Question and opinion

[JojoBag]

I am not convinced there are more wicked people as a percentage of the population as there ever has been. Considering only murder, for example, I would hazard a guess that fewer people (as a percentage) have murdered someone else than at most other times in history.

 

Wicked people are those consigned to the Telestial Kingdom, the inhabitants of which will be as the stars in the heavens.  Liars, thieves, those who commit sexual sin, prideful people, etc., all go to the Telestial Kingdom.  There are a lot of wicked people who have died.

Edited October 17, 2015 by JojoBag

[The Folk Prophet]

Let's take a poll. Has anyone here murdered someone? I haven't. 

 

So you say...  

[Guest]

Statistics are the most misunderstood and misused of facts.

Child of record baptisms and convert baptisms are increasing. They are simply increasing at a pace slightly below the increase in population. Over the last 6 years the Church dropped a whopping .08% as a percentage of the US population (that's just under 1/10 of 1 percent). And though Carborendum failed to mention it, that is limited to the US. The growth of the Church outside the US is even higher (though our numbers as a percent of population are much lower. It's a big world).

 

No misunderstood statistics; no misused facts here.

 

1) It seems we're miscommunicating the meaning of the term "per capita".  My meaning is that as a percentage of the church membership, numbers are dropping.

2) I'm looking at the Church's own statistics in the annual conference report.

3) I did not fail to mention a statistic that I did not find relevant.  I was only talking about growth of the church as a percentage of the existing membership of the church.

Child of record baptisms have been flat overall (ups and downs) since 1995.  Prior to 1990, it was much higher.

Convert baptisms have been flat since 2002 or 2003.  A huge drop seems to have occurred in 2000.  Prior to 1995, it was much higher.

 

That said, you have a point about percentage of world population.  Our numbers as a percentage of the world population have doubled between 1980 and 2010.  But there was a change in the slope of that graph around 2000.

 

It is amazing how many of these numbers really took a turn around the year 2000.

 

Hypothesis: People got dissappointed that Jesus did not return in the year 2000 and decided the Bible and religion was a bunch of tripe.  Of course, it could simply be that the world is growing more corrupted and secular.

[The Folk Prophet]

I am not convinced there are more wicked people as a percentage of the population as there ever has been. Considering only murder, for example, I would hazard a guess that fewer people (as a percentage) have murdered someone else than at most other times in history.

 

If your standard for wickedness is murder, then perhaps. 

[Guest]

I am not convinced there are more wicked people as a percentage of the population as there ever has been. Considering only murder, for example, I would hazard a guess that fewer people (as a percentage) have murdered someone else than at most other times in history.

I think so, too. The more densely populated the area, the more opportunity for people to conflict with one another. It seems to be a typical tendency to conclude that this means there are more (bad, wicked, violent, evil, etc.) people. I suspect however, that as population increases the ratios remain relatively constant. Also, I think our increased ability to communicate faster and to more people makes it easy to draw conclusions that may not be accurate.  

[Guest]

Let's take a poll. Has anyone here murdered someone? I haven't. 

 

OH!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cDAqrywsHE

 

I did!  I did!  

 

Oh... uhmm... No nothing to see here...

[Vort]

If your standard for wickedness is murder, then perhaps. 

 

Murder is a proxy for wickedness. If you have a better measure, by all means enlighten us. But in looking at world history as a whole, I don't see obvious evidence that human beings or even societies are more wicked than they have been.

[Guest]

Murder is a proxy for wickedness. If you have a better measure, by all means enlighten us. But in looking at world history as a whole, I don't see obvious evidence that human beings or even societies are more wicked than they have been.

 

How about disregard for the family unit?

 

How about sexual immorality?

[JojoBag]

If your standard for wickedness is murder, then perhaps. 

Yup.  What about the sin next to murder?  It is probably the most universally flouted commandment on this earth.

[Guest]

... How about sexual immorality?

The world has always been filled with up to here with sexual immorality.

[Guest]

I'm not familiar with any history which shows Christians considering it accepted practice within the faith.  Participating or not it has always been a sin.

 

So many today consider it the accepted practice.  And they still consider themselves "good Christians" when they continue to "live in sin".  It is this contradiction that I'm really worried about.

 

Also, multiple cultures around the world consider adultery morally wrong.  Yes, I'm familiar with a few cultures that believe it to be the encouraged practice under certain circumstances.  But most consider it a high offense.  This has been so for millennia.  Scriptures show that some non-believing individuals would plan to murder the husband first rather than simply commit adultery.

 

How common is adultery today?  25 years ago I heard the statistic that it was 25% of married couples have experience infidelity in their marriage.  Can you imagine what it is like in other nations?

[The Folk Prophet]

Murder is a proxy for wickedness. If you have a better measure, by all means enlighten us. But in looking at world history as a whole, I don't see obvious evidence that human beings or even societies are more wicked than they have been.

 

The lack of murder, imo, in our day and age is more related to the enforcement of law than it is morality. It's a bit harder to get away with murder -- so people don't. I feel confident that a great many would if they could.

 

But anyhow....murder is a proxy for wickedness? Does wickedness need a proxy? Does it not stand on it's own?

 

I don't think it's provable anyhow by stats. True wickedness is in the heart and the heart alone. Wickedness does not require outward action. Only thought. I tend to believe the wickedness of our day is worse, and growing worse, regardless of outward evidence. But I also think there is a great deal of outward evidence -- murder aside. Heck, I've watched it grow and grow and grow in my own lifetime.

 

Sure, there have been other times when the wickedness reached ridiculous levels. Peaks and valleys throughout history. We certainly aren't the Lamanites and Nephites raping, murdering, and eating everyone around us. But broadly speaking, I trust the end of times is growing to become as wicked as prophesied.

[Vort]

But anyhow....murder is a proxy for wickedness? Does wickedness need a proxy? Does it not stand on it's own?

 

In order to judge the rate or quantity of wickedness in the world, we would need to be able to look into the hearts of men and women and see their thoughts and intents. We cannot do that. So instead, we need to find some other measurable quantity that correlates with the unmeasurable idea of wickedness. This is what I mean by a "proxy". If you use murder as a proxy for wickedness, I think we can see that, in much or even most of the world, wickedness must be at a much lesser rate that throughout most of history. If you can find another, more reliable and measurable, proxy, that would be great.

[JojoBag]

In order to judge the rate or quantity of wickedness in the world, we would need to be able to look into the hearts of men and women and see their thoughts and intents. We cannot do that. So instead, we need to find some other measurable quantity that correlates with the unmeasurable idea of wickedness. This is what I mean by a "proxy". If you use murder as a proxy for wickedness, I think we can see that, in much or even most of the world, wickedness must be at a much lesser rate that throughout most of history. If you can find another, more reliable and measurable, proxy, that would be great.

How about sexual sin.  For that you don't need to look into their hearts; just look at them and what they say.  For that matter, Alma had something to say about it.

 

 

3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.

5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

(Alma 39:3–5)

 

Let's put this a different way.  Sexual sin is second only to going to outer darkness and becoming a son of perdition.  You can kill a person without shedding innocent blood and sexual sin is below that type of killing.  As of 2010, 45% of all households were couples who are unmarried.  There isn't much murder that goes on in the U.S.; only 4.7 per 100,000 people, yet 45% of all households cohabite.  That means that 45% of all couples are committing the most heinous sin possible in the eyes of God and still not go to outer darkness.  That doesn't include those who commit adultery in their hearts.  That would jack up the percentage to the vast majority of the population!

 

Then there are all the people in this world who steal.  Theft is generally defined as the unlawful taking away and transporting of the personal property of another person, without their consent, in order to permanently deprive them of the item.  People like tax evaders, shoplifters, embezzlers, receiving stolen property, non-tithe payers, burglary, intellectual property theft, identity theft, fraud, oppressing the hireling in his wages, etc.

 

How about those who love and tell a lie, bearing false witness, deceitfulness, etc.?  Murder is a poor judge for the wickedness of this world.

[Traveler]

This weekend as I was reading and pondering I found myself reading in the Book of Mormon in 1st Nephi chapter 17.  Lehi and his sons had reached the land Bountiful on the Arabian peninsula when Nephi is commanded to build a boat.  In the process Nephi has a most interesting discussion with his brothers about why they left Jerusalem.  Nephi tells his brothers that the inhabitants of Jerusalem had become "ripe in iniquity".

 

I have ponderized what it may mean to be "ripe in inequity" and I think that Nephi tells us and it was not what I thought.  There appears to be to be two quite distinct "things" that Nephi is talking about and to my surprise it is not sex or violence as has been discussed in this thread.  I would suggest reading this chapter and commenting on my observation.

 

The first thing or step in being "ripe in iniquity" appears to me to be a rejection of the word of G-d as given by covenant through his prophets.

 

The second step in being "ripe in iniquity" appears to me to not just a rejection of the prophets but a deliberate effort to quiet their witness by plotting even (if necessary) to kill the prophets - I would suggest that this effort is actually an effort to use the law or portions of the law in order to execute the prophets (or those testifying concerning the word of G-d.  What is interesting to me is that Nephi indicates that they became ripe - not in carrying out their designs but in crafting a plan.

 

Not so long ago G-d commanded his prophets to (as a group) make his word know through what is now known as "The Proclamation to the World".  I believe that the general response to that proclamation - in general is a rejection.  This is being done through our laws.  In addition this weekend I was also involved in a discussion with an individual that has been serving a service mission that in part involved security for our church leaders along with full time paid security staff.  He told me that of late the brethren have been receiving ever increasing serious threats against their lives - particularly for the stand or things involved in the proclamation.

 

My purpose initially in starting this thread was to seek out what others are experiencing - Are there elements or subcultures that are progressing quickly towards being ripe in iniquity? As I look back over my lifetime and my experience - I am thinking that it is so and that at this point of our preparation - perhaps we should be bracing for the impact?

[Vort]

How about sexual sin.  For that you don't need to look into their hearts; just look at them and what they say.

 

Great. Do you have reliable statistics about the historic prevalence of sexual sin in the world? Remember, we're not talking solely about fornication, but rape, seduction, child abuse, molestation, and so forth.

 

If you do not have access to such numbers, then it's not a good proxy. Remember, we're not talking merely about the actions of Americans or of Hollywood portrayals, but of people throughout the world. The prevalence of sexual decadence in American society has exploded just in my own lifetime, so if that were the only measure, I might agree. But there are actually quite a few other people out there outside of the US, and even outside the so-called "Western world".

 

For that matter, Alma had something to say about it.

 

 

Let's put this a different way.  Sexual sin is second only to going to outer darkness and becoming a son of perdition.

 

That is not at all what Alma said. Not at all.

 

You can kill a person without shedding innocent blood and sexual sin is below that type of killing.

 

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Your assertion is that a 25-year-old fornicating with his girlfriend is a more grievous violation of God's Spirit than him poisoning his girlfriend or beating her to death by blunt-force trauma that doesn't actually break the skin.

 

Do I have that right?

 

If so, then I don't have anything to add to that. I think that assertion stands very well on its own to illustrate credibility.

 

Then there are all the people in this world who steal.  Theft is generally defined as the unlawful taking away and transporting of the personal property of another person, without their consent, in order to permanently deprive them of the item.  People like tax evaders, shoplifters, embezzlers, receiving stolen property, non-tithe payers, burglary, intellectual property theft, identity theft, fraud, oppressing the hireling in his wages, etc.

 

Great. Do you have reliable statistics on the historical prevalence of such activities?

 

How about those who love and tell a lie, bearing false witness, deceitfulness, etc.?

 

Great. Do you have reliable statistics on the historical prevalence of such activities?

 

Murder is a poor judge for the wickedness of this world.

 

As I have tried to explain already, murder is a proxy. So is any other sin. Give me a better proxy, and we can use it instead. So far, the proxies you have suggested aren't any better as a measure of wickedness. And your thoughts on the gravity of fornication vis-à-vis murder betray underlying beliefs that are incompatible not only with what I suspect is the beliefs of most of the participants on this forum, but (more importantly) with the teachings of the gospel.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Vort

[Guest]

So in terms of the original post questions, I’m wondering. Suppose we all agree that evil is increasing in the world, that societies of faith are weakening as the OP described. Or, suppose we all agree that evil is not increasing in the world.  Does it make any difference one way or another? Isn’t the day sufficient to the evil thereof? Seems the more important question for me to ask is whether evil is increasing in me.

[The Folk Prophet]

So in terms of the original post questions, I’m wondering. Suppose we all agree that evil is increasing in the world, that societies of faith are weakening as the OP described. Or, suppose we all agree that evil is not increasing in the world.  Does it make any difference one way or another? Isn’t the day sufficient to the evil thereof? Seems the more important question for me to ask is whether evil is increasing in me.

 

I think that turning a blind eye to the fact that evil has increased in the world is particularly dangerous. It's not really about comparison of evil today vs evil of yesterday, but rather that if one cannot plainly see that evil has increased, one might be, actually, unable to tell what evil actually is. That's a problem in my book.

[Vort]

I think that turning a blind eye to the fact that evil has increased in the world is particularly dangerous. It's not really about comparison of evil today vs evil of yesterday, but rather that if one cannot plainly see that evil has increased, one might be, actually, unable to tell what evil actually is. That's a problem in my book.

 

But TFP, how am I to know whether evil has increased during my lifetime? As an adult, I see a great deal more evil than I did as a child. But that is to be expected; as a child, I was sheltered from much awfulness.

 

Furthermore, I have no direct experience at all with conditions before I was born, so how can I compare now with then? Read the short and amazing history Breaking Blue and decide for yourself how police corruption in the 1930s compares with today. (Disclaimer: I am acquainted with Tony Bamonte, the sheriff at the center of this story. I went to school with his son. I thought the son was a bully, and the elder Bamonte had no love for my father. So I'm not predisposed to give Sheriff Bamonte a free pass. But I don't know how anyone can read this book and not feel outrage about what happened and about what Bamonte had to put up with and go through in trying to discover the truth. It's sickening. But don't let my weak stomach discourage you from reading the book. If you don't want to buy it, find it at your library.)

 

Finally, my experience is limited to my part of the world, which makes up only a small fraction of the earth's population. How can I judge the deterioration of conditions in India or China or the Philippines?

 

Bottom line: I do not feel qualified to make such a large judgment. I can see what appears to be the case with my litle part of the world. And with that view, in some ways (specifically with regard to sexual mores, elective abortion, and corrupt conversation), things do indeed appear to be significantly worse than when I was a young man. How that generalizes to the world at large, I don't know.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Vort

[Guest]

I think that turning a blind eye to the fact that evil has increased in the world is particularly dangerous. It's not really about comparison of evil today vs evil of yesterday, but rather that if one cannot plainly see that evil has increased, one might be, actually, unable to tell what evil actually is. That's a problem in my book.

Well then, explain further so that I can avoid perceiving a distinction without a difference. 

[The Folk Prophet]

But TFP, how am I to know whether evil has increased during my lifetime? As an adult, I see a great deal more evil than I did as a child. But that is to be expected; as a child, I was sheltered from much awfulness.

 

Furthermore, I have no direct experience at all with conditions before I was born, so how can I compare now with then? Read the short and amazing history Breaking Blue and decide for yourself how police corruption in the 1930s compares with today. (Disclaimer: I am acquainted with Tony Bamonte, the sheriff at the center of this story. I went to school with his son. I thought the son was a bully, and the elder Bamonte had no love for my father. So I'm not predisposed to give Sheriff Bamonte a free pass. But I don't know how anyone can read this book and not feel outrage about what happened and about what Bamonte had to put up with and go through in trying to discover the truth. It's sickening. But don't let my weak stomach discourage you from reading the book. If you don't want to buy it, find it at your library.)

 

Finally, my experience is limited to my part of the world, which makes up only a small fraction of the earth's population. How can I judge the deterioration of conditions in India or China or the Philippines?

 

Bottom line: I do not feel qualified to make such a large judgment. I can see what appears to be the case with my litle part of the world. And with that view, in some ways (specifically with regard to sexual mores, elective abortion, and corrupt conversation), things do indeed appear to be significantly worse than when I was a young man. How that generalizes to the world at large, I don't know.

 

Well then, explain further so that I can avoid perceiving a distinction without a difference. 

 

As to this, I don't know that it's a useful argument to make whether evil has increased or not in China or the Philippines. The point I mean to make is simply that when something like homosexuality becomes socially acceptable and we are walking along blinding claiming that nothing's changed then there's a problem. As to the actual statistical debate, I have no input, nor am I concerned with the output.

 

As an adult I am still aware of the things that were in my childhood. I can still study, read, watch, and understand them. I can plainly discern the difference in the television shows I watched as a kid, the messages therein, the focus, standards, and morality of society is plain. I can interpret that as compared to today's world, it's messages, focus, standards and morality. I suppose I could put together charts and statistics of these sorts of things as proxy for evil. I don't, really, feel that should be necessary or useful.

 

But sure, there were trends in my childhood that seem less common today. Of course in some ways I'm more sheltered now that I was as a child in elementary school concerning some of these things. The kids on milk cartons being an example of this. Abducted kids and serial killers and the like seemed to be a big trend of the 80s. But I would be quite surprised if such things really did occur less in our day. But if they have lessened, I would put it to advanced crime fighting techniques vs. improved morality. Of course we see trends nowadays of school shootings. But that may well be more related to the trends in nationwide news reporting, as there were school shootings that occurred in my childhood. Realistically, I think these things have occurred and will continue to occur. Will we see less school shootings in the future? Well, will Obama successfully take away all our guns? :) If so, will that diminish the school shooting incidents? If it does, does that really mean we're less evil...or just that the law has more control?

 

I can easily see that whereas the same evils existed, there is a distinct change in the broad acceptance of many things. Things that were once fringe are now mainstream. But they are more subtle, as is Satan's sometimes M.O. The calling of good evil and the calling of evil good is, undoubtedly, increasing. But it is, rather, subtle in many cases. Sure, the extreme of abortion is easy to see. Without knowing, I'd guess that the practice of abortion, as a proxy, might well show an increase in evil...but I digress. What I'm talking about is much more subtle, and harder to quantify. But it is plain to me, and it strikes me it should be plain to any who are witnessing the signs of the times. We are headed into darker days. And as I have said, I think it dangerous to ignore this, and don't think we ought to be turning what is a matter of faith and a moral compass into a statistical, scientific sort of query.

 

The reality of my point comes down to being aware of corruption as it applies to us. And whereas there are, admittedly, historical times that seem to be more overall "evil" than now, as I have also stated, I also take it as a matter of faith that the hearts of men are failing them. It doesn't strike me as particularly useful to wait upon statistical proxies for evil as evidence before we accept that the world is headed along the path that is leading to the end, as prophesied time after time in the scriptures. We know that the end of times are to be tumultuous in terms of wickedness to a degree that has hardly been seen before.

 

But I don't think there is much use in debating the point either. So I'll let my opinions on the matter lie at this point. (Not that I'm saying I won't answer further questions or what-have-you...just that I don't feel particularly driven to prove I'm right this time. )

[Guest]

Vort, I'm mostly with TFP on this one.  The OP asked for OPINION remember?  My impression is that it was more of a survey of people's impression rather than a call for statistics.

[The Folk Prophet]

Speaking of school shootings...

 

Just a quick perusal of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States is interesting. Of course it's wikipedia, and of course there are a myriad of variables that might come into play here that void this sort of thing as any sort of indication of an increase of much of anything. But...school shooting counts from this page:

 

1970-1979 -- 20

1980-1989 -- 21

1990-1999 -- 41

2000-2009 -- 46

2010-2015 -- 114

[Vort]

Vort, I'm mostly with TFP on this one.  The OP asked for OPINION remember?  My impression is that it was more of a survey of people's impression rather than a call for statistics.

1. Opinion is not the same as impression. The latter is the "feel" or "sense" you have of how things are, whereas the former is (we hope) influenced by such things as statistics.
2. The OP was as follows:

It would seem that most believe that evil is increasing in the world.  A question  -  opinions on the forum - Do you believe that people of faith are increasing in strength and resolve?  Or are the societies of faith becoming weaker and having less influence?

 

So the original question really wasn't about whether the world's wickedness level was increasing or not, but whether societies of faith were increasing or decreasing in strength. The other was a bit of a thread drift, something I'm always (almost) happy to participate in.

[Guest]

Carb: "My impression was that...a survey of people's impression..."

 

 

Vort: "Opinion is not the same as impression..."

 

 

OP: "It would SEEM that most believe...Do you BELIEVE..."  (emphasis added).  

 

 

Sounds like personal experience and what we gather based on what we see.  While statistics can play a part and inform opinion, it by no means requires it.  That is why it is opinion rather than fact.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Guest