Faith And Works

[Traveler]

I was taught a rather interesting lesson on faith while visiting a friend. My friend lives in a place that has two growing seasons a year and he had just finished expanding his garden. He had worked so very hard to dig up a dead tree and bring in new soil. He had gathered fertilizer and spread it through out his garden area. He had worked so very hard before he even planted the seeds.

I have pondered the importance of preparation lately. Preparation is the work of faith. Now the seed is truly planted in faith after the works of faith are done. Some may think that the seed of G-d grows without the deeds and works of faith. In the parable of the sower (Luke 8:5-15) Jesus teaches the importance of the works and deeds of preparations of faith that must precede the seed. A garden without faith (the preparations by works of faith) is not a garden or even a place for the word of G-d.

The Traveler

[clay]

Do you feel salvation is an event or a process?

[pam]

What do you feel it is Clay?

[clay]

Event. I believe that you will be able to tell who is saved by the "FRUIT ON THEIR BRANCHES". How about you?

[Guest Yediyd]

Do you feel salvation is an event or a process?

An excellent question!!!!

... my answer is, Both.

An event when Christ atoned for our sins, and a process when we strive to live G-d's commandments.

[pam]

Event. I believe that you will be able to tell who is saved by the "FRUIT ON THEIR BRANCHES". How about you?

I apologize for asking you that question but I wanted to know where you were coming from.

I like Yediyd feel it is both. We have the privilege of salvation through the atonement of Christ. However our acts, our faith, our service to others, our willingness to obey the Commandments of our Heavenly Father will bring us salvation.

[clay]

<div class='quotemain'>

Event. I believe that you will be able to tell who is saved by the "FRUIT ON THEIR BRANCHES". How about you?

I apologize for asking you that question but I wanted to know where you were coming from.

I like Yediyd feel it is both. We have the privilege of salvation through the atonement of Christ. However our acts, our faith, our service to others, our willingness to obey the Commandments of our Heavenly Father will bring us salvation.

I feel that people are sent to Hell because of sin. Sin is Transgression of the Law( Ten Commandments) 1 john 3:4. How can we keep his commandments if everyone of us has broken them all? We have all lied, stolen, commited adultry, and the Bible says that all liars with have their part in the lake of fire and no thief or adulterer will ever enter the kingdom of heaven. If he were to judge you on just those three commandments, would you be innocent or guilty?

[Guest Yediyd]

Paul talks about this in Romans Chap. 7...Grace is not a liberty to sin...Grace is our gift from G-d, works shows our appreciation of that gift....and by our works, we are known...Our fruit is the proof of our hearts.

[pam]

Do you not believe in repentence? And I for one have never been an adulterer thank you very much.

[Guest Yediyd]

Do you not believe in repentence? And I for one have never been an adulterer thank you very much.

I am a sinner, saved by Grace, and my works show the true conversion of my heart. Read what Paul said about it in Romans 7.

[clay]

You have never looked at another Human being with lust in you heart? Jesus said that it is said of old do not commit adultry but i say to you any man who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultry of the heart. We are guilty of all commandments. God's standards are much higher than ours.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'> Do you not believe in repentence? And I for one have never been an adulterer thank you very much.

I am a sinner, saved by Grace, and my works show the true conversion of my heart. Read what Paul said about it in Romans 7. oops!! didn't mean to quote you, Pam...I was talking to the other guy.

[clay]

<div class='quotemain'> Do you not believe in repentence? And I for one have never been an adulterer thank you very much.

I am a sinner, saved by Grace, and my works show the true conversion of my heart. Read what Paul said about it in Romans 7.

I agree with you totaly.

[Guest Yediyd]

You have never looked at another Human being with lust in you heart? Jesus said that it is said of old do not commit adultry but i say to you any man who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultry of the heart. We are guilty of all commandments. God's standards are much higher than ours.

What is your point? we know we are all sinners...that is why Christ suffered.

[Traveler]

Do you feel salvation is an event or a process?

I believe if salvation was an event then Jesus would say he was the place. But since He an I know that it is a process - it is called "The Way". Not by me but by G-d.

It is not a question of worthyness but a question of preparation. Only the 5 (half that waited for the event)were prepared will enter with Christ. If you are through with your preparations I will not argue your choice - but mine is to continue to prepare.

The Traveler

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

Do you feel salvation is an event or a process?

I believe if salvation was an event then Jesus would say he was the place. But since He an I know that it is a process - it is called "The Way". Not by me but by G-d.

It is not a question of worthyness but a question of preparation. Only the 5 (half that waited for the event)were prepared will enter with Christ. If you are through with your preparations I will not argue your choice - but mine is to continue to prepare.

The Traveler

An excellent point! Thank you!

[pam]

You have never looked at another Human being with lust in you heart? Jesus said that it is said of old do not commit adultry but i say to you any man who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultry of the heart. We are guilty of all commandments. God's standards are much higher than ours.

Okay so if I were to look at my future...why would I strive to live God's commandments and live my life the best I can...if I am already guilty of all commandments and can never possibly reach God's standards. Heavenly Father is not expecting us to be perfect. He knows we aren't. But we strive to do the best we can to live those commandments. We are human we are not God. That is what repentence is for. If I didn't know I have that wonderful thing there would be nothing to work towards at all. You are making it sound as if all of us are lost and there is no hope.

[clay]

If we don't fully understand our sin, what it is, and how destructive it is, how can we really be sure what we are being saved from. I believe that you are saved by grace alon, not works. If someone tells me that they are going to go to heaven through grace and works, meaning keeping God's commandments, shouldn't they fully understand God's requirements for keeping those commandments?

[pam]

If we don't fully understand our sin, what it is, and how destructive it is, how can we really be sure what we are being saved from. I believe that you are saved by grace alon, not works. If someone tells me that they are going to go to heaven through grace and works, meaning keeping God's commandments, shouldn't they fully understand God's requirements for keeping those commandments?

So nothing we do on earth....no service to others, nothing brings us salvation?

[Guest Yediyd]

If we don't fully understand our sin, what it is, and how destructive it is, how can we really be sure what we are being saved from. I believe that you are saved by grace alon, not works. If someone tells me that they are going to go to heaven through grace and works, meaning keeping God's commandments, shouldn't they fully understand God's requirements for keeping those commandments?

My works will be tried by fire, only what is done for Christ will survive that fire...I am saved by the Grace of G-d, but my works will determine my reward...

Just one life, 'twill soon be past...just what's done for Christ will last...

[clay]

<div class='quotemain'>

You have never looked at another Human being with lust in you heart? Jesus said that it is said of old do not commit adultry but i say to you any man who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultry of the heart. We are guilty of all commandments. God's standards are much higher than ours.

Okay so if I were to look at my future...why would I strive to live God's commandments and live my life the best I can...if I am already guilty of all commandments and can never possibly reach God's standards. Heavenly Father is not expecting us to be perfect. He knows we aren't. But we strive to do the best we can to live those commandments. We are human we are not God. That is what repentence is for. If I didn't know I have that wonderful thing there would be nothing to work towards at all. You are making it sound as if all of us are lost and there is no hope.

I am sorry if I have offended you and mislead you in anyway. I do believe that God required perfection in our lifes but we fall short everyday. that is why we have the Savior. My point was that no one can keep the commandments and all deserve hell if we look at works but Jesus did away with this. Now, we are save by grace alone. Answer me this, what does it take to get to heaven, not store up riches?

[Guest Yediyd]

Jesus said, "It is finished."

His job is done, now we accept his gift and do our part to be prepared to meet the bridegroom when he comes...I want a full measure of oil...I add oil to my lamp by my works...Grace and works work together, That is the way.

[clay]

<div class='quotemain'>

Do you feel salvation is an event or a process?

I believe if salvation was an event then Jesus would say he was the place. But since He an I know that it is a process - it is called "The Way". Not by me but by G-d.

It is not a question of worthyness but a question of preparation. Only the 5 (half that waited for the event)were prepared will enter with Christ. If you are through with your preparations I will not argue your choice - but mine is to continue to prepare.

The Traveler

I'm not familiar with where you got what you just said. is that our of the book of mormon. I'm not being smart but i really don't know. If so, could you please explain

Jesus said, "It is finished."

His job is done, now we accept his gift and do our part to be prepared to meet the bridegroom when he comes...I want a full measure of oil...I add oil to my lamp by my works...Grace and works work together, That is the way.

Do I have to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to go to heaven?

[Traveler]

If we don't fully understand our sin, what it is, and how destructive it is, how can we really be sure what we are being saved from. I believe that you are saved by grace alon, not works. If someone tells me that they are going to go to heaven through grace and works, meaning keeping God's commandments, shouldn't they fully understand God's requirements for keeping those commandments?

If man is saved by grace alone then all men are saved and there is no point in any discussion of the subject. I do not mind anyone believing in being saved by "grace". Such ideas are very pleasant. My objection is when someone only applies G -d's grace to themself and not to everyone else. When stipulations are placed on grace it is no longer true grace but becomes an act of selfishness and self serving.

I have also learned by experience that non-workers are in hell when they have to put up with true hard workers that love working. I am quite sure G-d is not stupid and is not going to force anything on anyone that does not like the idea of work. I am sure there is a "perfect" place prepared for non-workers and believers in non-working salvation, as there is a "perfect" place prepared for workers and those willing to work hard and invest their labors in salvation. But for clarity - I believe G-d is himself, a very hard worker and though it is not really easy and not at all popular - I am learning to enjoy work - especially the really good unselfish works and I am also getting over the idea that somehow I ought to get a reward for unselfishness.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

Do I have to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to go to heaven?

Apparently you didn't read one of my earlier posts to that effect.

We must partake of ordinances and covenants to be cleansed, apply Christ's blood to our sinful hearts, and become perfect in Christ.

These ordinances and covenants are had in full within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God has also restored through latter-day prophets the priesthood authority necessary to administer these ordinances and covenants.

So if you want to get to the top of the Celestial Kingdom...dwell in God's presence...then you must partake of the required ordinances and covenants and this involves being baptized a member of the LDS Church for starters.

It's not complicated. The short answer to your question is "Yes."