Evangelical with a question

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Your question was specifically framed in the narrow box of: [ Church is required = No dependence on Christ]. What my questions were designed to show you was that just because we say the church is necessary does NOT in any way diminish our dependence on Christ.

If you first try answering my questions, I believe you'll begin to see that. Please, try answering them. I hope that through answering them, you'll see the answer to your questions. If not, I'll try to explain how those answers also answer your questions.

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Your question was specifically framed in the narrow box of: [ Church is required = No dependence on Christ]. What my questions were designed to show you was that just because we say the church is necessary does NOT in any way diminish our dependence on Christ.

If you first try answering my questions, I believe you'll begin to see that. Please, try answering them. I hope that through answering them, you'll see the answer to your questions. If not, I'll try to explain how those answers also answer your questions.

I disagree, because I was very specific in how I asked the question. Please see the OP again.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Tobeloved

April 22, 2016

@Tobeloved,

Perhaps you should try just cutting and pasting instead of using the quote button?

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

3 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I disagree: they are the SAME thing. We are baptized unto repentance in the name of Jesus Christ. ALL sins, OT & NT are covered under Jesus Christ. ALL disciples of Christ must be baptized.

Do you have Biblical support for that position?

They are two different things. Always have been because baptism in Christ and belief in Him was after His death primarily. Plus Jesus began His ministry with baptism. That was the start of the three years.

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

3 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I disagree: they are the SAME thing. We are baptized unto repentance in the name of Jesus Christ. ALL sins, OT & NT are covered under Jesus Christ. ALL disciples of Christ must be baptized.

Do you have Biblical support for that position?

They are two different things. Always have been because baptism in Christ and belief in Him was after His death primarily. Plus Jesus began His ministry with baptism. That was the start of the three years.

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

@Tobeloved

I think this is a perfect time to go over the ancient interpretation of the Parable of the Good Samaritan (for those who haven't heard of it). You're familiar with the text in the Bible. Superimpose it on the following narrative:

Each of us travels along the road of life from birth (Jerusalem) to death (Jericho is near the Dead Sea). In life we fall victim to sin and transgression which leaves us spiritually dead. The Law of Moses (Levite) is there, but cannot save us. Likewise the prophets (priest) cannot save us either. But Jesus Christ (the Good Samaritan) came unto us and provided spiritual healing (binding up our wounds) pouring in the blood (wine) of His Atonement and the Holy Ghost (oil).

Then Christ lifts us up and carries us to the Church (the inn) and tells those present to take care of us and continue the process (which He pays for).

So, why the Church? Why the Inn? Why an Atonement? Why anything? Why not, as the Jews believe, just ask us to live right and do better, and no atonement is needed.

Instead, we believe that there are certain mechanisms that Jesus uses to do His work -- which is saving all of us. If we don't accept the tools He uses, we're refusing to accept Him. You know about the old joke "God will save me" -- I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter, and you refused all my help. What more do you want?

You do not think that the New Testament is pretty specific about salvation? Do you just feel that He came to save us from the penalty of sin and spiritual death to let us flounder aimlessly? He died to reconcile us who are dead in sin, back to God through the forgiveness of all of our sin.

Odd example, but it's like the red phone in the white house during the cold war, it went right to the decision maker in Russia. No transfer of call or wrong number.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Tobeloved

April 22, 2016

So, you still don't want to answer my questions? Pity.

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

the

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, you still don't want to answer my questions? Pity.

I'm sorry, I am having a hard time

1) staying logged in, I constantly get error messages

2) figuring out how to reply

I would like to answer your question, can you please restate it.

bytebear · April 22, 2016

But even with the "red phone" example, there is an authoritative hierarchy of who can use it.

bytebear · April 22, 2016

But even with the "red phone" example, there is an authoritative hierarchy of who can use it.

Jane_Doe · April 22, 2016

19 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Do you have Biblical support for that position?

They are two different things. Always have been because baptism in Christ and belief in Him was after His death primarily. Plus Jesus began His ministry with baptism. That was the start of the three years.

God does not change: He has alway cried people unto repentance and to come to Him.

Jane_Doe · April 22, 2016

20 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Odd example, but it's like the red phone in the white house during the cold war, it went right to the decision maker in Russia. No transfer of call or wrong number.

dup.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Jane_Doe

Jane_Doe · April 22, 2016

10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Odd example, but it's like the red phone in the white house during the cold war, it went right to the decision maker in Russia. No transfer of call or wrong number.

We all can call on God whenever we want. The fact that He also has a servants to help us does not stop that. Trying to set the two ideas against each other is a false dichotomy.

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

I have heard this hundreds of times. No one who espouses this theory has ever come up with a scriptural basis for it.

The Bible, again and again, points to the Church as the "tool" Christ uses to bring His people to Him, and to administer the ordinances of salvation.

Is baptism salvific?

Lehi

No baptism is not salvific.

I was not going to go this deeply into it, but since you asked for Biblical proof, I'll share these verses that share about salvation through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5

1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we^a have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we^b boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we^c also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6Y ou see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,^a that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in^b Christ Jesus our Lord.

LeSellers · April 22, 2016

5 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

Only after Jesus death were people baptized by the Apostles in Jesus Christ.

That's not how I read the Bible. We find this in John 4:1~3:

Quote

1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judæa, and departed again into Galilee.

In Whose name did they baptize, if not in Jesus'?

Lehi

LeSellers · April 22, 2016

Dup

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

Jane_Doe · April 22, 2016

1 minute ago, Tobeloved said:

No baptism is not salvific.

Baptism does not save a person, but a saved person should be baptized. As Christ Himself said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

Keeping God's commandments does not negate His sacrifice or the verses in Romans-- again, you're trying to set up a false dichotomy.

Jane_Doe · April 22, 2016

1 minute ago, Tobeloved said:

No baptism is not salvific.

Baptism does not save a person, but a saved person should be baptized. As Christ Himself said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

Keeping God's commandments does not negate His sacrifice or the verses in Romans-- again, you're trying to set up a false dichotomy.

zil · April 22, 2016

23 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

You do not think that the New Testament is pretty specific about salvation? Do you just feel that He came to save us from the penalty of sin and spiritual death to let us flounder aimlessly? He died to reconcile us who are dead in sin, back to God through the forgiveness of all of our sin.

I don't understand how Carb's post led you to these questions / statements, but the middle one (bold) intrigues me. What do you feel keeps us from floundering aimlessly?

Tobeloved · April 22, 2016

6 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

That's not how I read the Bible. We find this in John 4:1~3:

In Whose name did they baptize, if not in Jesus'?

Lehi