Urim and Thummim (spelling?)

[Aish HaTorah]

This is a topic I could have posted either in the Jewish or LDS doctrine section, but I chose here as I thought it may increase discussion.

I had a fascinating conversation a few days ago, and I wanted to ask you about it.  It all began with my daughter asking me a question.  The question was this:  "Why is there Hebrew on the flag of Yale University?"  Apparently there are flags from various universities hanging in the cafeteria at her school.  I proceeded (errantly) to tell her that she was mistaken.  I knew that Yale's motto is "Lux et Veritas," which is Latin for "Light and Truth."  She shrugged her shoulders and said, "ok, but I am pretty sure there is Hebrew on the flag."  The following day, she came home from school and told me she was absolutely certain that there was Hebrew on the flag.  I asked her if she read it, and she told me it said,  "האורים והתומים‎".  The transliteration is Ha'Urim ve Ha'Tummim.  Of course, I believe nothing my children tell me at face value , so I looked up Yale's flag.  Sure enough, there was the Hebrew.  I told her that she was correct and then didn't think much about it...until I started digging around as to why they chose to put this on their flag.  In the course of investigating, I learned that this is something known in LDS circles as well...the words, not necessarily the part about it being on Yale's flag...and this was very interesting to me.

So my question is this:  What does this mean to you?  I believe I read that you transliterate it as Urim and Thummim (although I may be mistaken about that).  There was a lot of information from LDS sources online that I saw, but it seemed complicated from your perspective and I am hoping that you will be kind enough to explain it in your own terms of understanding.  I am curious to know if it is inline with our understanding.  Thank you in advance and shalom!

Edited May 6, 2016 by Aish HaTorah

[tesuji]

I'm on my cell phone but maybe this will get you started:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/urim-and-thummim?lang=eng

[tesuji]

Also

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/urim-and-thummim?lang=eng&letter=u

[zil]

What he [tesuji] said.

[Aish HaTorah]

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I'm on my cell phone but maybe this will get you started:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/urim-and-thummim?lang=eng

I do appreciate that, and I will read it, but I am very interested in hearing your thoughts (as well as others'), my friend. 

[zil]

Read only the text of those entries (you can follow links to scripture later, if you want) - both entries are very short, I did it after tesuji posted them and before posting my reply - and that is what most Mormons think about the Urim and Thummim - at least at a high level.  (No doubt, some have spent extra time pondering and studying the concept and their thoughts go further, but I think those two summaries are held in common by pretty much every Mormon.)  Can't say I've spent a lot of time pondering this topic, so those summaries pretty much, uh, sum it up for me...

I could rephrase them, but they're so accurate to my understanding and belief, that it seems redundant...

[tesuji]

Well, start with those links, if you haven't. As Zil said, that's the basic info.

My thought is that I think it's pretty interesting that God sometimes provides "magic gadgets" to help miracles happen. I think there is actually science behind it, but we aren't advanced enough to understand how it works.

The U&T is mentioned in the Old Testament (see the links in that LDS Bible Dictionary link), and assume also in your Tanakh. I think the Old Testament has one or two other things like this? I think the rod of Moses was special in some way, if I remember. 

There's another very interesting gadget talked about in the Book of Mormon, called the Liahona:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/liahona?lang=eng&letter=l

"Magic gadget" is entirely my own term. Never heard other Mormons use it. My Mormon understanding is that God doesn't do "magic" but that he operates according to natural laws that we don't yet understand.

[Just_A_Guy]

As I understand it, the regalia of the high priest of Israel included a pocket in the breastplate (or ephod?) for containing a "Urim and Thummim".  It seems to me that I've seen Jewish-oriented websites that equate the Urim and Thummim with "lots" (as in, the casting of lots), and identify the words with something like "yes" and "no"; so that God could reveal His will by answering a yes-or-no question.  I have no idea, though, whether that's a majority or a minority view.

At any rate, most Mormons (myself included) would view the "Urim and Thummim" as working more like (pardon the base comparison for holy objects here) a "crystal ball", not like "sacred dice". 

[Guest]

If I understand what you are asking, the question is:  What do the words "Urim and Thummim" mean in Mormon theology?

There are actually multiple levels of understanding.

LEVEL ONE:

In scriptures and Church History, we see evidence of devices such as this being used for translation of unknown written languages.  They are often depicted as a pair of clear stones fitted together in a manner similar to a pair of glasses.  When an authorized individual (a "seer") looks through them, he is able to interpret the unknown language.  The exact nature of this process not detailed (though there are anecdotes to the contrary).

LEVEL TWO:

Beyond interpretation of languages, we also know that Joseph received revelation through the Urim and Thummim that had nothing to do with unknown languages.  So, they are also a device through which revelation can be given.  In the end, it is the power of God.  But a physical device is offered to us mere mortals (who are so tied to the physical) as a means to focus on the supernatural realm of Deity.  This has been mentioned many times as a preparatory means of understanding revelation.

Lights and perfections are the means of preparing men to higher levels of revelation and an ability to see through the veil in a way not usually available.

My personal belief is that mortals are only capable of opening themselves up to a certain level of revelation if left to themselves.  To truly understand the depths of the Lord, we need something else to help us.  For prophets whose job it is to see into the other realm quite often, it is important that they reach this other level much more strongly than the rest of us.

LEVEL THREE:

Once upon a time the Book of Mormon was described as a type of Urim and Thummim.  In the end, the Urim and Thummim is merely a means of focusing our minds, hearts, and souls on the proper knowledge of God.  The Book of Mormon is exactly that.  More so than any other book on Earth, the Book of Mormon helps focus our minds, hearts, and souls on the proper knowledge of God.  By doing so, it opens our hearts, minds, and souls to greater and greater revelation and eventually allow us to see through the veil.  

That is why we are encouraged to read it so much.  That is why we are supposed to ponder its truth.  This is the way we can come closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book.

In the end all knowledge is Divine knowledge.  The glory of God is intelligence (light and truth).  So, the Harvard writings may refer to the fact that all knowledge (light and truth) really comes from God.

 

 

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But a physical device is offered to us mere mortals (who are so tied to the physical)

I would note that God himself is tied to the physical. Being tied to the physical is not a bad or limiting thing.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Vort said:

I would note that God himself is tied to the physical. Being tied to the physical is not a bad or limiting thing.

 

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But a physical device is offered to us mere mortals (who are so tied to the physical) as a means to focus on the supernatural realm of Deity.

I do believe there is a difference.  Perhaps I should have said "limited by" rather than "tied to".

[Edspringer]

האורים והתומים is translated, directly to English, as "Oracle".

 

Well, I've done much study myself on the topic, once I became very curious about how this instrument really worked in both translating and receiving revelation.

 

As a Book of Mormon student, I’m really engaged in doing whatever I can to understand it more fully, and this includes its translation process. So, here is what I have found so far:

 

The Urim and Thummim is an instrument prepared by God to assist men in obtaining knowledge from heaven. In the Book of Mormon we learn about them as ‘interpreters’, as given to the brother of Jared and later to Mosiah, the king. This is the Urim and Thummim that was passed along from generation to generation ‘til t Joseph Smith got them with the plates to assist him in the translation process.

 

The ‘interpreters’, or The Urim and Thummim, consist of two stones set in silver bows and sometimes used with a breastplate. Joseph Smith looked through it and could see the translation of the characters of the BOM. Sometimes he detached the stones from the breastplate to make it easier. Other times he would put them inside a hat to exclude the outside light and see the characters with the translation below or receive revelation.

 

Joseph also had a seer stone through which he also received revelation and used to translate the Book of Mormon. He mostly used it with a hat to exclude the outside light to better see the characters and the translation.

 

It is interesting to highlight that both the two stones set in a silver bow and the seer stone are sometimes referred to as being the Urim and Thummim, in lds history.

 

We lds know that Abraham also had a U&T, so did Aaron. With it Abraham could see the stars and understand the cosmos, for instance.

 

As far as I could go to try to understand this kind of device, the U&T is certainly a very advanced technology, but I don’t think we don’t really understand it:

 

Frist: in 2010 a guy named Olavo Good, a Brazilian-American, developed an app that could translate languages instantly. You only had to open the app, select the languages, point your phone to the text and then the translation would appear on the screen, as magic (I don’t think so LOL).

 

Second: there’s another cellphone app called Skyview thought which one can use to look at the sky and learn about the cosmos. You can identify stars and planets and zoon in to see them closer enough to see their surface details. Magic? Not again!

 

I don’t claim to respond for all lds members nor claim to have all knowledge on the matter. I’m just sharing what I've lerned about the subject and interacting with you guys in pursuing more knowledge with that which our Lord and God has left to us in scripture.

 

Greetings from Brazil.

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Edspringer
grammar correction

[Guest]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 6:04 PM, Aish HaTorah said:

So my question is this:  What does this mean to you?  I believe I read that you transliterate it as Urim and Thummim (although I may be mistaken about that).

...

I am curious to know if it is inline with our understanding.

So, what is the Jewish understanding of the terms?

[Blackmarch]

On 5/6/2016 at 5:04 PM, Aish HaTorah said:

This is a topic I could have posted either in the Jewish or LDS doctrine section, but I chose here as I thought it may increase discussion.

I had a fascinating conversation a few days ago, and I wanted to ask you about it.  It all began with my daughter asking me a question.  The question was this:  "Why is there Hebrew on the flag of Yale University?"  Apparently there are flags from various universities hanging in the cafeteria at her school.  I proceeded (errantly) to tell her that she was mistaken.  I knew that Yale's motto is "Lux et Veritas," which is Latin for "Light and Truth."  She shrugged her shoulders and said, "ok, but I am pretty sure there is Hebrew on the flag."  The following day, she came home from school and told me she was absolutely certain that there was Hebrew on the flag.  I asked her if she read it, and she told me it said,  "האורים והתומים‎".  The transliteration is Ha'Urim ve Ha'Tummim.  Of course, I believe nothing my children tell me at face value , so I looked up Yale's flag.  Sure enough, there was the Hebrew.  I told her that she was correct and then didn't think much about it...until I started digging around as to why they chose to put this on their flag.  In the course of investigating, I learned that this is something known in LDS circles as well...the words, not necessarily the part about it being on Yale's flag...and this was very interesting to me.

So my question is this:  What does this mean to you?  I believe I read that you transliterate it as Urim and Thummim (although I may be mistaken about that).  There was a lot of information from LDS sources online that I saw, but it seemed complicated from your perspective and I am hoping that you will be kind enough to explain it in your own terms of understanding.  I am curious to know if it is inline with our understanding.  Thank you in advance and shalom!

Interesting.
If i recall right it means something like light and knowledge. In relation to the LDS it's the name-description given to a certain type of divine stone or artifact described as a clear stone or crystal through which an individual can receive revelation from God (i've also seen some things that claimed that some types can actually emit light). these items are found both in the LDS scriptures of the Book of Mormon and also in the Bible. It's believed (in lds circles anyways) the ones mentioned in the bible are similar to the ones mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
During the translation process of the book of mormon Joseph Smith used ancient spectacles had a pair of these stones set in the eyepieces (If I recall correctly i believe this set was the same one that gets mentioned in the Book of Mormon). One interesting sidenoteis that JS would often remove one of the stones and use that as the spectacles were too  large for an average man to see through both stones at the same time.

[Aish HaTorah]

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Carborendum said:

So, what is the Jewish understanding of the terms?

There really isn't too much thought put into this by your Run-of-the-Mill Jewish person.  There are a few theologian/thinkers through the ages who have put in their .02 on the matter.  One was Shlomo Yitzchaki (more commonly known as Rashi) who lived around 1100(ish) CE.  The other was Moshe ben Maimon (sometimes called by his Greek name - Maimonides but more commonly known to us as Rambam.  He lived around 1200(ish) CE.

Rashi said the following:

Quote

This is [G-d's] Ineffable Name which was embedded within the folds of the breastplate.  Through this medium, [the High Priest] enlightens his words and perfects his words.  In the Second [Bet Ha]Mikdash, there was a breastplate [for the High Priest], for the High Priest could not serve if lacking the required garments.  [G-d's Name,] however, was not [embedded] within it.  Because of the inscription [of G-d's Name, the breastplate] was to as "[the breastplate of] judgement," as it is written, "And he will enquire of him the judgement of the urim."

It was something that was both required for the High Priest and needed in order to judge or discern truth.  The High Priest was described as having worn eight layers, one of which was embedded with the urim vetumim.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

Rashi said the following:

Quote

This is [G-d's] Ineffable Name which was embedded within the folds of the breastplate.  Through this medium, [the High Priest] enlightens his words and perfects his words.  In the Second [Bet Ha]Mikdash, there was a breastplate [for the High Priest], for the High Priest could not serve if lacking the required garments.  [G-d's Name,] however, was not [embedded] within it.  Because of the inscription [of G-d's Name, the breastplate] was to as "[the breastplate of] judgement," as it is written, "And he will enquire of him the judgement of the urim."

It was something that was both required for the High Priest and needed in order to judge or discern truth.  The High Priest was described as having worn eight layers, one of which was embedded with the urim vetumim.

I don't quite follow with all the [substitutions].  Of both the quote provided and among others you've read, what are:

1) The translation of the terms "Urim & Thummim"?

2) The use or understanding of what they mean?

Incidentally, the Urim and Thummim that Joseph used were also fastened to a breastplate.  While I'm not aware of any written record of how it was attached, it is often depicted as being attached to a breastplate via an articulating arm or sorts.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Guest

[Just_A_Guy]

43 minutes ago, zomarah said:

I agree with a lot of what you said. But I think this^ is a bit of a stretch. The technique that utilizes these physical objects is called scrying. These tools serve as a focus to access the subconscious mind. Any words, visions, or revelations don't come from the stone (or whatever other medium us being used), the come from the mind of the scryer(presumably as the result of divine influence, or whatever other power is being called upon). So I don't think we can say they are a technological device of any kind unless you consider the brain a technological device.

While the Nephite Interpreters and Joseph Smith's Seer stone are common references to this tool there are many others.

Pslams 118:15 & 16 is a reference to the ancient technique of oil scrying in which the thumbnail of the right hand would be anointed with oil and used to receive visions.
The Liahona was a scrying tool. Notice how it only worked on faith and it was said that words would appear on it.

Lots of interesting insights here!  I would note that the Liahona does seem to be a bit of an aberration, in that the writing that appeared on it was objectively verifiable by faithless third parties (see e.g. 1 Ne 16:27, 29).

Quote

The earth becoming a sea of glass and fire and being used to obtain knowledge pertaining to lower kingdoms is a reference to scrying.

Finally the white stone with the new name written on it, being used to obtain knowledge of higher kingdoms.

The interesting thing to me, is that if we are really going to become as we believe God is (including, omniscient)--why would we need a Urim and Thummim at all?  Could it be that God is not truly omniscient by nature, and that the possession of a U&T is actually the defining characteristic that makes God a God?  Or, might divine beings just find the U&T a handy tool for showing things to associates who aren't as omniscient as they themselves are?  Or is "Urim and Thummim", in this context, merely metaphorical as an example of our ultimate power to learn divine mysteries at will?  I rather lean towards the latter view.

Quote

Looking at Joseph Smith, we see that he used these scrying tools to obtain revelations etc., and then later didn't use it so much. So we could say that these are temporary aids or training wheels for receiving revelation. But I wonder why we think that we can skip these preparatory techniques and skip straight to the advanced levels?

If it's not preparatory and simply a different method of receiving revelation, then why isn't scrying promoted as a technique equal in power to regular prayer?

Just some questions I had floating around in my mind.

I don't think a U&T/seer stone is an effective means of obtaining revelation for everyone.  I think they were effective for Joseph specifically, because he was prepared to accept them as a reliable means of revelation.

It strikes me as very, very likely that Limhi's men recovered the Jaredite U&T--the one Joseph would use in (the beginning of) his translation of the gold plates--concurrently with their recovery of Ether's twenty-four gold plates.  (Otherwise, how did Mosiah get the Jaredite Urim and Thummim before he even knew there were Jaredites?  I rather suspect that Mosiah's status as a "seer" derived from his ability to obtain revelation via the Liahona.)  So, Limhi actually had a set of perfectly good seer stones--but they didn't do him any good, because he either didn't know or didn't believe what they were able to do.

I rather suspect the modern church shies away from this sort of thing because of the potential for imitation/third-party interference as well as its association with other black-magic-type practices that can be affirmatively harmful.  And of course, the fact that the practice is seen as so gosh-darned disrespectable, probably doesn't help either. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It strikes me as very, very likely that Limhi's men recovered the Jaredite U&T--the one Joseph would use in (the beginning of) his translation of the gold plates--concurrently with their recovery of Ether's twenty-four gold plates.  (Otherwise, how did Mosiah get the Jaredite Urim and Thummim before he even knew there were Jaredites?  I rather suspect that Mosiah's status as a "seer" derived from his ability to obtain revelation via the Liahona.)

Picky point, but I'm pretty sure you're mistaken here, JAG. Omni 20 tells us that king Mosiah I "did interpret the engravings [on the large Jaredite stone] by the gift and power of God." This was the stone that told of Coriantumr, and appears to have been discovered right around the time that the southern-bound group left for the land of Nephi. Then in Mosiah 8:13, Ammon I informs king Limhi that the current Nephite king, Mosiah II, "has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish." Since this is before the southern group reunited with the Nephites at Zarahemla, it is clear that Mosiah had a urim and thummim, probably the same had by his grandfather Mosiah.

[Edspringer]

On 16/05/2016 at 6:52 PM, zomarah said:

 

I agree with a lot of what you said. But I think this^ is a bit of a stretch. The technique that utilizes these physical objects is called scrying. These tools serve as a focus to access the subconscious mind. Any words, visions, or revelations don't come from the stone (or whatever other medium us being used), the come from the mind of the scryer(presumably as the result of divine influence, or whatever other power is being called upon). So I don't think we can say they are a technological device of any kind unless you consider the brain a technological device.

While the Nephite Interpreters and Joseph Smith's Seer stone are common references to this tool there are many others.

Pslams 118:15 & 16 is a reference to the ancient technique of oil scrying in which the thumbnail of the right hand would be anointed with oil and used to receive visions.
The Liahona was a scrying tool. Notice how it only worked on faith and it was said that words would appear on it.

The earth becoming a sea of glass and fire and being used to obtain knowledge pertaining to lower kingdoms is a reference to scrying.

Finally the white stone with the new name written on it, being used to obtain knowledge of higher kingdoms.

Looking at Joseph Smith, we see that he used these scrying tools to obtain revelations etc., and then later didn't use it so much. So we could say that these are temporary aids or training wheels for receiving revelation. But I wonder why we think that we can skip these preparatory techniques and skip straight to the advanced levels?

If it's not preparatory and simply a different method of receiving revelation, then why isn't scrying promoted as a technique equal in power to regular prayer?

Just some questions I had floating around in my mind.

Good reply. Thanx for that.

You mentioned techniques referring to the act of receiving revelation through the U&T and other objects. I agree with that. Joseph Smith started using some objects to receive revelation, but as soon as he learned how to receive communication from heaven by himself, he stopped using them. 

You said these objects were aids to somehow activate or access the subconscious mind. That is something I have some problems agreeing with. We learned through Church history that Joseph saw words on the stone he used inside the hat and the same happened to the U&T. Do you mean that he didn't actually see these words but they only appeared in his mind? In other words, he visualized them or pictured the in his mind. My concern is that it sounds like prophets of all dispensations had some kind of  a‘trip’ instead of really seeing things by God’s power.

See, I don’t mean to be rude or something, I’m just trying to understand what you replied and I’d be most glad to have you explain it better to me.

What you said about faith as a means by which one can receive revelation through theses scrying tools is something that makes perfect sense to me, though.

[Edspringer]

Now that you mentioned spirtual eyes, it makes a lot more sense to me.

Technology and technique are pretty much related, since technology is the mastery of the technique, in this case, to obtain revelaion. 

We should consider these terms: prophet, seer, revelator, visionary.

We should also consider the role of the Holy Ghost as a Revelator and the means by which He guides us. 

Thanx once more.