I can't get married and neither can my friends.

[NightSG]

 Than look harder. There are so, so many women out there who are lovely, amazing and totally fun to be around and still live the gospel standards. 

 

Yeah, they're also married.

[Guest]

I really despise that statistic; it disregards the difference in attitudes.  How often do you see a man make a career of waiting tables or mopping floors?  Most men in those positions are working their way through school or building capital for some other venture.  Many of the women have no future goal.  The ones who do tend to end up making just as much as the men, if not more.

Are you really this misinformed or do you just not let reality get in the way of your obvious negative view of women?

You don't see many women make a career of waiting tables and mopping floors either. But, NightSG does have a major point. It is just much better illustrated using real actual numbers.

For example:

The most remunerative college majors are occupied by upwards to 90% male:

1.) Petroleum Engineering: 87% male

2.) Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% male

3.) Mechanical Engineering: 90% male

The least remunerative college majors are occupied by upwards to 90% female:

1.) Early Childhood Education: 97% female

2.) Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% female

3.) Social Work: 88% female

You can put a million flyers in the Early Childhood Education and Social Work classrooms in all universities stating the fact that Early childhood educators and social workers can expect to earn around $35,000 and $40,000 while Petroleum and Marine Engineers can expect to earn upwards of $120,000 and you would still have over 90% female in Early childhood educators and social workers and over 90% male in Petroleum and Marine Engineering. These things are hardwired in the women psyche - the desire to nurture - whereas men are hardwired to take up new frontier challenges with nothing but polar icecaps for company...

Edited June 10, 2015 by anatess

[Guest MormonGator]

Yeah, they're also married.

lol. The bane of every person who is single. Both genders always complain that the good ones are either "taken or gay."  

[Guest]

Or she's not a size 2 trust fund baby.

[NightSG]

You don't see many women make a career of waiting tables and mopping floors either. 

 

Not sure where you're looking, but when I did a stint as a janitor at the local schools, well over half of the janitorial staff consisted of women who had been doing it 10+ years and had no plans to do anything else with their lives.  Same for the waitstaff at the cafes.  Maybe a third of the remainder were women working their way through school.  Men in those jobs are almost always doing it as a second job, working through school or supplementing retirement income, with the occasional exception who just couldn't hack the grooming requirements to be a Walmart greeter or Waffle House cook.

[Guest]

Not sure where you're looking, but when I did a stint as a janitor at the local schools, well over half of the janitorial staff consisted of women who had been doing it 10+ years and had no plans to do anything else with their lives. Same for the waitstaff at the cafes. Maybe a third of the remainder were women working their way through school. Men in those jobs are almost always doing it as a second job, working through school or supplementing retirement income, with the occasional exception who just couldn't hack the grooming requirements to be a Walmart greeter or Waffle House cook.

My kids have been to a total of 5 schools, I've worked at over 10 jobs, and went to 2 colleges. All in the USA. In all those places, I have not seen a female resident janitor. The only females I have met are those who work with nighttime contract janitorial services and most of them are new immigrants that hasn't learned to speak English yet.

But all that is irrelevant because it is anecdotal.

What is statistical fact according to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics is that only 30% of janitors are female. 70% of wait staff is female but only 12% of all wait staff is over 50 years old.

[FunkyTown]

I really despise that statistic; it disregards the difference in attitudes.  How often do you see a man make a career of waiting tables or mopping floors?  Most men in those positions are working their way through school or building capital for some other venture.  Many of the women have no future goal.  The ones who do tend to end up making just as much as the men, if not more.

 

It does not, actually. Within the same job, women have a tendency to earn less. Much of this can be put down to the number of women who take time off for maternity leave and to raise kids during their highest earning potential years.

 

Hence why I said that numbers are thrown around with no regard to their context.

 

I also see many of the Men's Rights activists using the exact same tactics and using statistics without context to back up their argument.

 

You talk about how the majority of men feel the same as you. That is not true. I have been to no wards - And I have travelled a lot for work - Where the men didn't want to get married and those who were married said not to. None. Not even one.

 

Anecdotal, but that comprises several dozen wards.

[Backroads]

Yet isn't it true that all things being equal (years at job, education, position, etc.) men and women make the same? I swear I once saw a statistics saying as much.

[Guest]

Yet isn't it true that all things being equal (years at job, education, position, etc.) men and women make the same? I swear I once saw a statistics saying as much.

It's not exactly the same... all things being equal, women make 5% less than men. This may be caused by women taking more sick days than men - maternity leave and the like, probably. But yes, this 5% is not the crisis it is portrayed to be.

[stringsofcoins]

Severe shaming and a complete lack of empathy. Also most of you simply made up a bunch of complete nonsense and pretended like I asserted your lies so you could then defend the crap that you made up.

No one will talk about my very real issues and very real concerns. In fact you attack me and severely shame me for even trying to talk about this.

You people should be ashamed of yourself.

[stringsofcoins]

Now, I'm in favor of getting rid of state-sponsored marriage. But any long-term committed relationship that ends, especially ones with children, will have parting issues. Perhaps not to the current extent, but imagining a spiritual ex-wife will graciously allow you full custody of children is unrealistic. And with all due respect, it sounds as if you want sex and kids without any commitment. No, I don't think you should enter marriage with such a dismal view of it. I agree the courts are unfair in such things.

But I'm not entirely sure what kind of state you are looking for. Even with no laws you'll still find yourself in negotiations.

Who said anything about full custody? You just made something up and then defended that because now you don't have to acknowledge the truth of my, and my unmarried friends, real situation.

[stringsofcoins]

Marry the kind of girl who won't cheat on you. Problem solved.

"Just wait until you find the one."

Again you are not addressing anything that is a real problem for me. I'm not sure if you are serious and hence dim or if you are trolling me.

[stringsofcoins]

There are a lot of very happily married men here that will tell you that marriage is not, in fact, a trap.

I suspect the problem isn't women as a whole, but the type of women you're looking for. Celestial Barbie doesn't exist. In my experience, the guys who have the most problem finding a good wife are the ones who want a Victoria Secret model qualified, Relief Society president, Betty Crocker, who loves video games. . . you get the idea. It's fine to have a wish list, but you have to realize that you will likely have to give up some of that ideal, because the perfect woman doesn't exist, any more than you are perfect men.

And with that, and with tongue planted firmly in cheek, I give you:

Hello Eowyn,

I do not have any problem finding a woman who wants to marry me. In fact I find myself having to tell women why I refuse to marry them. Unfortunately no one is remotely interested in why I can't get married and instead simply tried to shame me or manipulate me into signing a contract where I promise half my money but the women doesn't promise fidelity.

No one will address my issues. There are many women who have tried to turn me into their boyfriend and husband. There are many in my ward who have women they want to set me up with. Daughters and friends mostly. I tell them not to.

You are ignoring my problems. At least you didn't attack me with shaming like our fellow brothers and sisters though.

[stringsofcoins]

<p>

Friend, it's one thing to be cautious (and even, at a certain point in time, a little discouraged); but your post above goes further than that. It flirts with downright animus towards women.

• In spite of what your friends and men's rights websites may tell you--divorce is just as emotionally and economically catastrophic for women as it is for men. In fact, in most cases, more so--even when it is actually the woman who initiates the divorce. (I practice divorce law, so I'm not shooting in the blind here.)
• While it can be particularly galling for a male to have to pay spousal support, the simple fact is that a woman who puts her career on hold for 10-15 years while raising my children, deserves some help getting back on her feet if our marriage dissolves--regardless of the reason for the marriage's dissolution. State laws and divorce court judges are (slowly) adjusting to the idea of working mothers, and though things vary from state to state--speaking generally, from a legal standpoint with regard to alimony and child custody, men are probably better off in family court now than they have been at any time in the past thirty years.
• Children are not marital property to be divided along with the house, the boat, and the 401(k). Child custody awards center around doing what's best for the children (promoting stability and, to the extent possible, maintaining the status quo), not as an affirmation that the long-suffering, cuckolded spouse was actually Right™. That means that, barring actual unfitness (drug use, etc--and no, adultery per se is not parental unfitness), the person who has done the bulk of the child-rearing during the marriage will wind up with primary custody of the children. The simple fact is that--even outside of Mormonism, and even in the most progressive relationships--it is extremely rare to have a father who is more involved with the children than their mother is. (Oh, and if an addict of a mother gets the kids over a completely clean and otherwise decent and law abiding father--either someone's lying, didn't bother to get a lawyer, or had a lawyer who fouled up colossally. Drug use is fairly easy to prove using a follicle test--which, contrary to what you read on the interwebs, is not easy to beat--and courts do not like giving custody to unrehabilitated drug addicts.)
• Mormonism perhaps could have been more socially/politically involved as no-fault divorce gained traction--but then again, there were social and tactical/strategic reasons why it may have been in its interest to stay out of that fight (some of us, I understand, were kind of worn out over that whole ERA unpleasantness). But secular movements aside, I would strongly disagree with your suggestion that Mormonism has reduced the theology of marriage to preoccupied with feelings or "love" at the expense of commitment.
• I've not seen Fireproof, but every synopsis/review I've read doesn't describe that movie as glorifying the wife's cheating any more than it glorifies the husband's porn use.
• These men in your ward with the miserable marriages? I'm going to issue you a challenge: Print your opening post to this thread and show it to each of those men, one by one, within the next week. Ask them for their comments. In fact, invite them to register at LDS.net and add their thoughts. I'll bet that more than one of them will be utterly horrified that that's what you took away from their comments.
• As for the rest of your divorced acquaintances--take their stories with a grain of salt. I've met an awful lot of women with abusive, deadbeat ex-husbands, and a lot of men with shrewish, mentally ill harpies as ex-wives. Strangely, though--I rarely meet women who admit to have been the sort of women their ex-husbands complain about, or men who confess that they've been just what their ex-wives believe them to be. Contrary to your average sitcom or Lifetime Channel melodrama, being involved in an affair or being an absentee-father, porn-addict of a husband isn't really something most people discuss with their best friend at the mall or on a fishing trip.
• Not everyone in a skirt is a predator/man-eater in waiting. There are numerous spectacular, single women both in and out of the Church who do want a lifelong, equitable commitment to a good man and are more than willing to pull their own weight in such a relationship.
• I've been married for almost thirteen years now, and I'd do it over again in a heartbeat.

Sorry but divorce is far far worse on men. This is a fact. I'm not sure why you think it's OK to lie to me. I will not end up like my father. Or my friend James

Or my brother Matthew. Or my friend Steve. Or Andrew.

Again you made up lies and presented them as truth and you ignored my issue.

[stringsofcoins]

Here in California no fault divorce has been the rule since about 1971.

And as Just a Guy states there the law here is roughly the same. Remember when you are out there and hear some guy lamenting about his divorce you are hearing less than 1/2 the story. The kids could also tell you a lot that he won't tell as well.

At the peak, the divorce rate here was 50% of marriages. I think it's less than that now.

That means that there are out there millions, and I have known dozens of happily married men and women.

It takes two to make it work. Not one.

And it can work for you if you believe that. If you believe what you say in your post you won't be able to do it or make it work.

It's known as the self fulfilling prophecy.

dc

At its peak the California divorce rate was 80%. In response your state simply ceased to keep track of the divorce rate anymore so now nobody knows what it is. Please don't insert your lies into this thread. That's all anyone is doing. Lies are not going to fix my problem.

[stringsofcoins]

I belong to a group on line for LDS women who have been abused...many of them were or are in abusive marraiges. If I judged solely from that, I would share your view of marriage with men starring as the evil villains instead of the women as in your post.

The fact is life is messy. Marriage can be hard. Some partners are abusive, some cheat. But you'd be foolish too assume that is all there is to marriage.

Some marriages are wonderful. I have friends with whom we can talk about anything including sex and marriage and they are happy..very happy in their marriages. I have been married 21 years and I am very happy, my husband is too. We have 5 amazing children who are also happy. I hope you won't let your fears make you miss out on these wonderful experiences that could be yours.

Cool story. None if this has anything to do with why I can not get married.

[stringsofcoins]

It's easy to get cynical about marriage when it doesn't work out for some people close to you, but each failed marriage is the result of one or both spouses not acting as Christ would want them to. There are a great many good marriages within the church, more so than failed ones. My wife and I have been married for 26 years, neither one of us has come anywhere close to cheating on each other in all that time. We've had areas that were rough spots but there was never a time we were not close or our marriage not strong. In the past 20 years we have been in this ward I can count on one had the number of marriages that have fallen apart, and the only one that I know of where the wife cheated was one where the husband was emotionally abusive and drove her away with he behavior.

There are no guarantees, but if you are committed to living the gospel and marry somebody who is committed to living the gospel and keep your marriage as a priority in your life you have a far greater chance of success in marriage. Those who follow after the ways of the world are going to find it hard to have a successful marriage.

A man does gain a lot from the love and companionship of a wife, I would never want to go back to being single. There is also great joy in having and raising children. God did not make a mistake in instituting marriage and family, but the blessings of those things only come to those who qualify for them by obedience to God.

As for gay marriage, I think the fight to keep gay marriage illegal is lost, and that is why the church has turned their attention more to fighting to protect freedom of religion, but there is no 'fight' when it comes to the immorality of gay marriage. The church is never going to endorse it and members who go down that path will find themselves outside the church. The church has never taken the position that marriage and divorce are based on feelings alone. Marriage is a covenant with God, and divorce is only acceptable in God's eyes in cases of abuse, abandonment, infidelity etc, not simply because one of them feels like divorcing. While the church won't sit in judgement of a divorcing couple and assign blame, that couple will have to answer to God at judgment day for their actions

It's been a long time since I watched Fireproof. It is not produced by the church, I think it is from some evangelical filmmakers. It most certainly does not glorify adultery, in fact I don't think she actually sleeps with another man. If I recall right, they just have conflict/temptation and she says she wants a divorce. It is a story of a man fighting to save his marriage from falling apart and succeeding at it. The message is that if you work at making your marriage good and follow Christ you can heal even a very broken marriage.

Your attitude is leading you to cut off your nose to spite your face. A strategy of avoiding failure will not lead to happiness. Instead shed your angry and cynical mindset and pursue success. Other people's failures and weaknesses are their own issues, you are your own person. Get your head right and open your eyes. Somewhere out there is a beautiful daughter of God who you can have a wonderful marriage with. Make yourself into the kind of man she can have a wonderful marriage with first, then keep your eyes open for her. When you find her and marry her, make your marriage and family your priority and do your part to make it work, dont' sit there and expect it to work all on it's own with no effort from you.

I'm sorry but downplaying my problem and, hence, ignoring it isn't going to fix anything. So far no one has actually addressed my problems. You telling to to ignore reality isn't going to fix anything.

[stringsofcoins]

@stringsofcoins, you sound like my brothers. Both look at marriage the same way but one is also an inventor; a bit of a genius. He has fantastic ideas that would solve so many issues in the world - especially around energy independence. The problem is....he won't build anything because the courts favor these trolls who sue on patent rights. So, he continues to dream and feel frustrated that the world is holding him down. ---wish I was using an anonymous account right now :)

Fact is, you are too young and have a lot of life to live to be thinking you've decided on a path regarding relationships. I also see it a mistake for you to see your "friends" as permanent or that you are somehow bound with them by your current thoughts and ideas of marriage. You will meet someone with whom you will love and not want to lose. And, maybe you won't. But to blame the courts as the reason not to marry is a weak crutch that will break and is insulting to women. You know that and is why you wrote all this out to us. I hope it was therapeutic.

Now go out and treat the women you meet with some respect.

What? You just don't get it do you? I tell you that I feel unable to get married because the laws are so insane and anti father, having seen my own father destroyed, my friend's fathers (one of then killed himself when we were twelve), and now as I near thirty many of my friends have had their lives destroyed by cheating wives and man hating courts and all you can do is tell me to treat women with respect?

Are you all daft? I do treat women with respect. What is wrong with all of you? I've turned down women who want to be my future wife because I can't get married. I try to explain why and you all lie, flat out lie, attack me, shame me, and say a bunch of non sequitur baloney that has nothing to do with anything.

Ok yes I'll continue to treat women with respect. Thanks for your "contribution".

[stringsofcoins]

OP you hate women. Pretty clear, with that attitude you will never be married.

What? You come in here and tell me how I feel about women and you claim it's hate? What is wrong with you? Are you projecting your own feelings onto me or something?

[stringsofcoins]

OP,do you have any female friends or family?

I have a mother and three sisters. I have five nieces as well.

Edit - I've known my friend Alison for 13 years. She's older then me and turned 40 this year. She was upset last year and called me to talk as she lives in Vermont now with her boyfriend. She was upset because he won't marry her. He won't marry her for the same reason I won't marry anyone. Marriage is a one sided contract that gives men nothing but takes so much. I explained to her in detail the laws and how they are enforced in the secret family courts before she shut me down. I explained to her why he won't get married. She got mad and attacked me much like many of you. Apparently she didn't want to know why he wouldn't get married. She wanted to know how to manipulate him into it.

I have another woman friend I have known for eight years as well. She's married. She's one of those horrible feminists but other then that she's a pretty good person. I spoke with her about my problems last year. She sympathized and her solution was to "help" me with my libido by cheating on her husband with me. I'm not joking. We are no longer friends.

Other then those two and my sisters my other friends are all male. What does that have to do with anything?

I'm going to bail on this thread though. I have serious real concerns about marriage and no one will even have enough respect to speak to me about it. I'm sick of you people attacking me. I have a real spiritual crisis here and all you loving brothers and sisters of our own church simply attack me.

So no marriage for me. I'll enjoy all my stuff and, unfortunately, not get to have children. Perhaps I'll move out of the country and get married somewhere that doesn't have a bunch of insane anti man laws and courts. Maybe I'll find members of the faith who won't just attack me for observing reality.

Edited June 12, 2015 by stringsofcoins

[stringsofcoins]

Courts do not always give custody to the mothers. My husband's ex-wife was the primary care giver to their two chidden. Yet, my husband received full custody. She was not a drunk nor an addict. During their divorce there was a guardian-ad-litem for the children, and it was deemed that the children would be better off with their father. So, that was how the judge ruled. His ex did have 8 months to come forward and try for custody, but she chose not to. She was not required to pay child support. I think if she was required to pay, she would have tried for custody. She also did not receive any alimony.

Now, in my sister's divorce, she received custody of the minor children, but she did not receive any alimony. The judge ruled that she willfully chose to be underemployed, (she had a part time job rather than full), so she didn't deserve any alimony.

Courts always do give full custody of the children to the woman. It's default. Just because in one case the woman didn't want it doesn't change the laws.

I'm barely getting through this thread. I'm actually done reading this for now. I can't believe the lack of empathy and utter lack of caring I'm seeing here. I have a very real serious problem and so do all my friends, we talk about it in private, and when I try to bring this discussion to my faith I get attacked and ridiculed.

What's wrong with all of you people? How can you not see that you are bad people?

[stringsofcoins]

It does not, actually. Within the same job, women have a tendency to earn less. Much of this can be put down to the number of women who take time off for maternity leave and to raise kids during their highest earning potential years.

Hence why I said that numbers are thrown around with no regard to their context.

I also see many of the Men's Rights activists using the exact same tactics and using statistics without context to back up their argument.

You talk about how the majority of men feel the same as you. That is not true. I have been to no wards - And I have travelled a lot for work - Where the men didn't want to get married and those who were married said not to. None. Not even one.

Anecdotal, but that comprises several dozen wards.

After last priesthood session for general conference what do you think we talked about? The older men talked about how unhappy they were being married and how they basically hid from their wives, one guy spoke about how he was planning his divorce now that his youngest has moved out because he just can't take his wife's massive entitlement anymore. Besides she's been threatening him with divorce and taking his kids for ten years. Now she can't take the kids from him so he'll finally give her the divorce she's been using as a threat to control him. The unmarried of us past 25 spoke about how much we feared marriage and how happy we were to see someone in general conference speak to women about their own duties.

Though we all greatly fear the laws that we know are written and enforced against us because of our gender and the belief that women are just wonderful and do no wrong.

Some of the guys spoke about how they can't find a woman to marry. Only fat women that no one wants and a bunch of single mothers who have already proven that they are a bad bet in an already stacked game. I'm tall, in better shape then 95% of the population, have a home and a good job. I can easily find women who will go out with me and then tell me things like, "I'd make such a good wife" or "I'd be such a good mom", etc.. Maybe they would. Unfortunately it doesn't matter because the laws are so insane that I don't dare get married.

And nobody will talk about this.

[stringsofcoins]

Comments on Fireproof-Yes, if I had a wife as selfish and cruel as her, I'd look at porn all day on the internet too. Terrible movie. Badly acted, badly written, horrible message. My wife said it best "She wants to hook up with the doctor because he has cash-doesn't that make her a golddigger?"

Truth-Women will usually get custody and the odds are heavily titled in their favor. In divorce cases, many spouses don't understand that the reason they have a nice house, two cars, and can afford vacations in Bermuda is :: the horror! :: because someone works 80 hours a week.

Third-Change your attitude. Accept that there are double standards in life, laugh at them and find a girl who can do it too. Also, get over the whole sex thing. Having to live a life of celibacy isn't that bad. Sex is overrated. Your view on women is troubling as well, even though you make correct points here and there.

My wife is the farthest thing from mainstream. She can think for herself and agrees with me about the double standard. Women like her are out there. Just find them. In fact, a big reason why our marriages works is we are both selfish. We both live by the "In order to say I love you, one must for say I" rule. We're sort of cool like that.

Lastly, no one likes someone who is a negative Debbie Downer. I know people like that in my life who complain, nag and badger people all the time. Then they wonder why they are single and no one wants to be around them.

Thank you for giving me a real reply. I'm glad I decided to keep reading through this thread where I'm attacked for observing the truth and stating my very real fears.

Voluntary celibacy does seem to be my only option for the short term while finding a foreign country to relocate to in the long term. Unfortunately speaking Russian isn't as useful with our current cold war with Putin. I can occupy some time until I can relocate learning a new language.

And I can still follow my covenants this way.

I appreciate the actual response. And is course I have a bad attitude. Look what happens when I try to bring this up? I'm attacked relentlessly.

[stringsofcoins]

I think I have the answer. Serious. Here's what I did after celestial companion #1 cheated on me and decided to live off alimony anyway (all 50 states are no fault so women pretty much know they can do what they please and profit by it)

step 1. Only date women that are employed (harder for them to get alimony)

step 2. Only date women that dont want kids (my 2nd wife already has one, so do I).

step 3. Get a solid prenup, get it signed and notorized by proespect celestial companion #2

step 4. Get sealed in the temple

step 5. Build an escape plan. If #2 repeats what #1 did to you (adulteress) and gets the prenup tossed out with the old "but your honor, I'm just a woman, I don't understand what I signed" and quits her job so she qualifies for alimony then you use the 2nd language you learned on your mission and "disappear" to that country rather than pay alimony to another cheating adulteress alimony collecting daughter of Heavenly Father.

So far this has worked for me. Haven't used step 5 (yet). Trust me if you have not paid alimony to a spouse that cheated on you and even got pregnant in the act, you have no idea what you are dealing with. No idea. Men have every right to defend themselves from such women and do whatever they can to stay away. And frankly the family courts are just as much to blame. If I were a judge no adulteress would live off alimony from her ex husband. It's just disgusting.

I'm actually concerned more with being denied access to any future children. As this is what happened to my father and has happened to several of my friends. Though of course they still have to pay for the families that they are not a part of by threat of jail and state violence. I think I'm lucky that I didn't get married when I was younger and didn't realize what marriage has actually become. I'll say a prayer to thank Heavenly Father for that.

[stringsofcoins]

.

Edited June 12, 2015 by stringsofcoins