Rodrigo Duterte - President of the Philippines

[anatess2]

It's not yet official but the numbers are showing that Duterte's closest rival is too far behind to catch up.  So, President Duterte - the "Trump" of the Philippines.  So, that's interesting that Trump's influence has already bore fruit across the Pacific.

Edited May 10, 2016 by anatess2

[Just_A_Guy]

On 5/10/2016 at 10:46 PM, anatess2 said:

It's not yet official but the numbers are showing that Duterte's closest rival is too far behind to catch up.  So, President Duterte - the "Trump" of the Philippines.  So, that's interesting that Trump's influence has already bore fruit across the Pacific.

I'm not sure that's something to brag about.

[anatess2]

31 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I'm not sure that's something to brag about.

And here is an example of why you shouldn't make rash judgements especially when you have no idea what you're talking about...

I can explain it to you but I have a feeling it's not gonna make a difference.  Closed minds and all that...

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by anatess2

[Just_A_Guy]

Wow, from zero to ad hominem in three posts.  That must be some kind of a record.

[Vort]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Wow, from zero to ad hominem in three posts.  That must be some kind of a record.

She would not have written that if you hadn't gone all Hitler on her.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

She would not have written that if you hadn't gone all Hitler on her.

Vort, you are Hitler for writing this. 

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Wow, from zero to ad hominem in three posts.  That must be some kind of a record.

Jag, only Hitler would say that. 

[Vort]

MG, you're worse than Hitler.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

MG, you're worse than Hitler.

I prefer to be Cromwell. You saying this proves my point that you are Hitler and Stalin combined. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Wow, from zero to ad hominem in three posts.  That must be some kind of a record.

Ad hominem only applies if I bothered to respond to your stupid attack on Duterte.  I've spent almost a year already on the Philippine elections.  It's finally over and done with and my family all came out of it safe and unharmed in a mostly successful venture.

I could have explained the implications of that wikipedia link to you if it would have meant anything.  But it won't.  Because for some reason, your hatred of Trump brought you to this point where you would use wikipedia to trash a President-elect of a foreign country and the people who put him there.  That is beyond anything that can be approached by reason.  Ad hominem notwithstanding.

Edited May 11, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest]

So, if one person is Hitler and another is Stalin, then someone is worse than Hitler and Stalin combined, does that mean that infinity + infinity  >  Infinity^2?  Or is omnipotent less omnipotent than another omnipotent who's more omnipotent?

And what exactly do you get the man who truly has everything?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And what exactly do you get the man who truly has everything?

You buy me Silly Putty Carb. Silly Putty. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You buy me Silly Putty Carb. Silly Putty. 

Silly Putty.  So if I get it for you, you'd put it on a WWII comic book and start stretching out Hitler's face like TTHHHHIIIIIIIISSSSSS!

See, I brought it back to Hitler again.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Silly Putty.  So if I get it for you, you'd put it on a WWII comic book and start stretching out Hitler's face like TTHHHHIIIIIIIISSSSSS!

See, I brought it back to Hitler again.

LOL! If I had WWII comics I'd sell them and invest in mutual funds. Mutual funds kid. A must have. 

[Just_A_Guy]

18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ad hominem only applies if I bothered to respond to your stupid attack on Duterte.  I've spent almost a year already on the Philippine elections.  It's finally over and done with and my family all came out of it safe and unharmed in a mostly successful venture.

I could have explained the implications of that wikipedia link to you if it would have meant anything.  But it won't.  Because for some reason, your hatred of Trump brought you to this point where you would use wikipedia to trash a President-elect of a foreign country and the people who put him there.  That is beyond anything that can be approached by reason.  Ad hominem notwithstanding.

Beautifully argued, Anatess.  Ad hominem would only have come from a substantive discussion of Duterte's merits--specifically, his alleged ties to over a thousand extralegal killings on his watch in Davao City.  Whereas the presumably more reasonable approach involves telling everyone that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm closed-minded, that I'm trashing an entire nation, that I'm the one acting outside the bounds of reason.  Not ad hominem at all, no siree.

Words mean nothing.  Up is down.  Black is white.  There are five lights, not four.  Who ya gonna believe--me, or your own lyin' eyes?

Behold, ladies and gentlemen:  civic discourse in the era of Trump, on full display.

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Beautifully argued, Anatess.  Ad hominem would only have come from a substantive discussion of Duterte's merits--specifically, his alleged ties to over a thousand extralegal killings on his watch in Davao City.  Whereas the presumably more reasonable approach involves telling everyone that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm closed-minded, that I'm trashing an entire nation, that I'm the one acting outside the bounds of reason.  Not ad hominem at all, no siree.

Words mean nothing.  Up is down.  Black is white.  There are five lights, not four.  Who ya gonna believe--me, or your own lyin' eyes?

Behold, ladies and gentlemen:  civic discourse in the era of Trump, on full display.

 Co-signed. 

Trump is the online comments incarnate candidate. 

Well said JAG, in particular your last sentence 

Edited May 11, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Beautifully argued, Anatess.  Ad hominem would only have come from a substantive discussion of Duterte's merits--specifically, his alleged ties to over a thousand extralegal killings on his watch in Davao City.  Whereas the presumably more reasonable approach involves telling everyone that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm closed-minded, that I'm trashing an entire nation, that I'm the one acting outside the bounds of reason.  Not ad hominem at all, no siree.

Words mean nothing.  Up is down.  Black is white.  There are five lights, not four.  Who ya gonna believe--me, or your own lyin' eyes?

Behold, ladies and gentlemen:  civic discourse in the era of Trump, on full display.

Now that's not fair, JAG.  "Ad" means "to".  "Homo" means "same".  "Nem" is an obvious anagram for "men".  So an ad hominem attack would be to pit one man against another who are the same...

Wait.   No... it means that when men are the same, they go to things together.  So, homo means same and homo means man and nem = men and ... 

No. wait.  It means that...

See what you've done, JAG.  It's all your fault.  Nothing personal though.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I'm not sure that's something to brag about.

Ok - so, here's an honest attempt by me to interact with the substantive stuff actually being talked about here. 

I do believe non-US elections can say interesting things about events in the US.  I'm reminded of an Australian election in the heady post-9/11 days after Australia signed up to be part of the coalition.  The US ally candidate won by a comfortable margin, which made a bunch of anti-war "the US stands alone" claims go silent.  

So, that said, I'm willing to give Anatess' notion serious consideration.  Right or wrong, she's got a proven track record of having opinions based on real things, so she tells me the Philippines had a Trump-like candidate who just won, I don't really have any reason to doubt her.  I have zero reason to discount her notion here, that Duterte's election is an interesting data point in the pre Trump/Hillary showdown. 

 

Anyway, now I've said all that, something else occurs to me.  JAG's immediate jump to response, was to point to dire allegations of Duterte turning a blind eye towards, or possibly being involved in, deadly vigilantism.  

Something to consider: If Duterte's election is a useful data point in thinking about the future election, JAG's response is a useful data point in predicting the sorts of things people will be saying about the potential Trump Administration.  Prediction: Every time a black teen is shot, we'll hear it was Trump's fault.  The news will be full of statistics on unsolved murders.  People will talk about the rise of informal militias and the media will become hyper-focused on deadly events in the US.  Allegations of law enforcement culpability, being egged on by the thuggish Trump administration, will be what we read for news.   And these stories will skyrocket if Pres Trump's efforts to build his wall, or take the fight to ISIS, or whatever, gets blocked.  

 

[Just_A_Guy]

I actually agree that it's an interesting correlation--but not, it appears, a happy one.  I rather think that Duterte's statements, if accurately reported, speak for themselves--and in fairness to Trump, they certainly go beyond any domestic policy Trump himself has openly endorsed.  But if Trump supporters, speaking broadly, are generally approving of Duterte's rhetoric and tactics (which apparently include owning the thousand extralegal deaths attributed to him and pledging to dump a hundred thousand criminals into Manila Bay) and want to label his elevation as the (presumably desirable) "fruit" of their guy's rise in the US--I think that bodes very, very poorly for American politics.

[Guest MormonGator]

I got into a long talk about this with my brother last night via texts. He's a Bernie supporter, for the record. I'm a libertarian-I voted for Rand/Ron, etc. 

We both don't think Trumpers can help themselves. They use personal attacks and name calling because they don't know any other way to defend their views. After all, their candidate uses them, so why can't they? They don't know any better. 

It's really sad.  

[anatess2]

23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ok - so, here's an honest attempt by me to interact with the substantive stuff actually being talked about here. 

I do believe non-US elections can say interesting things about events in the US.  I'm reminded of an Australian election in the heady post-9/11 days after Australia signed up to be part of the coalition.  The US ally candidate won by a comfortable margin, which made a bunch of anti-war "the US stands alone" claims go silent.  

So, that said, I'm willing to give Anatess' notion serious consideration.  Right or wrong, she's got a proven track record of having opinions based on real things, so she tells me the Philippines had a Trump-like candidate who just won, I don't really have any reason to doubt her.  I have zero reason to discount her notion here, that Duterte's election is an interesting data point in the pre Trump/Hillary showdown. 

 

Anyway, now I've said all that, something else occurs to me.  JAG's immediate jump to response, was to point to dire allegations of Duterte turning a blind eye towards, or possibly being involved in, deadly vigilantism.  

Something to consider: If Duterte's election is a useful data point in thinking about the future election, JAG's response is a useful data point in predicting the sorts of things people will be saying about the potential Trump Administration.  Prediction: Every time a black teen is shot, we'll hear it was Trump's fault.  The news will be full of statistics on unsolved murders.  People will talk about the rise of informal militias and the media will become hyper-focused on deadly events in the US.  Allegations of law enforcement culpability, being egged on by the thuggish Trump administration, will be what we read for news.   And these stories will skyrocket if Pres Trump's efforts to build his wall, or take the fight to ISIS, or whatever, gets blocked.  

 

I'll respond to this because it points to the issues and not an attack.  This is where reason can surface. 

Yes.  Duterte's election is a reflection of America's influence worldwide.  American elections is important to Filipinos and most other nations worldwide because your President has the power to make it very difficult for our country especially in 2 areas - Economy, Foreign Relations.  Americans are not as concerned about who gets elected President of the Philippines unless such election signifies a shift in the Filipino-American alliance.  None of the candidates for Filipino President from the time of the Commonwealth to today - and that includes Marcos - has ever expressed a desire to change whose side they are on, therefore, Americans have no cause to pay attention besides political curiosity.

Philippine issues similar to American ones:

Oligarchy
The Philippine elections from the day of its independence has always been plagued by oligarch powers.  It is a by-product of the Spanish grip on the country that suppressed the common folk and gave rise to Filipino mestizos who found ways to endear themselves to the noblemen by trodding on their fellowmen (crab mentality).  I can give you a whole history of this but it would be too long to recount.  Suffice it to say that the Filipinos have been under the boot of oligarchs for the longest time as they control the media.  The only people that can penetrate that oligarchy are celebrities like Manny Pacquiao who get elected because of his celebrity status and not his governing skills.  We have lots of these guys in power - we even elected an action star who knew nothing of governance for President.  So it's like, when your "hollywood star" dims, you become a congressman only to become part of the oligarchy siphoning money out of the country into their own coffers.

This relates to America where you have the "establishment" and their "crony capitalists".

North vs South
We have a cultural divide in the Philippines in the same vein to the American North versus South cultures.  Interestingly, ours is also a North versus South division where the North treats the South as hicks and ignoramuses.  The North are the Tagalogs, the South are the Bisayas... labeled according to the lingua franca spoken by each group.  As the national language (which the North loves to call Tagalog when in fact it is called Pilipino) is based on Tagalog grammar even as it is formed by taking the most common word in the 49 distinct Filipino dialects to form its vocabulary, it effectively replaced the Tagalog dialect making it almost extinct except for the work of linguists trying to preserve the dialect.  So that, the North are born speaking Pilipino whereas the Bisaya have to learn it as a 2nd language.  A lot of Bisaya then end up speaking Pilipino with the Bisaya accent cementing the North's ridicule of their ignorance.  This becomes a challenge for any Bisaya running for National office who don't spend time working on their speech patterns through a cadre of campaign handlers as people - including the Bisaya - got conditioned to think that they have to speak a certain way to be "Presidential".

Radical Islamic Terrorism
In the US, this is foreign policy.  In the Philippines, this is part of the South... yeah, they're Bisaya.  All the more reason for the North to be wary of the South.
 

The Evangelical Vote (well, in our case, the Catholic vote)
The Catholics comprise upwards to 80% of the population.  Most laws in the Philippines come from Canon Law.  Some are good - divorce is illegal.  Some are not good - artificial birth control is still not a public health option even as the law narrowly passed congress.  Anybody running for office have to "win the Catholic vote" in the same manner that a Republican in America needs to "win the Evangelical vote".

Poverty
The Philippines have systemic poverty - a by-product of oligarchy, causing good God-fearing people to sell their children to pornography film makers just so the kid can eat.  Poverty is the tool the oligarchs use to get them in power by promising free stuff... It's different in the Philippines as they just staple money on a sample ballot that the voter copies in the voting booth... in the US, they give away free college.

 

In comes Rodgrigo Duterte.  A common man who became Mayor because of the strength of his character.  He doesn't come from a line of politicians (like many are, including my family).  Not only is he Bisaya, he is your "say it like it is" politician who defies labels.  He is a devout Catholic but then he told his parish priest he has to set aside Canon Law to become Mayor as there are things in Canon Law that is not compatible with Philippine Governance.  He blasts profanity in public when he gets upset - especially when it comes to crime.  He strongly believes that poverty and crime go hand in hand, solve one and you solve the other.  When his son got linked to a carnapping syndicate by the media he told them in a televised interview that if you prove without a doubt that his son is involved in that crime, kill him.

Now... because of Canon Law, Capital Punishment is a very controversial law in the Philippines - this is as divisive as Pro-Life/Pro-Choice argument in the USA.  Capital Punishment was suspended when Marcos left office.  It got re-instituted by Ramos (military President) only to be suspended again in 2006.  Duterte has expressed how bad this is to the battle against crime - especially the fight against illegal drugs.  He is solidly in the pro-CP camp.  (I am anti-CP, just fyi).  In Duterte's view, you have poor people who will willingly commit the most heinous of crimes for money.  What's the option - die of poverty or commit a heinous crime to make a lot of money.  If you get caught you get to stay in jail with a roof over your head, your own bed, your own toilet plus 3 meals a day provided for by the Catholic Church... for the rest of your life.  And then you have the relatively well-off people committing heinous crimes by recruiting all these poor people who are just willing to do anything to eat.  They are even worse in the eyes of Duterte.  They usually don't end up in jail, or if they do they get off easily because they have money to buy themselves out of jail.  So he figured he can't solve the judicial system (national), but he can make it known that if you're a proven heinous criminal and you end up dead, the DA will put the investigation of your death to the bottom of the list.  If you go vigilante and kill someone who is not a proven heinous criminal, you get to be the criminal and if you die, your death investigation will go to the bottom of the list.  So, the Catholic Church and the anti-CP crowd vocally decried this method as against Human Rights.  Duterte responded that when you start putting America on the anti-Human Rights list for their practice of Capital Punishment, then I will do something about it.

Now, of course, this is not the only thing that Duterte did in Davao - Davao is the only city in the entire Philippines that has a 911 emergency service.  Also, Davao has a public drug rehabilitation center open 24/7 providing free short and long term rehab and treatment.  Davao provides P2,000/month stipend for ex-drug addicts to attend trade school.  And his administration is nationally renowned for a corruption-free model of excellence.  Even the cops don't do shake-downs (very common everywhere in the Philippines) because they feel obligated not to do so as Duterte and his daughter are known to give gifts of groceries when a law-enforcement officer finds himself in dire straits.  Davao is an economic powerhouse in competition with Cebu City and Makati.  Crime is at a very low rate compared to the rest of the country.  This is just some of the stuff he accomplished.

Another big thing that Duterte did which raised a lot of controversy is his work with Muslims.  He struck a neutral position and initiated peace negotiations.  This was so effective that he now has 2 Muslim representatives in cabinet - but that's not even the most eyebrow-raising thing... Duterte now has a bunch of his grandkids being Muslim as his children intermarried.  That would have been death-blow to any Catholic's political ambitions, yet he gets re-elected Mayor over and over.

So... this election - the problem facing the country is the systemic corruption that has just gotten so bad as to be unsustainable.  Out of the past 5 Presidents, only 1 - Ramos - had an administration that did not have graft and corruption involvement.  It has gotten so bad that if you go to NAIA, airport personnel would sneak a bullet into your luggage so that it will come up on the scanner and they can take you to the security office and fine you lots of money or you go to jail.  Nobody can solve the problem because this crime syndicate goes all the way to the top!  So, the people decided, our #1 priority is to clean house and solve crime including graft and corruption.  The #2 priority - put the oligarchy and their bought media out of power.  The #3 priority - bring the Philippines back to economic prosperity.  And for all 3 of those - Duterte fits the bill.  Even as he has no problem saying that the arrival of the Pope causes too much disruption to the highway system (something that is considered blasphemy by a lot of Catholics) and that when he becomes President, criminals will kill themselves... all spoken in his very thick Bisaya accent.

This became possible because of the rise of Social Media and Trump.  The Bisaya was able to point to Trump's non-politically-polished style to realize that it is possible to become President without having to become Tagalog or even give the "bridge talk".  And it is possible not to know your bible and still be able to give a voice to the "evangelicals".  And it is not always necessary to pick the perfect candidate to avoid picking the "lesser of evils".  A flawed candidate doesn't mean he is evil... even as he left his wife and lives with a "common-law" one.  Prioritization of Problems that need Solutions and matching those with candidates' resumes and putting the rest aside is a valid way to choose a President.  Because... all the others may have perfect families and perfect speech patterns, but they show no capacity to solve problems and most of them either steal ballot boxes or buys the votes or install their relatives into public office to help them fleece money out of government.

Now, I can write a post just as long about all of the policy positions that I disagree with Duterte on.  Capital Punishment is just one of them... Economic federalism is another big one... but even with those, I worked to get him in office.

Edited May 12, 2016 by anatess2