Another reason to Home School...

[David13]

Well David, I refuse to label my child or any child as "lowest common denominator"

 

 

Well, Eowyn I did not label, describe, categorize or generalize that anyone, your kids or any other kids were "lowest common denominator".

 

And I did not say you are a bad mother, I also did not say you don't love your kids.  I just want to indicate to you that you might want to look into what your kids are being exposed to at school.  And on tv.

 

Children will be exposed to a lowest common denominator of culture in school and on tv, which will include a whole host of stuff (not good stuff) that they would not be exposed to in home schooling, if the parents are good.

 

If the parents are bad then who knows what they will learn.

 

And as to Prison Chaplain, your comment about welfare schools, yes, many people pay taxes and then in addition pay tuition to go to school and never get any advantage out of the tax money for schools that they must by law pay.

dc

[Guest]

If you think I don't know that, or do that, then there certainly is an implication about what kind of mother I am. But carry on, feel good about your choices. I'm sure you make them with the same care that I do mine, and that you're doing your best for your family.

[Vort]

And she was a wonderful, sweet girl who was horrifically abused (sexually and physically. It was chilling) by her parents for years. She saw several other home schooling incidents just like that. And again, most other home schooling parents I've spoken with either ignore it or try to write it off. 

 

In my experience, homeschoolers do not try to excuse such things. Rather, they want such things to be presented equally and fairly.

 

If the occasional instance of horrid abuse at the hands of ostesibly homeschooling parents is to be held up as some sort of measure of homeschooling, then homeschoolers insist that the much more common instance of abuse at public schools, by faculty or other students, be aired with equal vigor, and in proportion to its occurrence in the same ratio as is done with homeschoolers. The only people who benefit by unequal measuring rods are those who have a financial or political stake in public schooling -- and they are exactly the people who should be summarily ignored in all such decisions.

[Guest MormonGator]

In my experience, homeschoolers do not try to excuse such things. Rather, they want such things to be presented equally and fairly.

 

If the occasional instance of horrid abuse at the hands of ostesibly homeschooling parents is to be held up as some sort of measure of homeschooling, then homeschoolers insist that the much more common instance of abuse at public schools, by faculty or other students, be aired with equal vigor, and in proportion to its occurrence in the same ratio as is done with homeschoolers. The only people who benefit by unequal measuring rods are those who have a financial or political stake in public schooling -- and they are exactly the people who should be summarily ignored in all such decisions.

Her situation and others like that don't show that all homeschooling is the problem-it shows that homeschooling can be a problem though. You isolate your family and it's easier to mistreat them. 

And my experience is the opposite. You bring up homeschooling and people draw the swords immediately. Almost like some (no, not you) carry a chip on their shoulder. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

Her situation and others like that don't show that all homeschooling is the problem-it shows that homeschooling can be a problem though. You isolate your family and it's easier to mistreat them.

Here, in Colorado, we had a "supervised" family, with CPS "workers" at the home every week or month who killed their son.

Family-Centered Education is no more dangerous to children than grtf-welfare schools are, especially if one depends on the government, in its schools or by its other bureaucracies, to provide the protection.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

Here, in Colorado, we had a "supervised" family, with CPS "workers" at the home every week or month who killed their son.

Family-Centered Education is no more dangerous to children than grtf-welfare schools are, especially if one depends on the government, in its schools or by its other bureaucracies, to provide the protection.

Lehi

I get the feeling you are a big government guy at heart, LeSellers. 

 

(kidding, kidding) 

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

And my experience is the opposite. You bring up homeschooling and people draw the swords immediately.

I can't speak for others, but we went through the hatred of Family-Centered Education from the 80s through the 90s, and it was horrific. We were threatened with jail, good members of the Church accused us of destroying their schools by taking our children out of those cesspools, neighbors refused to let their children play with ours. And those were the easy parts.

So, when people attack F-CEd, it's like living that all over again, and you had best bet that those swords will come out.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

, and you had best bet that those swords will come out.

 

So I was on to something then. Home schoolers are defensive.

I don't have kids and I wouldn't home school if I did. It's your right completely. But yes, many home schoolers ignore the negative effects of it or pretend they don't exist. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

I enjoy honest conversation free of rhetoric, and a former substitute that … uses hyperbole like "grtf-welfare" schools is disingenuous to me.

The misleadingly named "public" schools are government-run, are they not?

They are also tax-funded, too, right?

They are subsidized, and so are welfare schools. Just because someone pays taxes does not change the welfare aspects of grtf-welfare schools, not any more than the fact that a SNAP recipient who pays taxes on gasoline is a welfare recipient.

So how does this honest terminology offend? It is the truth.

Lehi

Edited January 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[prisonchaplain]

I was speaking of my own cognitive dissonance, not theirs. They were truly oblivious to the irony.

Lehi

 

But, THAT was my point.  They're not complaining, because that's how it generally is in the world.  Children do not have the "freedoms" adults do.  You, on the other hand, found this somehow troubling--somehow a true argument against the notion that we are a free country..  I guess I can see the irony on a certain level, but I would not want to see adolescents empowered to leave/quit school, based on their own autonomous whims.

[Backroads]

Yet in public schools it's easier to look into and attempt to fix problems of abuse. An isolated family who refuses outside help while they abuse their kids (my cousin was abused by her foster family who did happen to homeschool) is almost impossible to help. What is the tactic to help those kids? Just turn a blind eye? And I'm looking for the homeschooling answer, not a flip about what public school does.

[prisonchaplain]

 

And as to Prison Chaplain, your comment about welfare schools, yes, many people pay taxes and then in addition pay tuition to go to school and never get any advantage out of the tax money for schools that they must by law pay.

dc

 

I'm a strong supporter of tuition tax credits for private school enrollment (though I'd rather see a proportional (aka flat) tax).  Credits for homeschooling expenses are also something I would support, though I've never seen that proposed.

[LeSellers]

I would not want to see adolescents empowered to leave/quit school, based on their own autonomous whims.

It is my observation that those children who do not want to be in school, irrespective of why they remain (parental force, governmental force, lack of alternatives, etc.), don't do well in school any way. It would be better were they able to leave on a whim because the resources wasted on them to no avail could better be used (preferably by their parents and other taxpayers) to greater benefit.

It is my opinion that people who leave school early would be better off coming back to education (not necessarily in a formal setting) when they are ready.

My father-in-law, a hard core teacher, suggested that every child be kicked out of school at age 13 or so, and made to earn his own keep at manual labor. The result, he figured, would be that nearly all would gladly come back after two years and willingly learn. The whole force thing is antithetical to my liking, but his theory appears sound.

Lehi

Edited January 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Yet in public schools it's easier to look into and attempt to fix problems of abuse. An isolated family who refuses outside help while they abuse their kids (my cousin was abused by her foster family who did happen to homeschool) is almost impossible to help. What is the tactic to help those kids? Just turn a blind eye? And I'm looking for the homeschooling answer, not a flip about what public school does.

This is an evil world. There are evil people.

If the only reason for grtf-welfare schools is to prevent child abuse, I suggest that there are many other ways to achieve the desired result without interfering with a parent's God-given right to direct and control the education of his children.

And, as we can find out in the papers every month, the grtf-welfare schools are not perfect. What you seem to be advancing is that the best of the grtf-welfare school system in protecting children is better than the worst in Family-Centered Education. Please pardon my shock at discovering this. Please present any kind of reasonable evidence that F-CEd is more dangerous to children than grtf-welfare schools are. I have never seen it.

Since the aggressors in the hypothetical F-CEd situation are those in the "school" building, let's compare that to the aggressors in the typical grtf-welfare school building. One of the critical elements of my Jacquie's decision to take our children away from the bureaucracy was the physical harm: fights, stolen coats, and so on. Other children had their faces forced down toilets, were sent to the hospital, some forced to smoke, and the list continued (and continues).

It is simply not true that grtf-welfare schools are "safer" than F-CEd. And, when an F-CEd family does hurt its children, I cannot see how those children would be any more protected in a government school than at home any way: the bureaucrats are not capable of protecting children from a determined attacker.

Lehi

[David13]

If you think I don't know that, or do that, then there certainly is an implication about what kind of mother I am. But carry on, feel good about your choices. I'm sure you make them with the same care that I do mine, and that you're doing your best for your family.

 

I didn't make that implication at all.

However, I did get the impression that you were saying that public schools are some type of nirvana and that to suggest anything to the contrary was some type of blasphemy, and a personal attack on you.

If you do recognize that then you know why people are not so enamored of public schools.

dc

[Backroads]

Hey, I've nothing against homeschooling and agree with most if not of all of your criticisms against public schools. I'm not saying homeschooling is more dangerous, just that it's more difficult to see cases of abuse in it. You seem to be saying that abuse in homeschooling situations is fine and dandy, because bad stuff happens in public schools as well.

 

But you're deflecting my question, which is really one of pure curiosity. How would you handle the situation if you knew another homeschooling family were abusing their children?

 

My cousin spent several years in a foster home that officially adopted her. She had her nose broken twice, was sexually and mentally abused etc. If you knew this was going on in another home, what would you do?

Edited January 14, 2016 by Backroads

[Guest MormonGator]

Hey, I've nothing against homeschooling and agree with most if not of all of your criticisms against public schools. I'm not saying homeschooling is more dangerous, just that it's more difficult to see cases of abuse in it. You seem to be saying that abuse in homeschooling situations is fine and dandy, because bad stuff happens in public schools as well.

 

But you're deflecting my question, which is really one of pure curiosity. How would you handle the situation if you knew another homeschooling family were abusing their children?

 

My cousin spent several years in a foster home that officially adopted her. She had her nose broken twice, was sexually and mentally abused etc. If you knew this was going on in another home, what would you do?

 My thoughts too Backroads. 100% agree. 

[LeSellers]

So I was on to something then. Home schoolers are defensive.

many home schoolers ignore the negative effects of it or pretend they don't exist.

I'm sure that's the case.

But those who are far more ignorant about education are those who send their children to a grtf-welfare school because that's the way it is. I know of very few people who actually investigated the pros and cons of grtf-welfare schools. Those who do almost always choose another option.

It's interesting, for example, that grtf-welfare school teachers send their own children to private schools much more frequently than other parents. I don't have the stats before me, but, as I recall, it's about 40% more likely that a grtf-welfare school teacher will take his own child out of the same system that he's connected with.

Lehi

[Backroads]

. I don't have the stats before me, but, as I recall, it's about 40% more likely that a grtf-welfare school teacher will take his own child out of the same system that he's connected with.

 

 

Because we know too much. If homeschooling doesn't pan out for us, I doubt my daughters will be going to the charter I teach at. And it's a rather admired charter that has, for better or for worse, attracted a troubled population.

[David13]

I dated a girl who was from a homeschooling background and she had a truly horrific account of it. 

 

I was witness to rather horrible and apparently sexually involved abuse as a child in a Catholic school.

I do believe after a year or two that I knew of, the woman (Nun?) was removed, probably only to another school.

I don't know what authority removed her.  Most of us would not speak out even upon questioning, as having been threatened with death and eternal damnation if we did.

But that was the '50s.

Today it would certainly be grounds for criminal prosecution and lawsuits.

dc

[David13]

Here, in Colorado, we had a "supervised" family, with CPS "workers" at the home every week or month who killed their son.

Family-Centered Education is no more dangerous to children than grtf-welfare schools are, especially if one depends on the government, in its schools or by its other bureaucracies, to provide the protection.

Lehi

 

Lehi

I don't know why people just assume that the government can and will do things more efficiently.  My experience has been that across the board anything the government does is usually done in the least efficient manner.  But the most costly and time consuming.

dc

Edited January 14, 2016 by David13

[Guest MormonGator]

I was witness to rather horrible and apparently sexually involved abuse as a child in a Catholic school.

I do believe after a year or two that I knew of, the woman (Nun?) was removed, probably only to another school.

I don't know what authority removed her.  Most of us would not speak out even upon questioning, as having been threatened with death and eternal damnation if we did.

But that was the '50s.

Today it would certainly be grounds for criminal prosecution and lawsuits.

dc

 I can tell you that it's a problem with Catholic schools. The parents are usually in total denial and blindly believe the teachers, priests, etc. It's repulsive and deeply tragic. 

[LeSellers]

I'm not saying homeschooling is more dangerous, just that it's more difficult to see cases of abuse in it. You seem to be saying that abuse in homeschooling situations is fine and dandy, because bad stuff happens in public schools as well.

Not at all. I'm saying that the grtf-welfare schools are no protection against the abuse we both abhor.

It may be easier to hide abuse in an F-Ced environment than when the children go to a school. I don't believe it should be a serious factor in anyone's decision to support a parent's right to educate his children.

But, even if we assume your assertion to be true, we have to measure things on an equal basis. F-CEd students are certainly not more likely to be the victims of abuse than any other child. First, the vast, overwhelming, majority of F-CEd parents are doing it because they want the best for their children. And, precisely because they are evil, an abusing parent doesn't want to bring attention to himself by doing "odd" things like F-CEd.

Even in those cases (which I admit exist) where the parent remove the child from the bureaucracy and abuses him, let's set up an equitable vision: the F-CEd situation does not create the abuse. And even if the parent is using the camouflage of F-CEd to hide the abuse, the cost (not necessarily financial, but in terms of freedom for the other, peaceful, law abiding parents) is extraordinarily hig.

So, if we want to hold all F-CEd parents responsible for the abuses of a few, we should equally hold the schools wholly responsible for the abuses that happen in their systems. If we cannot or will not do that, or claim, as many do, that the school cannot be responsible for every actor in the system, then, to be fair and equitable, that is, using the same standard for both players, we cannot make F-CEd the scapegoat for those few parents who might abuse the program.

 

But you're deflecting my question, which is really one of pure curiosity. How would you handle the situation if you knew another homeschooling family were abusing their children?

How does the grtf-welfare school handle abuse on its turf? I ask, not to deflect he question, but to demonstrate that there is no one answer.

How does the system handle abuse that is not in an F-CEd family setting? Say, during the summer when the grtf-welfare school is not monitoring the children?

We need to make neighbors more involved (but without the potential for abuse as with the absurd CPS laws we suffer under today). We need more church (not "Church") involvement. We need to preach, teach, exhort, and expound the evils of child abuse. We need to publicly explain correct principles.

My cousin spent several years in a foster home that officially adopted her. She had her nose broken twice, was sexually and mentally abused etc. If you knew this was going on in another home, what would you do?

Your example shows that we cannot rely on government to do this job.

I cannot say what happens in your jurisdiction, but when our son and daughter-in-law got licensed to foster (with adoption in mind), it took background checks, training, and I can't recall how much other bureaucratic folderol to get the children into their home. How, did the state drop the ball in that case?

Finally, I am, in this matter (and some others) very Law of Moses: I want four-fold restoration. When someone sees that the law will do more than just throw someone in jail, but make him the victim's indentured servant for years and years, it may deter him from making anew victim.

And finalier, while it may sound callous, I'd rather have a place where we have freedom than one where we are always safe. First, it is impossible for us to be totally safe. Second, the old "if it saves one life, it's worth it" is a bad trade off. No, if it saves one life, it may very well not be worth it. Freedom is to dear to spend for feel-good utopias. ("Utopia" is Greek for "no where".)

Lehi

[LeSellers]

My cousin spent several years in a foster home that officially adopted her. She had her nose broken twice, was sexually and mentally abused etc. If you knew this was going on in another home, what would you do?

If I knew, I would confront the family. They need to know it's unacceptable.

If it continued, or if they threatened me (or her) with more violence, then it becomes time to call in the police. And I'd be glad to testify against them.

Lehi

[David13]

Since the aggressors in the hypothetical F-CEd situation are those in the "school" building, let's compare that to the aggressors in the typical grtf-welfare school building. One of the critical elements of my Jacquie's decision to take our children away from the bureaucracy was the physical harm: fights, stolen coats, and so on. Other children had their faces forced down toilets, were sent to the hospital, some forced to smoke, and the list continued (and continues).

Lehi

 

Ah, Lehi, it all reminds me of my good old days in public school.

I think it was the first grade where my crayons were stolen.  But I was able to fast identify the thief.  She used a black crayon to black out my name on the crayons.  And then write her name.  I used my fingernail to scrape off the black cover and there was my name.  First grade detective.  I was chagrined that she did not receive corporeal punishment.  But she was a very poor sad little kid.

dc