Baltimore riots

[Guest]

My friend on Facebook said it best:

 

""We demand social justice! Now, grab as many TVs as you can carry!"

God be with us, it's a sad day."

[unixknight]

I agree in concept, LP; but when you ask "where's the rage on behalf of the innocent who are victimized by power-drunk cops?", I reply "it was wasted on behalf of miserable goons like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, who were painted as innocent even though the evidence revealed them to be anything but".

The same people who told me I should be mad about those cases, tell me I should be mad about Freddie Gray. Maybe they're on to something this time--even a stopped clock is right twice a day, as the saying goes. But I can't help remembering the story of the boy who cried wolf and wondering whether there is some ulterior motive in play here.

 

I can understand that, but you really do have to take these things on a case by case basis, and look at it carefully.  I know how easy it is to become jaded, but ya gotta resist it.

 

Have you noticed that the ones NOT caught on video tend to be the models for dsproving excessive force, but the ones that ARE caught on video tend to prove excessive force?

 

The people who are angry are the people who believe, in their hearts, that if there was no video of Slager shooting Walter Scott, he would have been exonerated and would still be wearing a badge today.  We need to be constructive about things and address THAT problem, or you can bet there will be more riots in more cities.

 

Leaving for work now, and I'll be driving near or through the warzone.  If I get any interesting dashcam videos I'll share them with you guys.

Edited April 28, 2015 by unixknight

[Guest MormonGator]

Next time you're in town let me know and I'll treat you to lunch :)

 

 

   Amen to that! Baltimore has some really nice restaurants. 

[Vort]

The Balitimore Police admit there were "mistakes" in Freddie Grey's arrest. Mistakes? Mistakes? "Oops, so sorry we KILLED you." Where's the outrage among white people about THAT?

Indeed. Those darn white people, not stealing TVs when black folks get murdered.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

I can understand that, but you really do have to take these things on a case by case basis, and look at it carefully. I know how easy it is to become jaded, but ya gotta resist it.

Agreed.

Have you noticed that the ones NOT caught on video tend to be the models for dsproving excessive force, but the ones that ARE caught on video tend to prove excessive force?

No. But what I have noticed, is that the videos that exonerate cop behavior don't tend to get replayed ad nauseum on a 24-hour news cycle. Rather they get relegated to a blurb on page B-4 about how "internal reviews of body cam footage confirmed the officer's claim that he acted in self-defense, and no charges will be filed (darn it!)."

Police aren't immune from the old adage that power corrupts; and there are probably some sick departments out there. But we also need to be aware that we are being provided with a carefully constructed narrative that is calculated to make us see the situation in a certain way, and ultimately pave the way for specific social policy changes.

Leaving for work now, and I'll be driving near or through the warzone. If I get any interesting dashcam videos I'll share them with you guys.

Be safe. Edited April 28, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

 

 

 

The Balitimore Police admit there were "mistakes" in Freddie Grey's arrest.  Mistakes?  Mistakes?  "Oops, so sorry we KILLED you."  Where's the outrage among white people about THAT?

 

 I'm as white as they come (100% Englishman here) and the death of Freddy Grey is incredibly disturbing to me. What really bothers me is when people say "oh, he had a criminal record." Oh? Really? So that gives the police a right to kill him then? 

 

I think many white people are outraged by that, but rioting does nothing but hurt the community that you are destroying. 

 

For the record when a police officer murdered someone up here I was also on the frontline protesting.

 

However, we did it peacefully. We didn't riot. 

[unixknight]

Agreed.

No. But what I have noticed, is that the videos that exonerate cop behavior don't tend to get replayed ad nauseum on a 24-hour news cycle. Rather they get relegated to a blurb on page B-4 about how "internal reviews of body cam footage confirmed the officer's claim that he acted in self-defense, and no charges will be filed (darn it!)."

Police aren't immune from the old adage that power corrupts; and there are probably some sick departments out there. But we also need to be aware that we are being provided with a carefully constructed narrative that is calculated to make us see the situation in a certain way, and ultimately pave the way for specific social policy changes.

Be safe.

 

Thanks!  Actually I was on my way in when I got a message that Hopkins closed, so I turned around and came home.

 

But yeah you're right that there's a lot more attention paid to incidents where the cop acted questionably, but I like to think it's because we still expect awesomeness from cops, and those incidents are still considered the exception, not the rule.

 

 Worry when the day comes that cops killing someone under questionable circumstances becomes the blurb in section B-4.

[David13]

How come nobody in this alleged "dialogue" ever questions the criminal?

You do know that the large criminal element in this country is active out there 24/7, robbing, raping, burglarizing, and 100 other crimes to nasty to mention on this forum. 

And the police are the front line soldiers in the battle against them for you and me and our families and property.

Yes, things are bound to go wrong. 

But what about the huge elephant that is ignored here.

What ever happened to obey the law.

dc

[unixknight]

How come nobody in this alleged "dialogue" ever questions the criminal?

 

Because he's dead.

 

And actually, we don't even know that he was a criminal.  BPD keeps refusing to release the reason Gray was arrested in the first place.

 

Obey the law, yes... absolutely, but what we're talking about here is when public officials (not just the police) do not seem to have any accountability and people become frustrated.

Edited April 28, 2015 by unixknight

[David13]

I didn't mean one criminal once at one time.  I mean the hundreds of thousands of crimes committed every year.  Take a poll on this forum.  I'm fairly certain that everyone has been a victim of some crime.

That's the elephant I'm talking about.

Or should we just ignore that so we can get a free tv?

dc

Edited April 28, 2015 by David13

[unixknight]

I didn't mean one criminal once at one time.  I mean the hundreds of thousands of crimes committed every year.  Take a poll on this forum.  I'm fairly certain that everyone has been a victim of some crime.

That's the elephant I'm talking about.

Or should we just ignore that so we can get a free tv?

dc

 

As far as I can tell nobody here is defending looters.  We prettymuch all agree on that.

 

However, that's no reason to ignore all of the factors that led up to this. 

[Guest]

The thing here is... Mistakes do happen. And there are bad people everywhere.

If a good McDonalds employee make a mistake and give you the wrong burger, you just go get a new free burger... or sue McDonalds for millions of dollars. If a bad McDonalds employee spit on your burger, you sue McDonalds. Nobody riots.

If a good doctor makes a mistake, he kills people. Nobody riots because they just go and sue the doctor for millions of dollars and the guy's family gets rich. Same thing for bad doctors but the bad doctor gets to hang his coat.

If a cop makes a mistake, he kills people. Black people steal TVs.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I'll write a reply later when I have more time, but for now...someone mentioned that the media doesn't give us the whole truth.  That's for sure.  Here's some images from Baltimore that the media isn't showing us.  

 

http://mic.com/articles/116702/10-images-of-the-baltimore-riots-you-won-t-be-seeing-on-tv

 

If you look at that and then keep scrolling there's another interesting article about white riots.  White people riot to celebrate football wins apparently . . .  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

If a cop makes a mistake, he kills people. Black people steal TVs.

 

I don't think Freddie Grey's death was an accident (mistake).  Walter Scott's certainly wasn't.  

 

And it's not fair to generalize that "black people steal TVs".  A few black people riot.  Many more have peaceful protests.  

 

10,000 Strong Peacefully Protest in Baltimore

http://blackwestchester.com/2015/04/27/10000-peacefully-protest-bmore/

 

Thank goodness there weren't 10,000 rioting!  But peaceful protests don't get news ratings for the media so they don't cover that.

Okay, I seriously have to run...I'll write more later.

[Vort]

How do you expect "white people" to show "outrage" about a black man being shot to death? Should they go riot, destroy buildings and automobiles, and steal TVs?

 

If only "white people" understood the realities, no one would be complaining about the rioting and looting?

[yjacket]

I'll write a reply later when I have more time, but for now...someone mentioned that the media doesn't give us the whole truth.  That's for sure.  Here's some images from Baltimore that the media isn't showing us.  

 

http://mic.com/articles/116702/10-images-of-the-baltimore-riots-you-won-t-be-seeing-on-tv

 

If you look at that and then keep scrolling there's another interesting article about white riots.  White people riot to celebrate football wins apparently . . .  

 

Some very interesting items in there if they are true, such as Baltimore has a budget of 5 million a year to pay out police brutality settlements.  If one accepts payment they are barred from speaking about the incident, unless they want to lose the money.  Individuals who are arrested are sometimes treated to a "rough" ride; handcuffs but no seatbelt and the driver drives recklessly, sharp turns, sudden stops, etc. leading to injuries . . . very interesting.

[unixknight]

It's a lot easier to pay out "shut up" money than to actually fix a broken system.  Of course, this is made easier when all the attention is focused on the rioters and not on the root causes.

 

IMHO The riots are a red herring.  We know that'll blow over in a couple of days so that's what the media focuses on.  Solving the issues that got us to this place... much harder.  Easier to just blame the rioters with a little thinly veiled racism and ignore the misdeeds that triggered it in the first place.

 

Anyone want to bet me there WON'T be more demonstrations and possibly riots if the officers who killed Freddie Gray don't suffer any consequences?

Edited April 28, 2015 by unixknight

[yjacket]

How come nobody in this alleged "dialogue" ever questions the criminal?

You do know that the large criminal element in this country is active out there 24/7, robbing, raping, burglarizing, and 100 other crimes to nasty to mention on this forum. 

And the police are the front line soldiers in the battle against them for you and me and our families and property.

Yes, things are bound to go wrong. 

But what about the huge elephant that is ignored here.

What ever happened to obey the law.

dc

 

I am an ardent defender of personal freedom,liberty and property.  I firmly believe that if someone attempts to commit violence against one's person or property they have the absolute right to defend themselves and property.

 

But this notion that crime is everywhere is utter baloney.  Currently, the US has the lowest crime rate since at least the 70s (i.e. 40+ years) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

 

Yet we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.  The US has a higher incarceration rate than Russia and countries with 3rd world two bit dictators! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

 

Prisons are full and overflowing not full of rapists and murders but full of people who have been caught doing drugs-i.e. non-violent offenders. Unlike what people are brainwashed to think by things like CSI, Law & Order, etc. crime isn't ever present it doesn't happen all the time and just about everything unusual is just that unusual not a prelude to some horrible crime.

 

The Drug War has caused and continues to cause major problems for the US; it disproportionately affects the black population- we have modern day slavery it's just called by a different name. Those in the black community, understand this, know this and are upset about it. Effects of the Drug War: No-knock raids, police militarization, Civil Asset Forfeiture, etc.

 

Police are not front-line soldiers, they aren't warriors, they aren't gods, they are human beings who have been given the power (rightfully so) to take away someone's life, liberty and property and as such they should only do so when the individual has taken away someone's else's life, liberty or property.  Police should be integrated into the community, citizen's first, peace officers next and enforcement officer next.  Police should not be above the common citizen.

 

What's happened to "obey the law", well the "law" has become extremely overbearing . . . really smoke a natural growing plant and go to jail??

 

That's overbearing. Freddie's "rap sheet" is pretty much all about drug use.  And if one has every read Freakanomics, it is an interesting study on drugs and why individuals sell drugs.  Basically it's the best form of employment they can get, legalize it allow people to grow it legally, prices will drop like a rock and gang's go out of business.  The whole reason for Freddie's arrest and the subsequent start of riots was drugs not some violent homicidal person . . .

Edited April 28, 2015 by yjacket

[unixknight]

The whole reason for Freddie's arrest and the subsequent start of riots was drugs not some violent homicidal person . . .

 

Have they actually come out and said that?  Last I heard the BPD was still silent on the matter.

[Guest]

 And if one has every read Freakanomics, it is an interesting study on drugs and why individuals sell drugs.  Basically it's the best form of employment they can get, legalize it allow people to grow it legally, prices will drop like a rock and gang's go out of business.  The whole reason for Freddie's arrest and the subsequent start of riots was drugs not some violent homicidal person . . .

I haven't read Freakanomics but for a Systems Engineer, this doesn't make sense. There is a balance in that system... legalization of drugs doesn't necessarily swing the pendulum in the middle. You can possibly swing the pendulum to the side of, say, Jackson County Missouri in early 2000's where a meth epidemic hit the teen-aged population driving economic indicators down in the succeeding years. And, it is a clear correlation that poverty and crime are related. Now, according to studies, teen-agers took meth not because it is illegal and "rare". They took meth because it made them feel good. So, lowering the price of meth and making it more available will not necessarily lower the consumption of meth... rather, there's strong indication that, not only will it continue, meth use will increase. Legalization of alcohol did not decrease the use of alcohol after the prohibition was lifted.

So, to arbitrarily conclude that legalization of drugs will keep jailhouses empty is not necessarily true. You have to be able to show that legalization of drugs will not increase poverty. We are not just talking marijuana here.

[David13]

yjacket

I agree 100%.  Make all drugs legal.  You only have to major impediments to that.  The Dems and the Reps, and DEA and police and 100s of thousands of others who depend on the business of 'drug war'.

So don't ever count on it happening.

I don't think crime is so rampant.  I just said everyone has been a victim.  Haven't you?  Think carefully.

I don't watch tv.

Unless it's Outdoor Channel or Sportsman Channel.

Only this is not about drug legalization.

It's about the riots.  There is a legal solution to the whole thing both in civil court, and also the investigation process.  Officers lose their job and pension and benefits.  That's what they work for.

And it's a dirty job.  Unless you have been out there on the front lines with them you don't have the slightest clue about how dirty their job is, what horrible dirt they have to deal with.

This has become the bizarro world.  Everything is backwards.  Crime is ok.  That's what these riots are all about.

dc

 

Disproportionately affects the black community?  Are you joking.  Was there ever any person who took up drugs involuntarily?  No. 

Most would rather deal drugs than go to college on an affirmative action program.  Easy money.  Affirmative action programs never fill their quota.

 

I don't know if anyone has noticed.  The most racist people in the United States today are ... black.

Edited April 28, 2015 by David13

[David13]

Drugs are not the best form of employment, it's just the easiest.  Take the easy softer way.  Except fo' them racist (white) cops.

Poverty and crime are related in what way? 

That a lot of people with no morals take the way of crime out of their poverty.  A free will decision.

Even Martin Luther King returned from Africa and said that Americans have no idea what poverty is, and that poor people in Africa don't resort to crime.

Go to Mexico.  I have too many times to count.  You will see real poverty.  And you will see very little crime.  They have a high sense of morality based on having very little. 

(And no I don't mean the national or international drug cartels).  I mean the ordinary people in the small towns.

dc

[Guest]

The thing is, they aren't proving anything or teaching anything positive when they loot and riot except that they (the ones rioting) are more than happy to fill the stereotypes they're fighting against. 

 

If my daughter insists that I don't trust her, and then sneaks out every night, I won't trust her more. If you tell me to stop thinking you're a thug, and then resort to thuggery, well. . .

Edited April 28, 2015 by Eowyn

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I agree in concept, LP; but when you ask "where's the rage on behalf of the innocent who are victimized by power-drunk cops?", I reply "it was wasted on behalf of miserable goons like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, who were painted as innocent even though the evidence revealed them to be anything but".

The same people who told me I should be mad about those cases, tell me I should be mad about Freddie Gray. Maybe they're on to something this time--even a stopped clock is right twice a day, as the saying goes. But I can't help remembering the story of the boy who cried wolf and wondering whether there is some ulterior motive in play here.

 

JAG, most of the time I agree with you and enjoy your posts.  I hate to be on the opposite side this time...but here we are.

 

You mention the boy who cried wolf...are you familiar with the Walter Scott case?  That officer claimed he thought his life was in danger, but the video clearly shows otherwise.  There was a case in Seattle where a police officer assaulted an old man that she claimed threatened her with his umbrella/cane....but a video showed she was lying.  I wonder about ulterior motive too...but it's the police officers I see crying wolf. 

I'm not trying to justify the riots.  I'm a Pacifist and I so admire Martin Luther King's work to create change withOUT violence.  But as I said before, I think it's hypocritical for people to get up in arms about some property damage when people are dying.  

 

And what about:

 

Reka Boyd...Off-duty officer Dante Servin fired an unregistered firearm into an alleyway where four people were standing after he allegedly saw a man brandish a gun. One of the bullets hit Boyd in the back of the head. She died the next day.

 

Rumain Brisbon, shot when police mistook his bottle of pills for a gun.

 

Akai Gurley  Shot for walking into a stairwell, "Police Commissioner William Bratton called Gurley "a total innocent."

 

Kajieme Powell...another case where the "official" story doesn't match the video . . .

 

John Crawford...shot for holding a pellet gun he picked up off the shelf in Walmart

 

Tyree Woodson...Police say Woodson's fatal gunshot wound was self-inflicted. That would mean that he smuggled his gun into a police station after police brought him there for having several open warrants.

 

Victor White...allegedly shot himself--while handcuffed in the back of a police car.

 

Yvette Smith...Officers responding to a domestic disturbance call shot after she opened her front door to them. Initially, police claimed that Smith had a firearm, but the sheriff's office retracted this the next day.

 

Jonathon Ferrell ....crashed his car and knocked on the door of a nearby house. The woman inside called the police. Police said that when Ferrell was apprehended, they shot him. Ten times.

 

Reynaldo Cuevas....Cuevas was shot and killed by police as he was fleeing armed men attempting to rob the bodega he worked at.

 

Chavis Carter...Police say Carter killed himself while handcuffed in the back of a police car. His mother pointed out that he was left-handed (he would have shot himself with his right hand), detained for marijuana while his concealed weapon supposedly went undetected, and not suicidal.

 

Tamon Robinson....Police responded to a call from Canarsie, Brooklyn that Robinson was stealing paving stones. When confronted by police, Robinson, unarmed, ran toward the building where his mother lived; officers chased him by car, hitting him.

 

Kendrec McDade...McDade was chased and shot by two police officers after a 911 caller falsely reported he had been robbed at gunpoint by two black men. Both were unarmed. McDade was shot seven times.

 

Shareese Francis...Francis, a schizophrenic who at the time was not taking her medication, became "increasingly emotionally distraught" after an argument with her mother. Her sister called 311, hoping for an ambulance—four police officers arrived instead, who chased Francis through the home. All four allegedly pinned her down as they handcuffed her and she stopped breathing soon after.

 

Wendell Allen...Allen, unarmed, dressed only in jeans and sneakers, was shot and killed by New Orleans police officer Joshua Colclough executing a search warrant of Allen's home for marijuana. Aftermath: Colclough pleaded guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to four years in prison last year.

 

Dante Price...Security guards ordered Price out of an apartment complex. They told him to leave his car, but instead he decided to drive away, so they fired 17 shots at him. Aftermath: Justin Wissinger and Christopher Tarbert pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter and abduction.

 

Sgt. Manuel Loggins...On a religious fast and off medication for ADHD, Loggins allegedly crashed into a gate a Orange County high school with his car carrying his two daughters. After walking to and returning from the school's athletic field with a Bible, he was approached by a police officer, who shot Loggins three times through his car window. He was unarmed. Aftermath: Orange County paid $4.4 million to Loggins' family in a settlement last year.

 

Ramarley Graham...was shot and killed by police in the Bronx, who chased him into his home without a warrant. He was unarmed.

 

Kenneth Chamberlain....Chamberlain's Life Aid alert necklace was triggered by mistake, causing the police to respond. He refused to answer his door, saying he did not need help. Officer Steven Hart called Chamberlain a "nigger." The police broke down his door. They allege that Chamberlain attempted to charge them with a butcher knife. They tasered him, and shot him dead.

 

Aiyana Jones (a child)...Chamberlain's Life Aid alert necklace was triggered by mistake, causing the police to respond. He refused to answer his door, saying he did not need help. Officer Steven Hart called Chamberlain a "nigger." The police broke down his door. They allege that Chamberlain attempted to charge them with a butcher knife. They tasered him, and shot him dead.

 

Victor Steen....Sheen rode his bike as a cop chased him. Steen refused to stop, and so the cop, Jerald Ard, tasered him. Steen fell from his bike and Ard ran him over, killing him. Ard also may have planted a gun on Steen after his death. Aftermath: Ard was suspended from the force without pay for two weeks. The city of Pensacola paid Steen's mother a $500,000 settlement.

 

Oscar Grant...After reports of a fight at the BART train station, police detained Grant and some of his friends. While Grant was lying face down, resisting arrest, a police officer named Johannes Mehserle shot him. The officer claimed he meant to taser Grant. Aftermath: Mehserle was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and not guilty of second-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter. He was sentenced to two years in prison.

 

Tarika Wilson....A SWAT team arrived at Wilson's home with the intention of arresting her companion for dealing drugs. When they opened fire, they shot and killed Wilson. Aftermath: Sgt. Joe Chavalia, who shot Wilson, was acquitted of two misdemeanors: negligent homicide and negligent assault. Wilson's family received a $2.5 million wrongful death settlement.

I got this list from this article: 

http://gawker.com/unarmed-people-of-color-killed-by-police-1999-2014-1666672349

And I didn't list them all.  I left out any that said the officers thought the victim was armed (though after the Walter Scott case, one must wonder if a camera might tell a different story).  And I stopped before I got to the end of the list because I just couldn't read any more.

 

People often ask..."why did he run from the police?"  If you were a Black person and aware of this list and other problems between Blacks and the police wouldn't you?

 

People ask "but why riot?"  I think that is the wrong question.  I think we should wonder why there aren't more riots, and be grateful that there aren't.  After they have sued, and marched, and tried to speak out and still their friends and family keep dying...well, it's a wonder we don't see more riots than we do.

 

 

 

P.S. Just in case this is needed: No I don't think ALL police officers are bad.  Of course not.  I have great respect for the good officers.  I fully realize they put their lives on the line for us.  We count on them to "protect and serve", but to me that is all the more reason to hold the bad officers in contempt.  

Edited April 28, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I don't know if anyone has noticed.  The most racist people in the United States today are ... black.

 

David, I try not to be sarcastic or snarky, but you are seriously tempting me.  

 

I'll leave it at this:  do you have any facts to support your OPINION, which I strongly disagree with.