Another reason to Home School...

[Crypto]

I've seen both terribly schooled home schooled kids, and really excellent ones as well. Sometimes even from the same family.

Same is true for public school. Though I do have a few suggestions to optimize the public schooling system (mainly science based suggestions too). Not that it will happen. (Common core can be a step in the right direction, if implemented well)

[LeSellers]

I've seen both terribly schooled home schooled kids, and really excellent ones as well. Sometimes even from the same family.

Same is true for public school. Though I do have a few suggestions to optimize the public schooling system (mainly science based suggestions too). Not that it will happen. (Common core can be a step in the right direction, if implemented well)

Whatever the reason, though, a child taught in Family-Centered Education has a far better chance of being socially well adjusted, score well on the SATs and ACTs, and have more self control than his grtf-welfare schooled peer.

Lehi

Edited January 13, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Whatever the reason, though, a child taught in Family-Centered Education has a far better chance of being socially well adjusted, score well on the SATs and ACTs, and have more self control than his grtf-welfare schooled peer.

Lehi

Theoretically, but I've also seen some homeschool kids that I thought would've done better in public school.

[LeSellers]

Theoretically, but I've also seen some homeschool kids that I thought would've done better in public school.

And I have seen hundreds, thousands of children who'd have done better in Family-Centered Education.

I taught school, remember.

And, even if they would have done better in a welfare school, there is no reason to assume that grtf-welfare schools would be the best solution: private schools, or any of a hundred other options would still have been better.

Lehi

Edited January 13, 2016 by LeSellers

[Vort]

My introduction to homeschooling was the little brother of a favorite mission companion. Nice kid, and his mother was a good woman -- but his "education" was appalling. Seriously, "appalling" is the best word I can find for it. He was a smart young man, but it seemed to me that he was behind his peers in most areas of education (though his reading was pretty good). His mother, bless her heart, put him in karate for six months, then declared that he "knew how to defend himself". This was reflective of her overall mindset -- put the kid in some class or have him read a book, then check off that box.

 

Yet I was fascinated by the homeschool concept, despite the seeming trainwreck I was witnessing. It occurred to me that one might be able to do some really good things with a homeschool if one were to be strictly honest and non-delusional about it. This was just before or right around the time I met the future Sister Vort. Through our courtship and after marrying her, I brought up this idea of homeschooling, but she was dead set against it. Her own high school experience had been diametrically opposed to mine in that it was quite positive, something of which she had very fond memories. She was also determined to be a career woman (and she doubtless would have had a much more successful career than I have had so far).

 

It was not until we actually had our first child and she held him in her arms that something in her heart changed. She told me that she wanted to stay home with our baby and any that followed, and asked if I were still willing to pursue the traditional one-income breadwinner role. Within a couple of years, she reversed her ideas about homeschooling, too, and started getting excited about the possibilities of schooling our own children at home rather than sending them away for six to ten hours per day.

 

I will not pretend it has been easy or without sacrifice, especially for Sister Vort. But we are inexpressibly glad we did things that way, and if we had it to do over again, we would do it the same, but moreso.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vort

[Crypto]

I taught school, remember.

Lehi

My family is stock full of teachers. Aunts and Uncles, and my own Father. Some teaching in other countries. It happens to be a family favorite topic for some reason   Over the many many years, you learn a lot.

On average home schooling might turn out better, with the right well educated rigorous parents. You have to realize the bias in gathering data on home schooling versus public school. Was it controlled for income, parental care, parental involvement, parental education, child nutrition? These same types of parents will likely encourage and guide their children to success even in a subpar teaching condition. A condition that can be found in some public schools, while other schools are excellent.

You have to remember that an average is a mid point, half are above, half are below this point. There are plenty examples of well meaning parents who utterly fail to give their children a good education in homeschool.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Crypto

[Guest]

 

LeSellers, on 13 Jan 2016 - 3:09 PM, said:

I taught school, remember.

Lehi

 

 

No, you were a substitute for a year or two. That isn't the same thing and I wish you'd stop pretending it is. 

[LeSellers]

No, you were a substitute for a year or two. That isn't the same thing and I wish you'd stop pretending it is.

Yes, I was a substitute for four years while I was earning my MBA.

I had three classes I taught everyday for very nearly a year while the regular teacher was on maternity leave, and I knew nearly every child in every school in the district. The Superintendant did not know as many of the children as I did. There was nothing that any teacher did that I did not do, including playground monitor, bus monitor, grading and writing tests, developing teaching plans and anything else one cares to name. I sat in the teachers' lounge, and heard the conversations there (not all were respectful of students or their parents, btw).

If I was not a teacher in the grtf-welfare schools, then few have been. There only thing different was that I got paid a lot less.

I saw them close up, and the better I knew them, the less I liked them.

But, if my observations are not sufficient, I give you John Taylor Gatto, thrice teacher of the Year in New York City, and once the state laureate. Is his opinion good enough? He lambastes grtf-welfare schools in a half dozen books, hundreds of speeches, and articles in papers from the Wall Street Journal to the New York Times.

Between my Jacquie and me, we spent thirteen years teaching our own children. All are successful in life, two run their own companies, all are raising successful children, and with the exception of one little guy suffering from the-doctors-can't-decide-what-after-more'n-a-dozen-operations, all 33 of our grandhcildren are doing very well. Yes, some of them are in grtf-welfare schools, but all have been Family-Centered Education for part of their education.

So, I have experience in both settings. I have done thousands of hours of research. I have put my own money where my mouth (and keyboard) is. One ownders how much background others might have on the matter.

Lehi

Edited January 13, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

 

 

If I was not a teacher in the grtf-welfare schools, then few have been. There only thing different was that I got paid a lot less.

 

So you:

 

1. Held a teaching degree

2. Had to attend to continuing education

3. Attended faculty meetings

4. Specialized in a subject and/or age group

5. Had an investment in the same class day after day and

6. Made their lesson plans

7. Held parent-teacher conferences

8. Worked in tandem with the special education/speech therapist/counselor to figure out and employ IEP's for the students that required them

9. Participated in extra-curricular responsibilities

10. Graded papers in your "off hours"

 

Should I go on? 

 

I'm sure you had to do some of those things on occasion, but I maintain that a substitute is not a teacher. In fact, in my district a substitute doesn't even have to have a BA, they have to either have an associate's in any discipline, or pass a test that proves they are adequately educated to a high school diploma level.  

 

Standing in for a teacher doesn't make you an expert on the education system. Overhearing some conversations in the faculty lounge doesn't make you an expert on teachers (like you've never complained about the hard parts of your job with your co-workers). 

[estradling75]

And for all that... against a parent that has carefully pondered and prayed for what is best for their kids... And is acting on the answers received...   you got nothing.   They are holding to the iron rod with all diligence...  You might want to reconsider actions and comments put you in the role of the people in the large and spacious building 

[prisonchaplain]

Homeschools have the advantage of low student/teacher ratios, engaged parents, and few distractions from unruly peers.  Additionally, the teacher has a vested interest in the success of the child's learning, and any bias is in favor the student achieving his/her best.

 

Private schools have the advantage of shared values, somewhat lower teacher/student ratios, better-behaved peers, families invested and engaged in their students' learning, and less restrictions bureaucratically and administratively.

 

Public schools are always at a disadvantage, because they don't get to choose their students.  Additionally, they must think educationally, bureaucratically, administratively, and (as JAG points out) litigiously.  Nevertheless, the ones in my neck of the woods are much better than when I went to school.  There seem to be more honors/rigorous courses available, and everyone is being held to greater account.

 

As for home-schoolers sometimes being aggressive, I have seen it.  Some are so convinced of the righteousness of their sacrificial choice that they become "shocked and appalled" that any TRUE Christian would do differently for their kids.  "Public" becomes "Pagan," and there is the unspoken accusation that believers are handing their kids over to Satan's minions when they scoot them off to public school.

 

BTW, while I get the idea behind the label "welfare schools," given that we pay significant property, sales, and income taxes, I don't accept the implication that my children are welfare recipients because they attend public schools.

Edited January 13, 2016 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

I can vouch for all the statements Lehi made in post #33.

 

With no prejudice, I'm sure.

 

Look, I'm not trying to be in hand-to-hand combat here. I just want to make it clear that many (maybe even most) of us who aren't homeschooling aren't just being lazy or handing off our responsibilities. I enjoy honest conversation free of rhetoric, and a former substitute that says he "used to teach school" and uses hyperbole like "grtf-welfare" schools is disingenuous to me. It doesn't further the conversation or clarify anything. In fact, it just muddles things and, to me, makes arguments from such hold less water. 

[LeSellers]

My family is stock full of teachers. Aunts and Uncles, and my own Father. Some teaching in other countries. It happens to be a family favorite topic for some reason   Over the many many years, you learn a lot.

As are mine and my Jacquie's. Going against the grtf-welfare schools was very hard. In the end, even my mother-in-law recognized that the F-CEd choice was better than the grtf-welfare alternative.

On average home schooling might …

"Might"?! Sorry, it's nine points on the SATs

… turn out better, with the right well educated rigorous parents.

Sorry once again. The stats don't find any significant distinction between high school drop-out parents in FC-Ed and high-school drop-out parents with children in grtf-welfare schools, nor any difference between college-educated parents in each case. Further the drop-out parents' children in FC-Ed do better than the college parents with children in grtf-welfare schools.

You have to realize the bias in gathering data on home schooling versus public school.

Yes, I do. But even that bias could not cover the deficiency among the grtf-welfaer school inmates.

Was it controlled for income, parental care, parental involvement, parental education, child nutrition?

"It" was several studies, not one. All controlled, as far as I can tell.

They measured both scholastic achievement and social interactions. By every measure, the FC-Ed children did better by several points, a highly significant delta.

These same types of parents will likely encourage and guide their children to success even in a subpar teaching condition. A condition that can be found in some public schools, while other schools are excellent.

Well, by definition, FC-Ed parents are more involved in their children's education than grtf-welfare parents, so that will always be an incongruity. But, as with any bell-shaped curve, the higher average always favors the better placed population.

Besides, why should [parents have to undo the destruction foisted on their children by the state system? That was the tipping point for my Jacquie: she was spending more time unteaching the false than she would have spent teaching correct principles in the first place.

You have to remember that an average is a mid point, half are above, half are below this point.

Yes, yes, yes: I've taken three college-level statistics classes. Your "news" ain't news at all.

There are plenty examples of well meaning parents who utterly fail to give their children a good education in homeschool.

By your own admission, these same parents would have children who'd fail in the grtf-welfare schools, as well.

Please do not make the logical fallacy of comparing "their" best to "our" worst. That's why we have statistics: we should compare averages, not individual cases. That's to eliminate bias.

Lehi

[Guest]

Eowyn,

 

What's there to be prejudiced about?  He either did or did not do those things.  He did.  Either his family is as he describes or they are not.  They are.  There's not a lot to be left to judgment.

 

Don't think that I'm criticizing you.  I'm not.  I used to be more firmly against it than you are now.  You seem to be open to the idea, but you just don't think it's right for you.  I just didn't like the idea at all.  So, having been there, I have no problem withholding judgment when someone says they've prayed about it and decided on public school.  I'll still disagree, but I'm usually quiet about it.

 

It was largely Lehi's arguments and the example of his family that won me over.  But it took a few years of debates.  We were two individuals that could debate for hours without getting emotional about it.

 

The big thing is that I was concentrating on my personal results vs. theirs rather than whether the principle is right or not.

 

I'm not bragging when I say that I'm a lot smarter than most of Lehi's kids. (There's one that is probably one of the smartest men I know).  I'm better educated (in the bookish sense) and more well spoken, etc.  I can certainly debate a lot better than they can.  So, how was their homeschooling better than my public school?  That was a really hard sell to me.  It also didn't help that one of their close family friends was a perfect example of how NOT to homeschool.

 

Eventually, I saw how their family was. There are far too many details to declare here.  After knowing them for years I could only come to the conclusion that this would not have been possible if homeschooling were not an integral part of their family culture. 

 

I know it sounds cheesy, but it was their family that converted me by their example.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

So you:

 

1. Held a teaching degree

2. Had to attend to continuing education

3. Attended faculty meetings

4. Specialized in a subject and/or age group

5. Had an investment in the same class day after day and

6. Made their lesson plans

7. Held parent-teacher conferences

8. Worked in tandem with the special education/speech therapist/counselor to figure out and employ IEP's for the students that required them

9. Participated in extra-curricular responsibilities

10. Graded papers in your "off hours"

Yes, to all, except the teaching degree. I had certifications for teaching math and English, the CBEST in California.

An aside: my mother-in-law called up on a Friday night to tell us that the next morning, the CBEST in math would be offered a hundred miles away at 9:00. It was already 8:00 P.M. I decided that cramming would do no good at all, so I went to bed early, got up early, drove to Chico, and took the test. When I got my score weeks later, it was 60%, but I scored in the 80th percentile, and, since the top half of the senior/graduate cohort were certified, I was in.

We learn three things here:

1) It doesn't matter what the score was (I heard the lowest certificate-earner got only about 30%), those testees will be teaching children math in high school.

2) It doesn't take a teaching degree to earn a certificate in mathematics.

3) A certificate does not guarantee that the teacher is competent to teach.

 

I'm sure you had to do some of those things on occasion, but I maintain that a substitute is not a teacher. In fact, in my district a substitute doesn't even have to have a BA, they have to either have an associate's in any discipline, or pass a test that proves they are adequately educated to a high school diploma level.

Substitutes in California had to have a BA/BS or higher, as I did. We had to take other tests, as well, to show were were "qualified". And, finally, my military experience filled the requirement (less student teaching) to get a credential.

 

Standing in for a teacher doesn't make you an expert on the education system.

Not, but it doesn't hurt.

And, as I said earlier, I have spent countless hours studying the matter. It's not just in-the-field research, but scholastic study, as well.

 

Overhearing some conversations in the faculty lounge doesn't make you an expert on teachers (like you've never complained about the hard parts of your job with your co-workers).

When I hear things like "Teaching would be a great job if it weren't for the kids," it goes well beyond complaining about "the hard parts of the job".

Yes, it was an anomaly, but it was not met with shock, but nodding, knowing faces.

I'm sure you know teachers who've left the profession after less than four years. I left primarily because it was too hard to face the cognitive dissonance of teaching a history class where i was telling the students that they lived in a free country, all the while they and I, too, knew that if they were not in their seats, according to the schedule, listening to me preach, the cops would show up at their door and arrest either them or their parents.

Why others left, I can't say.

Lehi

Edited January 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[Vort]

We learn three things here:

1) It doesn't matter what the score was (I heard the lowest certificate-earner got only about 30%), those testees will be teaching children math in high school.

2) It doesn't take a teaching degree to earn a certificate in mathematics.

3) A certificate does not guarantee that the teacher is competent to teach.

 

We are a "hybrid" teaching family, in that we homeschool, but our older children have all chosen to attend the local public high school part-time to get a diploma. One subject we will not allow our children to take at high school is mathematics, and for the very reason you bring up. Math should be fun, at the very least useful, and public school math teaching sucks the joy right out of the topic. The first non-homeschool-taught math course any of my children took was when one of them took a precalculus course at the local community college during his Running Start years.

 

(I sort of wish he had taken that at home, too; it would have been fun to teach it to him. He just called me last night with a question about his BYU math course homework, which is second-semester [introductory integral] calculus. He's also taking physics, so this semester is shaping up to be a lot of fun for both of us, him as he learns extremely cool new stuff, and me as I get to review extremely cool old stuff with him.)

[Guest]

That is strange.  Math was one subject that I had good teachers for throughout my public school.  In fact, for all the bad teachers I had, there was at least one teacher each year that I learned a lot from.  I shudder to think what would have happened if my parents had taught me math or science... or anything for that matter.

 

Then again, individual results may vary.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

 I left primarily because it was too hard to face the cognitive dissonance of teaching a history class where i was telling the students that they lived in a free country, all the while they and I, too, knew that if they were not in their seats, accoridng to the scheduel, listneing to me preach, the cops would show up at their door and arrest eithier them or their parents.

Lehi

 

Adolescents generally understand that they are in the stage of life where adults are transitioning from being directors who issue imperatives to becoming counselors who give advice on-request.  They know they're not quite emancipated from childhood restrictions, but they can see the finish line.  Most do not consider it a draconian tyranny that they must remain in school until high school graduation or age 18.  Do we really want to go back to the days where parents pull their kids out of school to work the farm or some other job?

[Guest]

...Do we really want to go back to the days where parents pull their kids out of school to work the farm or some other job?

I highly recommend the book "Defending the Indefensible".  It addresses this very topic... among others.

[LeSellers]

I'm not bragging when I say that I'm a lot smarter than most of Lehi's kids.

No fair. You're Asian. Everyone knows that Asians have higher IQs than us poor li'l White guys.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

Home schooling also has it's drawbacks. I've seen firsthand some of the social isolation it causes unless it's done right. No, not everyone who home schools is socially awkward, but the more zealous defenders either ignore or don't want to admit it's drawbacks. I dated a girl who was from a homeschooling background and she had a truly horrific account of it. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[LeSellers]

Adolescents generally understand that they are in the stage of life where adults are transitioning from being directors who issue imperatives to becoming counselors who give advice on-request.  They know they're not quite emancipated from childhood restrictions, but they can see the finish line.

I was speaking of my own cognitive dissonance, not theirs. They were truly oblivious to the irony.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Home schooling also has it's drawbacks. I've seen firsthand some of the social isolation it causes unless it's done right. No, not everyone who home schools is socially awkward, but the more zealous defenders either ignore or don't want to admit it's drawbacks.

Sorry Gator, but your observations are limited to your observations.

Study after study shows that this is not the usual case.

However, I have seen the same thing in a few cases, but, then, I have seen many cases of grtf-welfare schooled children who demonstrate that same, or worse, social awkwardness. Some people are just less interested in socializing than others are. In schools, they are forced into situations where they must interact with others, when that is not at all what they want.

Unless being socially awkward is a crime of some sort, that ought not be a reason to castigate the few Family-Centered Educated children who are less adept at interacting with others spontaneously. Because, if that were the case, far more grtf-welfare schooled children would be guilty.

Lehi

[Backroads]

The vast majority of home schooled kids I've seen do just fine socially, and I daresay the exceptions would have been odd ducks no matter where they were educated.

 

My homeschooling friends and relatives are mindful about selecting or even creating curriculum and the kids generally seem to get all the essentials. The kids are active enough in their communities. I love talking curriculum with my cousins and the gal I visit teach, all homeschoolers.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Backroads

[Guest MormonGator]

Sorry Gator, but your observations are limited to your observations.

 

 Right, I was just adding to the conversation, and I made some great points. Usually the hardcore zealots of homeschooling put their heads in the sand and refuse to admit the downside of homeschooling. That's it. No, not all homeschoolers are like that. Oddly though, I've met a ton of home schoolers and a lot actually are defensive and zealots of home schooling.

 

And she was a wonderful, sweet girl who was horrifically abused (sexually and physically. It was chilling) by her parents for years. She saw several other home schooling incidents just like that. And again, most other home schooling parents I've spoken with either ignore it or try to write it off. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator