Survey: Mormons Want Their History 'inspiring, But Not Sanitized&#

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Now, I will concentrait on learning the TRUTH, not the SLANTED truth.

D&C 93: 30

All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

And also,

D&C 109:7

And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

While seeking for the "Truth," don't lose sight of nor neglect the Truth you already have (which brought you into Christ's Church).

Hugs,

Stu

[Guest Yediyd]

I won't Dr. S...as a matter of fact, I have a good start on the truth right now!! I have two AWSOME books in my lap that I am so excited about, I am not sure which one to read first!!! One is titled:Mormon Enigma, Emma Hale Smith. It is an unabridged biography of her life...the other is, Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling.

...and here is the kicker!!

Guess where I got these books from? Our friendly native wicked witch, Elphaba sent them to me!!! Along with some other books and a CD that my daughter LOVES so much that she won't let me have a turn with it!

So, just for the record....

...My definition of an "anti" is someone who is out there to destroy my faith...not someone like Elphaba, who has lost her testimony, but still loves this church's history and learning the FACTS, not the fiction.

I have learned a lot from you, El...thank you, and THANK YOU FOR THESE BOOKS!!!!!!!

Yediyd

[Elphaba]

...My definition of an "anti" is someone who is out there to destroy my faith...not someone like Elphaba, who has lost her testimony, but still loves this church's history and learning the FACTS, not the fiction. Yediyd

That made my day!

I love ya Yed.

Elphie

[Snow]

The leadership doesn't want the truth openly discussed and given to the members. Most who learn the truth leave membership if its a viable option for them. From what ive seen in my personal life, upwards of 90% leave after learning about things they where either not told, or blatantly lied about due to unsavory issues of mormon history.

For someone with only three posts, you sure pack a lot of garbage into one post. I, like those I associate with, know probably far more than you'll ever know (judging from your post you aren't particularly knowledgeable) and we aren't going anywhere.

[Guest Sono_hito]

<div class='quotemain'>. . . upwards of 90% leave after learning about things they where either not told. . . ."

I am an ex-Mormon who knows a few ex-Mormons who learned truths that did cause them to lose their testimony. (I am not one of them.)

But I think 90 percent is far too high a number. I know quite a few Mormons who read the same information and struggled with it, but still maintained their testimonies.

If I had to come up with a percentage, I would say thirty percent.

Elphaba

Later edit: Actually, I'm coming down to twenty percent. E.

Later later edit: I'm not even comfortable with twenty percent. E.

I put the qualifier "in my personal experience". Theres also the issue that most people rarely leave within the first year after learning. It took me over 2 1/2 years.

<div class='quotemain'>

The leadership doesn't want the truth openly discussed and given to the members. Most who learn the truth leave membership if its a viable option for them. From what ive seen in my personal life, upwards of 90% leave after learning about things they where either not told, or blatantly lied about due to unsavory issues of mormon history.

For someone with only three posts, you sure pack a lot of garbage into one post. I, like those I associate with, know probably far more than you'll ever know (judging from your post you aren't particularly knowledgeable) and we aren't going anywhere.

What garbage? I can name quite a few areas i was blatantly lied about (face to face) by people as high up as stake pres. Whether these lies where done purposefully to hide several VERY questionable issues with church history, or done due to lack of knowledge of things which you are not to discuss (as they are not "faith promoting", even if fact), ill never know. But the issue still stands that this is a very common theme among "chapel mormons".

I would contend that MOST active members do not truly know about some of the key issues surrounding some of the "big guns" of polygamy, ethnics/priesthood, early formation of the church, BoA, Kinderhook plates, etc.

[Guest Yediyd]

Will somebody PLEASE explain to me the definition of a Chaple Mormon?

[Palerider]

I think Wally Martin has appeared again.............

[sixpacktr]

I am reminded of the great lesson of Alma the Elder, once he had re-established the church among the people of Noah (after they'd escaped from him). Once everyone had been baptized, he established priests over them and commanded the priests to teach "nothing but faith and repentance." What? No WoW debates? No discussions on determining when a prophet speaks as a prophet and not as a man? No arguments about the size of the planet Kolob in relation to ours?

Simple faith and repentance. Centering on Jesus Christ and his mission. As Bro Joseph said: we teach that Jesus Christ was born into the world, died and rose again, and everything else is an appendage to that (summarized, of course). So if we don't talk a lot about polygamy, or MMM, or the Kinderhook plates, it really doesn't matter. What really matters is if Joseph was a prophet, if HF and Jesus really appeared to him, if the BOM is true or not, and did Joseph restore the way back to our HF and Jesus Christ, and promote our faith in him and help us to repent? If he did, then he fulfilled his mission. If not, then this whole work is a sham.

I know it isn't a sham. Joseph acted under the direction of Christ in restoring his church...

Will somebody PLEASE explain to me the definition of a Chaple Mormon?

Is that anything like Chapple pie?

[Guest Yediyd]

I think Wally Martin has appeared again.............

Huh?

[CrimsonKairos]

Yed, I think you're projecting the shortcomings of a few members onto the whole Church leadership.

I personally wouldn't have recommended the Work&Glory series to you if you were interested in history. I don't know what that guy was thinking, but that's just me.

The thing is, the books Elph sent you are readily available in bookstores and online.

It's not like they're deep, dark secrets that only the few initiated can know about.

Anyway, I'm glad you found out these "lies" before it was too late.

[Guest Yediyd]

Yed, I think you're projecting the shortcomings of a few members onto the whole Church leadership.

I personally wouldn't have recommended the Work&Glory series to you if you were interested in history. I don't know what that guy was thinking, but that's just me.

The thing is, the books Elph sent you are readily available in bookstores and online.

It's not like they're deep, dark secrets that only the few initiated can know about.

Anyway, I'm glad you found out these "lies" before it was too late.

I don't know where you are from...but here in Liverpool,NY...there is not an LDS bookstore for MILES around!!! The closest store is an hour away in Palmyra. I did not have the Internet till three months ago and I have not had a car for 8 years! I have been to Palmyra...but every time I go, I'm riding with people who have their own agendas and have not had the time for me to spend in the book store. I asked bro. so n so if he could recommend some good books to me....I bought the books he recommended...I knew nothing about these other books till I came up here. I'm over it already...but I WAS kept DELIBERATLY in the dark, FOR MY OWN GOOD...that is a direct quote from Br. so n so at my ward...he is the education specialist for our stake....

[CrimsonKairos]

Well it sounds like it worked...whatever "it" was...because you admitted you'd have never joined the Church if you'd been inundated with all sorts of scary historical gems that now aren't so scary to you.

It truly is "milk, before meat." You don't have a doctor do heart surgery before he's finished med school, y'know? B)

[Guest Yediyd]

Well it sounds like it worked...whatever "it" was...because you admitted you'd have never joined the Church if you'd been inundated with all sorts of scary historical gems that now aren't so scary to you.

It truly is "milk, before meat." You don't have a doctor do heart surgery before he's finished med school, y'know? B)

THIS, I agree with!!! I see why I was kept in the dark at first...I even understand a little now...I just felt ...well you know how it made me feel...lets just get past it, now....I'm still here, I survived the information overload and I still love this church...'nough said!!!

[Elphaba]

I've taken Fiannan's paragraphs out of order so I can better respond to him.

Look at discussions we have had here about birth control or polygamy. Fifty years ago if someone said having a large family was ideal few people would have questioned that opinion -- they might not have agreed with it but it would have been mainstream enough to be considered a polite view to have and express in mixed company.

In today's "modern" world if you express this view you risk being called an anti-feminist, a Neandertal, or even a racist. Maybe this is why the Church tip toes around the issue of birth control. Danger is, that if young people have not heard the Church doctrine expressed and discussed there are many who will react quite negatively and even hostile if they look at a quote from a church leader from the past condemning birth control.

You are hysterical. You bring up an "argument" you've already lost, place it in this thread, and try to breathe life into it. The problem is, it doesn't fit! The Church's past or current stance on birth control is not an issue a member is going to stumble across and be shocked by, and perhaps even lose a testimony over, because he/she had never heard of it. Please.

The problem is that if you sanitize "so to speak" history then the danger is that the people who want to tear you down will be the ones who are bringing the "truth" to light -- but they will do it in such a way as to try to destroy one's faith in leaders. Then they will be the ones who will then call what the leaders taught or said or lived bad or evil. Danger is, if you hide things from members then it may destroy people's faith if it is revealed by those with a negative agenda.

. . . .

Same with polygamy. Live it, or don't live it...look forward to its return or shudder at the thought, but it was not and is not immoral if we use the Bible as our compass. However, if we try to erase 26 out of Brigham Young's 27 wives the same way the Chinese will take official photoes from encyclopedias and photoshop out someone who feel into disfavor with the party line then we do our history and people's testimonies a disservice.

Stop the presses! I agree with Fiannin!

I think it is practically unconscionable how we ignore the 19th century members of the Church who practiced polygamy. It was a difficult way of life, there is no getting around that. Regardless, whether one enjoyed it or hated, they ALL did it for God, because they loved their God with all their hearts, and because they believed God had commanded them to do it.

I understand the Church's need to distance itself from the practice, and therefore from these Saints. I just wish it weren't so. They are an incredible inspiration, and their pictures should be on the walls of every chapel. Their stories should be told to all, especially adolescents, as examples of devotion, because you'll not find anything like it today. I love these people.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'> I think Wally Martin has appeared again.............

Huh?

Walter Martin

Elphaba

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'> I think Wally Martin has appeared again.............

Huh?

Walter Martin

Elphaba

wally martin-a fraud

[the Ogre]

...I have learned it as I have gained my testimony and I have been able to absorb it slowly...I believe this was the wisdom of G-d that this is how I was brought in...yes, I feel like I was "duped", but not really...I was only duped if this church is not true...and I KNOW IN MY HEART THAT IT IS!!!

Yep, that step by step precept upon precept thing.

[the Ogre]

...I knew nothing about the Journal of discourses....I found all this stuff on-line in the last three months...but in three years...I have not heard of ANY OF THIS!!!

I believe that the not so easy to explain things are not openly discussed, at least...not in MY ward.

Fiannan...I agree 100% with what you just said!!! I won't lose my testimony...but I feel angry that it was anti-Mormons who brought this stuff to my attention.

Yed, don't be angry. When I read a lot of stuff that the antis bring up it is just a review of old news. I' BIC and bothered to investigate and examine what the antis have had to say, but have recognized spin for what it is (on both sides). This is where I dislike the aplogists, why try to explain away/refocus the mysteries... they exist and in most cases occam's razor provides the reasonable dissection of anti-logic.

Investigation of the mysteries of LDS history/quasi-theology is a personal thing. The people who are disallusioned are those who were prepared to leave anyway. One of the best things is to not rely on DeseretBook for an explanation of things LDS. I am excited about the new data coming to light. I am not worried that the content will somehow squish my fragile testimony, though it might be a fear others have. I think what is available should be brought to light and let it stand for itself.

Aaron the Ogre

You know what Dr. S...I resent this post!!! I think that the "faith promoting" omission of "colorful" facts. Is what almost made me lose my testimony!!! I felt lied to!!! I believe this is what Satan will use to pull away the very elect....because this information is now readily available on the Internet...we would do our members a service to teach the truth at home, before they find out the scewed "truth" from anti-Mormons!!!

This idea of "hiding" or "omitting" the truth, just builds resentment and hurt when members find that they have been misinformed, "for their own good".

I don't believe we need a five hour church service...just honest records and truthful history books.

I'm with you on the hiding and omiting and also what many LDS scholars do in confusing LDSishness through the application of logical tools found in the anthropology, literary theory, and philosophy of the academy. No one needs another to gain a testimony beyond the Holy Ghost and the Saviour.

I don't know where you are from...but here in Liverpool,NY...there is not an LDS bookstore for MILES around!!!

Crazy,

I bought Rough Stone Rolling and a number of other LDS books from the Lindon, Utah Wal-Mart.

Aaron the Ogre

[Guest Yediyd]

I bought Rough Stone Rolling and a number of other LDS books from the Lindon, Utah Wal-Mart.

Aaron the Ogre

Aaron, I challenge you to find ONE Book of Mormon in ANY Walmart here in NY!!! If there was a Walmart in Palmyra...maybe, but here in NY...LDS material has to be special ordered, I was in Barns and Noble the other day and just for the heck of it, I looked for a Book of Mormon...they did not have one on the shelf!!!

NY, and Utah are two different worlds!!!!

[Alaskagain]

ever the capitalist . . .

Anybody want to invest in an LDS bookstore in upstate NY?

[Elphaba]

ever the capitalist . . .

Anybody want to invest in an LDS bookstore in upstate NY?

Elphie

[NDD18]

The leadership doesn't want the truth openly discussed and given to the members. Most who learn the truth leave membership if its a viable option for them. From what ive seen in my personal life, upwards of 90% leave after learning about things they where either not told, or blatantly lied about due to unsavory issues of mormon history.

I've learned alot about early Church history,and doctrines/or sayings made by early Prophets that bothered me. But I pondered them, looked at the context, and prayed about them. They do not effect my place in the church or with God at all. Some people when given this information expecially from an Anti-Mormon percpective; it's easy to approach them from the wrong angle, and they can hurt your testimony.

[sixpacktr]

ever the capitalist . . .

Anybody want to invest in an LDS bookstore in upstate NY?

there already is ONE, in Palmyra, like Yed said.

Deseret Book Online is a good source, as it is about the same price as the local bookstore.