Probably a "different" kind of Christian...

[bytor2112]

Not really shocked....just feeling worn down. 

 

Full story here

 

“I love providing abortion care to women, and I am proud to do so,” Payne wrote, adding that she and many of her colleagues are “not afraid, embarrassed or ashamed to say so.”

Payne explained:

 

Who wants to be an abortion provider?

 

I do. And I don’t have a nose-ring or a tattoo. I’m a 5’ blonde from Ohio and my last boyfriend was a pastor. In fact my Midwest, Christian upbringing is largely responsible for my belief that providing abortion services is one of the most meaningful ways I feel I can contribute to making the world a more fair and equal place for women.

Edited January 5, 2016 by bytor2112

[Just_A_Guy]

Absolutely despicable.

 

I remember a couple of years ago, a fellow LDS.net member was deeply upset because I likened our national abortion epidemic to a second holocaust.

 

I still don't regret what I said; and I continue to believe that we are a society of the damned. The face of evil isn't always a heavy-set cigar-smoking politician or warlord, sinisterly twirling his moustache in a darkened room.  Sometimes evil comes in the form of a blonde, perky, youthful twenty-something with an endearing smile and a medical degree.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

I know I am not supposed to believe the sky is falling.  But when I hear stuff like this... It's hard NOT to believe the end is near.

[Guest MormonGator]

iIt's just one lunatic. Many polls show support for abortion is actually fading, in particular with young people. 

[bytor2112]

  On 1/5/2016 at 12:23 AM, MormonGator said:

iIt's just one lunatic. Many polls show support for abortion is actually fading, in particular with young people. 

 

I wonder if abortion rates have declined. Plenty of lunacy out there....what is remarkable is that she is an MD and is proud of her "contribution" 

Edited January 5, 2016 by bytor2112

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 1/5/2016 at 12:34 AM, bytor2112 said:

I wonder if abortion rates have declined. Plenty of lunacy out there....what is remarkable is that she is an MD and is proud of her "contribution" 

 Rates I don't know, but support for unrestricted access to abortion has. 

[Just_A_Guy]

The number of abortions is also down, from about 1.6 million in 1990 to a bit over one million last year (source).

 

Nevertheless, popular attitudes about abortion don't matter worth a fig when the law is set by Supreme Court Justices, who are chosen by a President who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to take a living, breathing, squirming baby, dump it on a shelf, and leave it to freeze to death just because that baby committed the cardinal sin of surviving a botched abortion.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 1/5/2016 at 12:54 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

The number of abortions is also down, from about 1.6 million in 1990 to a bit over one million last year (source).

 

Nevertheless, popular attitudes about abortion don't matter worth a fig when the law is set by Supreme Court Justices, who are chosen by a President who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to take a living, breathing, squirming baby, dump it on a shelf, and leave it to freeze to death just because that baby committed the cardinal sin of surviving a botched abortion.

 I'm moderately pro choice but I agree, that's sick.  

[bytor2112]

  On 1/5/2016 at 12:59 AM, MormonGator said:

 I'm moderately pro choice but I agree, that's sick.  

 

You mean ...moderately pro abortion right? 

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:17 AM, bytor2112 said:

You mean ...moderately pro abortion right? 

 Yup. I know it's not a popular view. 

[bytor2112]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:17 AM, MormonGator said:

 Yup. I know it's not a popular view. 

 

I think moderate simply means that you haven't made up your mind or don't care to take a position on the issue. (not u...just those who claim to be moderate on issues in general)

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:20 AM, bytor2112 said:

I think moderate simply means that you haven't made up your mind or don't care to take a position on the issue. (not u...just those who claim to be moderate on issues in general)

 I understand that. I have some strong views (surprise!) but abortion is certainly one where I doubt myself the most. In fact, it is, by far, the one issue that causes me to rethink myself the most. 

And to make this clear-I have never been party to one, and if a pregnant woman asked me her advice, I'd tell her not to get one. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

  On 1/5/2016 at 12:59 AM, MormonGator said:

I'm moderately pro choice …

No, it's not "popular", and I'm interested in the PoV behind this statement.

I'm as libertarian as possible, but abortion violates the non-aggression principle.

Lehi

[Just_A_Guy]

I think, in much of the political discourse on this issue, banning abortion generally while allowing it in cases of rape/incest/preserving the mother's life or health, is considered "moderately pro-choice".

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:22 AM, LeSellers said:

No, it's not "popular", and I'm interested in the PoV behind this statement.

I'm as libertarian as possible, but abortion violates the non-aggression principle.

Lehi

It does seem to, doesn't it? Let's just say that I agreed with Murray Rothbard on abortion for many, many years. However, and not to seem pious (God knows I am the LAST person who should act holier than thou) lets just say that after my conversion I've certainly questioned my view on the issue. 

And we would agree on 95% of issues, I'm quite libertarian as well. 

 

Abortion is a bit of a controversial issue, huh? 

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[bytor2112]

I thought this was an interesting piece from the hypocratic oath:

 

I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.

Edited January 5, 2016 by bytor2112

[Guest MormonGator]

Many things bother me about both sides. For some people (no, not you Bytor. I LOVE your Silver Surfer avatar, by the way) it's the sole issue they can talk about and they can do little but rage about it. One side shows vile pictures of abortions (no, my 4 year old niece doesn't need to see that) and the other side screams at you for daring to say that a fetus might be alive. I don't like either side much, to be frank. Again,i'm taking about the people who abortion is "their issue" and that's all they can talk about. 

[Guest]

Hearts waxing cold. It's enough to turn your stomach.

[Guest]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:22 AM, LeSellers said:

I'm as libertarian as possible, but abortion violates the non-aggression principle.

Lehi

I'd certainly confirm the first statement.

 

But the second...

 

1) Ours is almost the only Christian faith that does NOT have an official position that the embryo has a spirit from conception.  Therefore, religiously, we do not know if it is alive.

 

2) A purist libertarian position is that parents have absolute authority over their children until they reach the age of majority.  That would include ending their life if you were truly "as libertarian as possible".

 

3) The Church's position on abortion is that it is "like unto" shedding of innocent blood.  But does not appear to be the same: Source.  Therefore, it would not be something that a libertarian would necessarily object to.

 

Do not mistake my position here.  I'm firmly pro-life.  But I do need to point out that the reasoning for it is not because abortion = murder.  It does not.  The reason to object to it is an entirely different matter.  And you cannot through LDS theology and Libertarian ideology make the argument against abortion on the basis that it is murder or is an aggression against another person.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Guest

[bytor2112]

Imagine for a moment that "those" people didn't exist. Passionate advocates for the unborn are perhaps answering a higher calling. It is a difficult issue for many, I think the church's position is the correct one and I absolutely loathe the shrill abortion on demand leftists. 

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:41 AM, bytor2112 said:

Imagine for a moment that "those" people didn't exist. Passionate advocates for the unborn are perhaps answering a higher calling. It is a difficult issue for many, I think the church's position is the correct one and I absolutely loathe the shrill abortion on demand leftists. 

 Many of us converts to the church have certainly questioned their past views on a ton of issues. From gay marriage (yes, a deepening faith has made me question that one too) to abortion. Screaming/preaching (again, not you. Both sides scream and preach) at the other side might make you feel good, but it accomplishes nothing.  In the end, it's a personal choice one makes to support it or not. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator

[Vort]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:39 AM, Carborendum said:

3) The Church's position on abortion is that it is "like unto" shedding of innocent blood.  But does not appear to be the same: Source.

 

...But I do need to point out that the reasoning for it is not because abortion = murder.  It does not.

 

• In a legal sense, abortion does not equal murder because abortion is legal, and murder (by definition) is not.

   

• in a strictly ecclesiastical sense, the Church has differentiated abortion from murder, though it has said the two are "like unto" each other, which should give any thoughtful Saint cause to avoid any statement designed to lessen the severity of the sin of abortion.

   

• In a moral sense, you cannot say that abortion is not murder. Only God can make such a proclamation, and to my knowledge, he has said no such thing.

[bytor2112]

One side has controlled the narrative and the courts that made it possible since the early 1970's and have taught a couple of generations that it is about choice and not about human life etc I do not like those who do violence or act fanatically either, but, I I get their frustration and I am certain our Heavenly Father weeps at our wickedness.

Edited January 5, 2016 by bytor2112

[LeSellers]

  On 1/5/2016 at 1:29 AM, Master of the Understatement said:

Abortion is a bit of a controversial issue, huh?

Indeed, it is.

Most libertarians support abortion on the grounds that it's her body being "invaded" and that a woman has the right to decide, after already having decided to have sex, to kill the natural result of the first choice.

But, with the rare exceptions of rape-induced and (usually rape, but far from always) incest-induced pregnancies, she invited the baby into her body, and has no right (absent a true threat to her very life) to kill her child.

(Even in the rare exceptions, there are viable reasons to reject abortion as a "cure" for the harm: it is unconscionable to administer capital punishment on the child for the sins of his father [and mother].)

Even if one were to reject the concept that a baby is "human" (against all conceivable logic, the baby is certainly not a calf or a snail), the greater part of abortion supporters defend the pseudo-right of snail darter to take all the water they need to survive — this (assumed) non-human should still qualify for their compassion. But, no! This is a religious issue (for both side, typically), and they cannot relent.

But this is not my real issue. Mine is Freedom.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

LeSellers-Ethincally, I am 100% English. Understatement, along with sarcasm, is in the blood. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by MormonGator