Can we spread some sanity re: education?

[Sunday21]

Dear Bros and Sis's,

Personal plead. I meet so many people through my job and church who have done a degree in an area where there are few employment opportunities eg education, forensics. There are also many people who go through a degree in which there are jobs but only if you get into the right stream, psychology, human kinetics, who never find out where the jobs are while studying so they can select courses accordingly. Could we spread the word, at least to the parents, that this behaviour is only a good idea if you have a trust fund? I was talking to a father as part of my job. He was going to steer his daughter into architecture -massive unemployment there in my country. I looked him full in the face and told him "it is nice to meet a man who is prepared to support his daughter for the rest of his life". He visibly paled. What if we routinely asked everyone who declares, "I am going to: work with autistic children, go into marketing (we have graduates from our very best universities standing by the side of the road with a sign saying 'give me my first job in marketing' every year), vet tech (minimum wage for the rest of your life), history, women's studies, geography (you need some very good connections to turn this into a job), It is very difficult to sustain life on minimum wage. Trying to both pay rent and run a car (very hard to live life without a car in many cities here) is very challenging. Poverty weights you down. It really bothers me when LDS parents say to me, oh my daughter will get married. She doesn't need to work. Well for one thing do you want to raise a daughter who needs to marry to survive? Have you ever read Jane Austen? Desperation is not a good state of mind in which to make a commitment for eternity. I wish I could persuade every parent to hire a math tutor! The demand for those in mathematically oriented subjects is so strong here, we can't keep them in school. By the way, if anyone knows a statistician who consults let me know!

[Guest]

To your initial question: No, we can't.

To your post: AMEN!!!

[tesuji]

I am all for using common sense.

But as graduate with a literature degree I have been saddened to see many people in recent years bashing liberal arts.

So far in my working life, I have had good careers in two different career areas.

So majoring in "less sane" areas is by no means a recipe for unemployment. You just have to be more creative, sometimes, in finding a career. Just having a college degree, in anything but especially in liberal arts, opens a lot of doors. Liberals education teaches you how to learn and how to communicate, which are valuable skills.

Education is for both 1) education and 2) jobs. I hope we never forget #1. If everyone only ever learns STEM subjects, we are on a quick path to being a world of highly skilled barbarians.

Edited April 14, 2016 by tesuji

[anatess2]

If you've been here a while, you might have noticed that I'm big on education.  It's a Family Tradition.  My dad is one of 9 siblings and in that family there is 1 lawyer, 1 general surgeon, 1 teacher, 1 architect, 2 nurses, and 3 engineers.

I graduated from Computer Engineering even as I'm more interested in programming because my dad insists that there's more money in engineering.  He's an engineer.

My brother graduated from Electronics and Communications Engineering even as he is more interested in soccer because my dad looks at him and says Soccer is not a career.

My dad is right about something... there's more money in engineering.  And without my dad, I wouldn't be where I am today.  My brother especially... because he sustained a bad injury while playing professional soccer and it affected his game... he retired early and is now using his Engineering degree to feed his family.

That said... I am not raising my children the way I was raised when it comes to choosing a college education.  My eldest son, for example, wants to play piano for a career.  I can just hear my dad in my ear... Piano is not a career.  It's a hobby.  If you're Mozart, you can make good money.  If you're not, you're looking at piano teacher... peanuts.  So be like my uncle who is professional musician on the weekends and a Pediatrician during the week.  Or my other uncle who sings with his guitar for weddings, funerals, and church services and a lawyer during the week.

But, I'm not telling my son that.  Rather, this is what I'm telling him.... Find something you really, really, really love to do.  Something you could spend your entire life doing for free.  Get really, really good at it.  The best.  Learn perfect work ethic.  The money will come.  I'll help you figure out how to make money out of it.  So yeah, he's trying to get good enough to audition for Julliard.  But if he doesn't make it there, then BYU has a really good music program.

So, he's only 14 and he figured out there's actually people who are interested in buying 15-30 second snippets of music he can create in his digital audio workstation for $10 a pop.  My other son who is 12 is helping him with the drumbeats... people buy 4 measures of drumbeats for $12.  The 12-year-old doesn't want to be a career musician though.  He wants to build bridges and skyscrapers.

Edited April 14, 2016 by anatess2

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

But, I'm not telling my son that.  Rather, this is what I'm telling him.... Find something you really, really, really love to do.  Something you could spend your entire life doing for free.  Get really, really good at it.  The best.  Learn perfect work ethic.  The money will come.  I'll help you figure out how to make money out of it.  So yeah, he's trying to get good enough to audition for Julliard.  But if he doesn't make it there, then BYU has a really good music program.

I like what you're saying. However, in my case, my daughter wants to be an artist. I will encourage her 100%, but I will also tell her to have a plan B to fall back on. My sister majored in humanities, but also got a minor in business. I thought that was wise.

Edited April 14, 2016 by tesuji

[Guest]

22 hours ago, tesuji said:

Education is for both 1) education and 2) jobs. I hope we never forget #1. If everyone only ever learns STEM subjects, we are on a quick path to being a world of highly skilled barbarians.

I don't think that was the point of the OP.  Her point was that many liberal arts degrees don't end up getting a job that would justify a huge expense on education.  The math doesn't support it.  So your advice to your daughter about having a plan B is what the OP was suggesting.

The problem lies in the fact that many liberal arts degrees require natural talents that are very common.  But to use such a degree to obtain a high paying job that would justify the cost of higher education is rare because such jobs are not as common as the degree.  Exceptions exist.  My brother used his English degree to obtain a job as a lobbyist.  And he's quite successful.  But such successes are the exception.  So we end up with a lot of people with a great education with a huge student debt and insufficient income to pay off such a loan.

And who says that college is the only way to obtain a good liberal arts education?  I'd take someone who simply takes the time to read the Harvard Classics and/or the Great Books of the Western World over an English Literature PhD 6 days out of the week.  So I have an engineering degree and I'm very good at it.  But I also take the time to read classics and commentaries and essays on such classics.  I find that I can write better than most English majors that I come across.

The other weakness of the "education for the sake of education" is that it often leads to shunning making real money.  Robert Kiyosaki explained that he is a best-selling author, not a best-writing one.  He tried to explain to a young lady that her English degree actually did her a lot of good.  But if she just put on a salesman's hat, she'd be a best-writing AND a best-selling author.  But she stood so firmly on the fact that her degree dealt with "art" not with something so debasing as sales.  Well, her loss.

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Guest

[Traveler]

It seems to me the problem here is not understanding the difference between education and training.  Education, to me, means to broaden our understanding of things.  Training is what we learn in order to do a particular job or function.

It is my personal observation that many college courses have neither education nor training value.  I may be wrong but I am thinking that is actual concern in the op of this thread even though it was not stated as such.  I am even more concerned that many institutions of higher learning are following the path of human exploitation – encouraging exorbitant and abusive student loans that make the institution rich and leave the students in such debt it is hard to distinguish from poverty. 

 

Traveler

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, tesuji said:

I like what you're saying. However, in my case, my daughter wants to be an artist. I will encourage her 100%, but I will also tell her to have a plan B to fall back on. My sister majored in humanities, but also got a minor in business. I thought that was wise.

Yep, Plan B is always great.

In my son's case, his Plan B is... Piano Teacher.  LOL.

P.S.  His uncle is a Pianist too.  He's Catholic, so he gets paid $60K to be the Music Director for the Catholic Church.  His son who is only 16 is also a Pianist (but wants to be a Doctor).  He makes $100 per Church Service (Mass, Weddings, Funerals) to provide the accompaniment and lead the choir.  He sometimes makes $500 in one week!  No such thing for Mormons.

Edited April 14, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest Godless]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Find something you really, really, really love to do.  Something you could spend your entire life doing for free.  Get really, really good at it.  The best.  Learn perfect work ethic.  The money will come. 

This is precisely what I did. It was a brutal path to take, but I'm finally at a point where I can say that it's been a success for me and, more importantly, my family. And I did it without putting myself thousands of dollars in debt. If you're good enough at something, you'll eventually find a way to turn it into money.

In terms of actual education, I think there's a tragic lack of emphasis on the importance of trade schools. Right now, there's a far greater market for skilled workers than university graduates. Not many people aspire to be mechanics, electricians, or plumbers, because society has taught us not to aspire to such things. But right now those job markets are ripe, and the money is significantly better than most people realize. If you're good at fixing things, own that and use it to put food on the table. 

You'd be surprised how many people there are in my industry with 4-year degrees who refuse to leave their bars because there's no money to be had in the fields that they studied. As for me, I could have done very well at a four-year college, but it didn't make sense for my career plan. I was the oddball who wanted to turn being a beer geek into a profession, and I accomplished precisely that, because I dedicated all of my time and resources to that and not much else. I see no reason why your son can't do the same with his musical pursuits.

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, Godless said:

This is precisely what I did. It was a brutal path to take, but I'm finally at a point where I can say that it's been a success for me and, more importantly, my family. And I did it without putting myself thousands of dollars in debt. If you're good enough at something, you'll eventually find a way to turn it into money.

In terms of actual education, I think there's a tragic lack of emphasis on the importance of trade schools. Right now, there's a far greater market for skilled workers than university graduates. Not many people aspire to be mechanics, electricians, or plumbers, because society has taught us not to aspire to such things. But right now those job markets are ripe, and the money is significantly better than most people realize. If you're good at fixing things, own that and use it to put food on the table. 

You'd be surprised how many people there are in my industry with 4-year degrees who refuse to leave their bars because there's no money to be had in the fields that they studied. As for me, I could have done very well at a four-year college, but it didn't make sense for my career plan. I was the oddball who wanted to turn being a beer geek into a profession, and I accomplished precisely that, because I dedicated all of my time and resources to that and not much else. I see no reason why your son can't do the same with his musical pursuits.

I COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree on Trade Schools!

I wanted to go to trade school!  I wanted to be a programmer!  There was no need to go to college!  Heck, Steve Jobs dropped out of college!  But yeah, this was not practical in the Philippines where applicants for burger-flipper at McDonald's have Associate's Degrees because of the level of competition.

But once the US economy gets straightened out again where the jobless rate is not as crazily high, then yeah, there's really not that much of a need for a full college degree.

And guess what... a 6-month trade course in underwater welding leads to a 6-figure income out the gate... 6 months of work pretty much pays for all that "college".

 

[Guest]

The Pathway program through BYU-I has an associates program in programming, I think.

[tesuji]

9 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

The Pathway program through BYU-I has an associates program in programming, I think.

Yep, and many other practical degrees too:
http://www.byui.edu/online/degrees-and-programs

My wife taught for the online Pathway program and thinks it's great. It's cheap too.

[Guest]

I'm considering a family history degree. I really enjoy it, and professional genealogists can make as much per hour as programmers. 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I'm considering a family history degree. I really enjoy it, and professional genealogists can make as much per hour as programmers. 

Be careful. Ancestry.com might have (key word, might) dealt a serious blow to professional genealogy. Not saying it can't be done, but it might be obsolete soon. And as interesting as genealogy is, it's still though to make a living out of it. Many people don't have an interest in it. It doesn't interest me, and I'm not alone. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Be careful. Ancestry.com might have (key word, might) dealt a serious blow to professional genealogy. Not saying it can't be done, but it might obsolete. And as interesting as genealogy is, it's still though to make a living out of it. Many people don't have an interest in it. 

I wouldn't count on it to support a family, for sure. 

I was actually pricing out professional genealogists myself recently. I'm pretty adept at using the resources available to us (mostly ancestry), but I'm still completely stuck on one line. Their hourly fee for research isn't cheap, and they often have practical knowledge only gained through experience that makes them more effective. 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I wouldn't count on it to support a family, for sure. 

I was actually pricing out professional genealogists myself recently. I'm pretty adept at using the resources available to us (mostly ancestry), but I'm still completely stuck on one line. Their hourly fee for research isn't cheap, and they often have practical knowledge only gained through experience that makes them more effective. 

Oh by all means go for it if it's your thing. But it's like majoring in photography. A good skill to have, a legit major-but very, very difficult to make a living from it and in constant danger of becoming obsolete fast.  

[unixknight]

This makes me think of the "I am the 99" movement, where every other image showed someone who was complaining because they'd graduated from college with a degree and couldn't find a job, or what job they could find wasn't paying enough for them to pay on the student loans and meet their other expenses all at once.  Of course, that degree was invariably in something that just isn't a marketable skill... and somehow that's the fault of... everybody else.

I think the problem is that for a long time we've been told that College Degree = Lucrative Employment.  That was probably true once, back when college degrees were generally marketable.  Now, what do you do with a degree in Womens' Studies?  Teach Womens' Studies?  Write books about Womens' Studies?  Gonna pay your bills with that?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Oh by all means go for it if it's your thing. But it's like majoring in photography. A good skill to have, a legit major-but very, very difficult to make a living from it and in constant danger of becoming obsolete fast.  

There are way too many faux-tographers out there. 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

There are way too many faux-tographers out there. 

Yes, totally agree.

Unfortunately there are others who disagree and won't pay the services when they can get what they think are quality pictures with a Mac and a digital camera. 

[Guest MormonGator]

And in the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of them. LadyGator and I paid for film and asked the maid of honors dad to take pics for our wedding. They came out fantastic and we saved a ton of money. No regrets. 

[Guest]

My sister took my wedding pictures. I'm thankful, and it did save a lot of money, but I wish we'd gotten at least a few professional shots. 

The problem is, every mom that gets a DSL-R for her birthday opens up a photography business. There are 3 or 4 of them in the next ward, and it's actually caused a lot of tension in the way of rivalry (enough that I'm not even in the ward and I know about it). Silly, if you ask me. 

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

The problem is, every mom that gets a DSL-R for her birthday opens up a photography business. There are 3 or 4 of them in the next ward, and it's actually caused a lot of tension in the way of rivalry (enough that I'm not even in the ward and I know about it). Silly, if you ask me. 

YES. 

It's so competitive because like you said, it seems like everyone has a photography business. Not to sound harsh, I know a photographer and he does fine. Super nice guy with a great family. It's just a tough business.  

Edited April 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest Godless]

24 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

My sister took my wedding pictures. I'm thankful, and it did save a lot of money, but I wish we'd gotten at least a few professional shots. 

The problem is, every mom that gets a DSL-R for her birthday opens up a photography business. There are 3 or 4 of them in the next ward, and it's actually caused a lot of tension in the way of rivalry (enough that I'm not even in the ward and I know about it). Silly, if you ask me. 

Heh, my brother has been trying to dabble in professional photography, and he's really not very good at it. He's booked a few sessions, and the results that I've seen on Facebook have been a bit cringe-worthy.

[EarlJibbs]

17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

YES. 

It's so competitive because like you said, it seems like everyone has a photography business. Not to sound harsh, I know a photographer and he does fine. Super nice guy with a great family. It's just a tough business.  

I love photography. But instead of opening a photography business I would just want to be out taking photos of nature or random things. Who is going to pay for that haha? So instead, I just do it for fun. I don't have to worry that it will pay the bills. 

What I would really love to do is cinematography for short films and documentary. Again, I make videos for fun instead, for my family.

I say congratulations to anyone that truly loves what they do for income. I think it's rare. For the rest of us, work on! I have been blessed because I have a very good job without a college degree. I was never good at school and it wasn't for lack of trying. My memory is atrocious. 

[LeSellers]

Has anyone had any experience (or know someone who does) with the Western Governors' University (wgu.edu)?

I have heard good things about it, but no one with personal knowledge.

Lehi