect that it was more likely a compromise related to the sustenance of religious freedom than an actual political cause the church took up because they've changed their tune, so to speak. But more importantly, as crypto points out, comparing the right to shelter and employment to the right to guilt your friends into coming to a celebration of your sins...or even the right to marry at all...not exactly apples to apples.

[Guest]

I'm grateful for a family where my nephew receives unconditional love and does not feel like an outcast. Some of the reactions of this board are truly shocking. I have no problem attending a gay marriage and will absolutely be there if he so chooses to commit his life to another human being. So we don't all agree, that's fine.

If you think that we don't all agree and that's just fine then why is it that it's okay for a homosexual to get married to whoever he chooses but it's not okay for me to choose to stay home because I don't want to go?

Is the ONLY WAY one expresses unconditional love is to BE at the wedding? Can't the homosexual love ME enough to understand why I can't go even as I love him unconditionally?

Why is this so one-sided?

Let's make this a less toxic scenario. Let's say my best friend LOVES horror movies. It is the highlight of his life to be able to attend the midnight opening show of Zombie Apocalypse In the Land of Vampires and Werewolves featuring a cameo by Godzilla.... I absolutely cannot watch a horror movie. So, is it my best friend who is so unloving for taking offense that I cannot go, or is it me who is unloving for not sucking it up?

Edited April 24, 2015 by anatess

[Guest]

Being present at something does not automatically mean I condone it.

Being absent at something does not automatically mean I hate you.

[Guest]

Anyone else notice that  Guest_teamfamilywall_* now has the look of an account that has been removed? Replying to the original poster might no longer yield responses, I think.

He asked to be removed because he had concerns with the security of the logon process. He's still lurking I'm sure.

[Guest]

The church recently helped pass a law protecting gay rights with respect to housing and employment in Utah. Does that mean that they condone gay behavior? Does that mean the church is helping gays sin more?

Love the sinner, not the sin.

Okay, pay really close attention in case you miss it...

... it's not against God's laws to live in a house and work a job.

[davidstarfall]

Being absent at something does not automatically mean I hate you.

Also true.

 

Just for clarity, I'm not trying to argue that one must go, or feel obligated to go, or that one should give in to peer pressure to go.

I'm simply saying that I don't think it is inherently sinful to go.

Edited April 24, 2015 by davidstarfall

[Guest]

Also true.

 

Just for clarity, I'm not trying to argue that one must go, or feel obligated to go, or that one should give in to peer pressure to go.

I'm simply saying that I don't think it is inherently sinful to go.

I don't think so either.

But yeah, my Catholic mother did not attend my Justice-of-the-Peace wedding and my wedding photos are not displayed with my siblings' wedding photos on the wall of her house. I have no doubt she loves me with all her heart. People ask me or my mother, where's your wedding photo? And my mom just says, she didn't have a Catholic wedding. And people nod and move on. No big deal really. And yeah, I wouldn't think she has abandoned her Catholic faith if she would have attended my wedding either. But, I completely understand why she refused to go.

[davidstarfall]

Okay, pay really close attention in case you miss it...

... it's not against God's laws to live in a house and work a job.

This is true.

[davidstarfall]

Whereas I tend to see it sort of in line with what davidstarfall suggests as related to supporting the law being a form of condoning, I trust that the leaders of the church in this matter have greater insight that I do, and I expect that it was more likely a compromise related to the sustenance of religious freedom than an actual political cause the church took up because they've changed their tune, so to speak. But more importantly, as crypto points out, comparing the right to shelter and employment to the right to guilt your friends into coming to a celebration of your sins...or even the right to marry at all...not exactly apples to apples.

Not saying one "should go", just saying that I don't personally find it morally reprehensible to go.

My main point is that just because you are helping someone does not mean you condone their actions.

[The Folk Prophet]

My main point is that just because you are helping someone does not mean you condone their actions.

 

Depends on what, exactly, you help them with. Help a gay person get into a house...not condoning anything. Help a gay person seek out their next gay lover...different story. Helping them out with their gay wedding falls much, much closer to the second then the first.

[davidstarfall]

Let's make this a less toxic scenario. Let's say my best friend LOVES horror movies. It is the highlight of his life to be able to attend the midnight opening show of Zombie Apocalypse In the Land of Vampires and Werewolves featuring a cameo by Godzilla.... I absolutely cannot watch a horror movie. So, is it my best friend who is so unloving for taking offense that I cannot go, or is it me who is unloving for not sucking it up?

Well... not going is not necessarily unloving... and going is not necessarily sinful... So as long as the spirit is with you, you are fine.

And slightly off topic... I also cannot watch horror movies. I just can't.

[davidstarfall]

Depends on what, exactly, you help them with. Help a gay person get into a house...not condoning anything. Help a gay person seek out their next gay lover...different story. Helping them out with their gay wedding falls much, much closer to the second then the first.

I'm just going to respond to this with a question...

Is it sinful of me to give my friend a lift to the store knowing full well that they are going to the store to buy cigarettes?

[The Folk Prophet]

and going is not necessarily sinful... 

 

What about the strip club analogy? You dropped that discussion. I'm still wondering how you label that as inherently sinful but not a gay wedding the same.

 

Can you explain how a gay wedding is not an inherently sinful event?

[The Folk Prophet]

Is it sinful of me to give my friend a lift to the store knowing full well that they are going to the store to buy cigarettes?

 

I don't know if it's "sinful", nor have I said that going to a gay wedding is necessarily "sinful", primarily in that sin requires knowledge, and doing something wrong when one doesn't know any better is not a sin. Of course that's an entirely different discussion, but I suspect what you're getting at is that you expect I would happily drive a friend to the store to buy cigarettes, alcohol, etc... I would not.

[davidstarfall]

What about the strip club analogy? You dropped that discussion. I'm still wondering how you label that as inherently sinful but not a gay wedding the same.

 

Can you explain how a gay wedding is not an inherently sinful event?

I'm not arguing about whether the event is sinful or not. I'm talking about whether me attending a social event that holds no validity in the eternities is sinful.

[davidstarfall]

I don't know if it's "sinful", nor have I said that going to a gay wedding is necessarily "sinful", primarily in that sin requires knowledge, and doing something wrong when one doesn't know any better is not a sin. Of course that's an entirely different discussion, but I suspect what you're getting at is that you expect I would happily drive a friend to the store to buy cigarettes, alcohol, etc... I would not.

Then.. all I'm saying, is that if one can compare this act to attending a gay wedding, then by going, I am not inherently sinning.

Are these exactly comparable? For me they are, for you they may not be. But that is the best way that I can illustrate my point.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not arguing about whether the event is sinful or not. I'm talking about whether me attending a social event that holds no validity in the eternities is sinful.

 

Well this gets to the root of the question now doesn't it? Is attending an event that is sinful the wrong choice or not? Because all things gay are so controversial we tried to take it out of that arena for consideration. You don't seem to want to reply.

 

Is your attending a a strip club in support of a friend, which holds no validity in the eternities, a good idea or a bad one? Really, is not the attendance, any way you cut it, showing acceptance and support of something you should not? Is not the daughter or friends choice to engage in this a destructive path, and is that not a very solid reason to not attend -- even if you aren't engaging in the nudie lust? Moreover, if for some reason you did attend, would you cheer her on? Would you clap for her "performance"? Would you congratulate her?

 

Then.. all I'm saying, is that if one can compare this act to attending a gay wedding, then by going, I am not inherently sinning.

Are these exactly comparable? For me they are, for you they may not be. But that is the best way that I can illustrate my point.

 

Does it matter if they're exactly comparable? I stated I would not do either. If you want to help your friend along his path towards dying possibly horribly of cancer that's your business.

[davidstarfall]

Is your attending a a strip club in support of a friend, which holds no validity in the eternities, a good idea or a bad one? Really, is not the attendance, any way you cut it, showing acceptance and support of something you should not? Is not the daughter or friends choice to engage in this a destructive path, and is that not a very solid reason to not attend -- even if you aren't engaging in the nudie lust? Moreover, if for some reason you did attend, would you cheer her on? Would you clap for her "performance"? Would you congratulate her?

Fine.. we can go there...

Lets say I attend this event. Exactly as you described. In fact.. I drove her there. I helped her get dressed. She enjoys it. I tell her that I am glad she is happy.

I am there for my friend. I helped her with something that is important to her (similarly to driving my friend to pick up cigarettes).

Why did I do this? Because I felt like it was the right thing to do. In fact I was prompted by the spirit to attend.

This act of love strengthens our friendship and our bond. We grow closer. She comes upon hard times. She opens up to me. I am able to share my testimony. She is converted to the Gospel, gets sealed in the temple, and has a happy family. 

Or maybe.. while I'm there, someone in the audience attacks her and I am there to save her life, and she rethinks her life and joins the church.

Apparently it was in God's plan that I be there for this person, so that eventually I could be a spiritual guide for them.

 

My point is... relationships are an important of the gospel. So my relationship with my friend, and maybe even my attendance at their "sinful" event, may possibly end up being a turning point in their life, and helps them find the gospel, and return to God.

 

Some of you may say that the spirit would never prompt you to do such a thing. And I would have to respectfully disagree with you. God works in mysterious ways. Therefore, I reject logic that says that attending such an event is inherently wrong and strictly always against God's will.

 

Some might also argue that God being all powerful, would just make things such that I do not need to attend such an event. But I reject that notion as well.