Becoming a Zion People

[Guest]

The first step to becoming Zion is to clearly define Zion.  Let’s take a look at the usage of the word “ZION” in scriptures.

In the Old Testament it had many meanings:

1.       The land where the covenant people (the Jews) were to build a nation – or the nation itself.  This often became synonymous with Jerusalem or the nation of Israel (anciently).
2.       The People of the Lord.  Phrases like “daughter of Zion” abound in scriptures.
3.       The mountain near Jerusalem where a Jebusite fortress once stood which David conquered.  Later, the Jewish city built upon it became known as the City of David.  I believe this was part of why the wise men didn’t know Christ was to be born in Bethlehem.  They knew he was to be in the City of David which is best described as a borough of Jerusalem.  But Bethlehem (which was more of a suburb of Jerusalem) was also known as the City of David.  I’d appreciate anyone else shedding light on this.
4.       The temple.  Most specifically, it referred to Solomon’s temple.  But there are indications that it would be appropriate to think that “Mt. Zion” could refer to temples in general.  Indeterminate since the Jews seemed to only have one temple at a time.  Phrases like the “mountain of the Lord’s house” is a reference to Solomon’s temple built on a mount as well as Moses being on various mountains to talk to the Lord.
5.       The afterlife.  There are indications in Jewish culture that the term was used both literally and metaphorically to describe “heaven”.

   Through the Book of Moses we have a few more meanings

6. The City of Enoch.  This is the primary usage in Moses. 
7. The first true definitions comes in Ch7:18-19. 
   • One heart and one mind and dwelt in righteousness and no poor among them. 
   • City of holiness. 
8. The New Jerusalem (10^th AoF). 
9. An unusual usage in v. 64 that seems to be a conglomeration of the three above.  The City of Enoch will merge with the New Jerusalem and all people will be a holy city.

The word is completely absent from the New Testament.

In the Book of Mormon it is used in a sense that I believe we tend to think of it in common usage today.

1. The gospel.
2. The Church as an organized realization of the gospel, its principles, ordinances, teachings, etc.
3. The church – the membership thereof, specifically the people of the Church.
4.  And it is also used in the BoM in the other senses that have been noted already.

The D&C adds

1.  “The Pure in Heart” – as a definition.
2. The Society of the United Order.
3.  A political system or organization – a kingdom.  i.e. – Church and Kingdom of God.
4. Jackson County, Missouri
5. The House of Israel
6. Forgive me, but there are a LOT of instances of the word “Zion” in the D&C.  I did not read them all.  Most of them seemed the same definitions as above.  If I missed any more, please feel free to add them

Study Helps: 

The Bible Dictionary Entry  adds that, in a wider sense, Zion can be considered North and South America based on a statement (HC 6:318–19)

The Guide to the Scriptures also indicates that wherever the pure in heart are – that location can be considered Zion.

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Second step: Which definitions are important in the sense that we wish to make changes to our lives to become a Zion people?  For the most part geography-based definitions apart from the building of the City of Zion itself are not really applicable except for background information.

Other meanings that ask something of us today include

1. The pure in heart.  This, as "the" definition, is probably the most important.  We each individually, as families, as a church body, and a society as a whole need to be pure in heart if all the other ideas of Zion are going to work.
2. The Church and membership therein. The Church needs to grow.  The missions of the Church must be fulfilled.  We need to be diligent in our home teaching, which really is the primary tool the Church uses to perfect the Saints.  We need to do more missionary work.  We need to make temple work a priority.  We need to serve others more.
3. The United Order isn't as dead as we might think.  Many people rich and poor and all levels in between live the law of consecration in their hearts even if a formal system is not really in place.  A man I know had a small business cleaning office buildings.  While it paid the bills, he was by no means wealthy.  The family had enough, but most realized that they could use all the help they could get.  One Sunday between Sunday school and PH/RS meetings, someone had spilled toner on the library floor.  We did what he could, but he declared well I guess I'll have to bring my stuff here sometime this week and take care of it.  I asked if he was the FM group for the building.  He said,"No, but I made certain covenants in the temple.  And I have the means to take care of this better than anyone else in the ward.  So..."
4. The Temple.  The take-away here, for me, is that we need to be reverent, clean, spiritually focused, and not world focused.
5. Our homes.  Where else can a small group of the pure in heart gather to focus more on how we can love and serve God and our fellow man?
6. The Celestial Kingdom.  While we can't bring the Celestial Kingdom here, what we can do is live celestial principles as much as possible to prepare for final judgment and to actually live there one day.
7. The City of Zion.  I've also heard that it will be so big that it will actually be a nation, not just a city.  One day it will be a reality.  If it happens in our lifetimes, we need to do what we can to play our part.  Part of me believes that when the Saints are already playing their part to the level the Lord is well pleased, the City will be built.  While I believe that the Church is doing well, there is always room for improvement.  We're not perfect yet.  And while we're all individually, and as a people improving, we're not at the level the Lord needs for the City to be built.  And that is really the intent of the thread.  How can we look at the other definitions above in order to bring about this definition?  That I believe was the underlying question.

So, where do you see examples of us as a people succeeding?  And where do you see examples of us failing?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[anatess2]

We're failing in everything.  Unless you limit who you mean by "as a people".

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We're failing in everything.  Unless you limit who you mean by "as a people".

I agree and disagree.  And I'd ask you to be more specific about some particular things you've personally seen in people or groups.

I think we're failing at everything and we're succeeding in everything.  I see SO many good people who are so pure in heart.  I see SO many willing to live by all their temple covenants.  I see the Church as an organized mass doing so much to fulfill the missions of the Church and to serve all mankind.  And the Latter-day Saints are answering the call of their leaders to serve those in need, to feed the poor, to clothe the naked, and to seek out the righteous wherever they may be.

I also see those who do NOT do any of that.  But how are we to judge?

I'd like to make an addition to the "membership in the Church" section.  I do see a lot of apostasy going on.  Statistically, it is apparently not much different than it always has been.  But I'm just becoming more aware of it.  Do we say "we're" failing because 1/3 of "us" are falling away?  Do we judge "us" because of those who even remain in the Church, but partially rebel against the words of the prophets?  Do we judge "us" by the Sandy, UT residents that Elder Bednar mentioned?

I see the good in many people in the Church.  And I'm a cynic.  I do feel that if calamity were to hit and the prophet gave marching orders to sacrifice everything so we can help our fellow man, a great majority of the Saints would answer the call.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Indeterminate since the Jews seemed to only have one temple at a time. 

Totally aside, but there were at least two others, one on Elephantine Island (c. 600 bc) and another I've only heard of once before, and promptly forgot the details about.

Lehi

Edited June 30, 2016 by LeSellers

[anatess2]

28 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I agree and disagree.  And I'd ask you to be more specific about some particular things you've personally seen in people or groups.

I think we're failing at everything and we're succeeding in everything.  I see SO many good people who are so pure in heart.  I see SO many willing to live by all their temple covenants.  I see the Church as an organized mass doing so much to fulfill the missions of the Church and to serve all mankind.  And the Latter-day Saints are answering the call of their leaders to serve those in need, to feed the poor, to clothe the naked, and to seek out the righteous wherever they may be.

I also see those who do NOT do any of that.  But how are we to judge?

I'd like to make an addition to the "membership in the Church" section.  I do see a lot of apostasy going on.  Statistically, it is apparently not much different than it always has been.  But I'm just becoming more aware of it.  Do we say "we're" failing because 1/3 of "us" are falling away?  Do we judge "us" because of those who even remain in the Church, but partially rebel against the words of the prophets?  Do we judge "us" by the Sandy, UT residents that Elder Bednar mentioned?

I see the good in many people in the Church.  And I'm a cynic.  I do feel that if calamity were to hit and the prophet gave marching orders to sacrifice everything so we can help our fellow man, a great majority of the Saints would answer the call.

That's what I mean... "as a people" to me means everyone under Covenant.  If you go by specifics - this person and that person as opposed to as a people - then there are tons of examples of persons moving closer to Zion ideals and tons of examples of persons moving farther from Zion ideals.  So if you limit your "as a people" to Faithful Church Members.. then yes, we are moving closer to Zion with all the works of the faithful in these latter days.

Edited June 30, 2016 by anatess2

[Edspringer]

21 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Second step: Which definitions are important in the sense that we wish to make changes to our lives to become a Zion people?  For the most part geography-based definitions apart from the building of the City of Zion itself are not really applicable except for background information.

Other meanings that ask something of us today include

1. The pure in heart.  This, as "the" definition, is probably the most important.  We each individually, as families, as a church body, and a society as a whole need to be pure in heart if all the other ideas of Zion are going to work.
2. The Church and membership therein. The Church needs to grow.  The missions of the Church must be fulfilled.  We need to be diligent in our home teaching, which really is the primary tool the Church uses to perfect the Saints.  We need to do more missionary work.  We need to make temple work a priority.  We need to serve others more.
3. The United Order isn't as dead as we might think.  Many people rich and poor and all levels in between live the law of consecration in their hearts even if a formal system is not really in place.  A man I know had a small business cleaning office buildings.  While it paid the bills, he was by no means wealthy.  The family had enough, but most realized that they could use all the help they could get.  One Sunday between Sunday school and PH/RS meetings, someone had spilled toner on the library floor.  We did what he could, but he declared well I guess I'll have to bring my stuff here sometime this week and take care of it.  I asked if he was the FM group for the building.  He said,"No, but I made certain covenants in the temple.  And I have the means to take care of this better than anyone else in the ward.  So..."
4. The Temple.  The take-away here, for me, is that we need to be reverent, clean, spiritually focused, and not world focused.
5. Our homes.  Where else can a small group of the pure in heart gather to focus more on how we can love and serve God and our fellow man?
6. The Celestial Kingdom.  While we can't bring the Celestial Kingdom here, what we can do is live celestial principles as much as possible to prepare for final judgment and to actually live there one day.
7. The City of Zion.  I've also heard that it will be so big that it will actually be a nation, not just a city.  One day it will be a reality.  If it happens in our lifetimes, we need to do what we can to play our part.  Part of me believes that when the Saints are already playing their part to the level the Lord is well pleased, the City will be built.  While I believe that the Church is doing well, there is always room for improvement.  We're not perfect yet.  And while we're all individually, and as a people improving, we're not at the level the Lord needs for the City to be built.  And that is really the intent of the thread.  How can we look at the other definitions above in order to bring about this definition?  That I believe was the underlying question.

So, where do you see examples of us as a people succeeding?  And where do you see examples of us failing?

I really enjoyed this tread of yours, thank you.

Becoming Zion is the ultimate goal of this life as the people of God. As we have made sacred covenants, we used our agency to do whatever our Lord required from us. He said: “And after that day, I, the Lord, will not hold any guilty that shall go with an open heart up to the land of Zion; for I, the Lord, require the hearts of the children of men”.

 I think we are failing in this aspect: we haven’t offered our hearts to the Lord. We need to be fully obedient to His laws and commandments and live by every word of His. Of course, it’s a daily exercise and we won’t be perfect in this life.

But offering up our hearts to the Lord, to do His will in everything, seems to be the greatest challenge of all.

I think we should care more about those in need. For example, in our ward there’s a man seriously ill. He hasn’t been visited by the bishop, the elder’s quorum president or his home teachers yet. I myself haven’t been there yet. I need to repent and stop waiting for others to do their job while I am also my brother’s keeper.

Caring about others is a crucial part of becoming Zion.

I see some goodness growing among us, though.

So, being pure of hearts and united are pending achievements.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

 I think we are failing in this aspect: we haven’t offered our hearts to the Lord. We need to be fully obedient to His laws and commandments and live by every word of His. Of course, it’s a daily exercise and we won’t be perfect in this life.

So, being pure of hearts and united are pending achievements.

Exactly, Ed.  Thank you.

I certainly am not one to say "all is well in Zion" or that we don't need to improve.  If that were true, we'd be translated.  But consider the words of the hymn Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing.   It is a continual prayer of pleading saying,"I'm a sinner, please help me.  I believe, and I'm willing.  But I'm weak."

Doesn't this describe all of us?  It's the fact that we 1) Know/believe  2) Recognize that we're sinners 3) Recognize we're weak 4) Call upon the strength of the Lord 5) Be willing to try and keep on trying.  Isn't that what offering our hearts to the Lord is?  Does it really mean we must be perfect in all things TODAY?

If we're really trying to say that we must all be perfect to achieve Zion, while I believe that may be true, it is not something to feel guilty of.  We're a work in progress.  Most of us always will be in this life.  I know I sure am -- and probably for a fair bit in the next.

So what is truly the concern that we're not a Zion people RIGHT NOW?  Is it not good enough that we keep trying, failing, and repenting?  I say that we're doing pretty well because I see people, flawed as they are, continually repenting and trying to be better.  I hope I can include myself in that group.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Guest

[Edspringer]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Exactly, Ed.  Thank you.

I certainly am not one to say "all is well in Zion" or that we don't need to improve.  If that were true, we'd be translated.  But consider the words of the hymn Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing.   It is a continual prayer of pleading saying,"I'm a sinner, please help me.  I believe, and I'm willing.  But I'm weak."

Doesn't this describe all of us?  It's the fact that we 1) Know/believe  2) Recognize that we're sinners 3) Recognize we're weak 4) Call upon the strength of the Lord 5) Be willing to try and keep on trying.  Isn't that what offering our hearts to the Lord is?  Does it really mean we must be perfect in all things TODAY?

If we're really trying to say that we must all be perfect to achieve Zion, while I believe that may be true, it is not something to feel guilty of.  We're a work in progress.  Most of us always will be in this life.  I know I sure am -- and probably for a fair bit in the next.

So what is truly the concern that we're not a Zion people RIGHT NOW?  Is it not good enough that we keep trying, failing, and repenting?  I say that we're doing pretty well because I see people, flawed as they are, continually repenting and trying to be better.  I hope I can include myself in that group.

Excellent, Carb

I remember something that Morpheus, from the movie "Matrix" said:"There's a difference in knowing the way and walking the way".

When you asked us about becoming Zion (and I just realized that the name of the city in the movie Matrix is actually Zion LOL) I came to realize that most of us know what to do, but dont actually do it. Giving our hearts to the Lord means santifcation (Helaman 3:35).  To be pure of heart is to become Zion. I believe we know the way. But do we walk the way?

thanx for your inspiring words. We all need to rely on the power of the Atonement to carry on!

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

I remember something that Morpheus, from the movie "Matrix" said:"There's a difference in knowing the way and walking the way".

Interesting that you bring that up.  You realize it is the opposite application in the movie, right?

Morpheus was explaining to Neo that the Oracle told him a lie so that he would walk the correct path.  The truth would have messed with his mind in a way that would cause him to walk the wrong path.  

While I know that sometimes the Lord withholds knowledge from us to prevent us from walking the wrong path, but He would never lie to us.

[Edspringer]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 

While I know that sometimes the Lord withholds knowledge from us to prevent us from walking the wrong path, but He would never lie to us.

Corretc

Thanx for bringing new light on my comments

[estradling75]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Morpheus was explaining to Neo that the Oracle told him a lie so that he would walk the correct path.  The truth would have messed with his mind in a way that would cause him to walk the wrong path.  

 

Begin Thread jack....

Not quite true... Here is how it went down

The Oracle: Okay. Now I'm supposed to say, `Umm, that's interesting, but...,' then you say...
Neo: But what?
The Oracle: But you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not The One.

The Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
The Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go.

 

 

The Oracle never lied...  Neo lied to himself and the Oracle put him on the path to learn

 

...end thread jack

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Begin Thread jack....

Not quite true... Here is how it went down

... (earlier conversation)

The Oracle never lied...  Neo lied to himself and the Oracle put him on the path to learn

...end thread jack

...Begin again.

First off, if that wasn't a lie, it was a deception or it was misleading.  It was at least her intent to give him that impression.  This is evidenced by the supplementary conversation which started this threadjack

Quote

Morpheus : Do you belive it now, Trinity?

Neo : Morpheus...The Oracle, she told me, I'm...

Morpheus : She told you exactly what you needed to hear..that's all. Neo, sooner or later, you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking it.

If she didn't at least purposefully give him the impression that he was not the one, then what would have been the difference between knowing and walking?  They were different.

Segue threadjack to the OP:

So, if we apply this overall philosophy to making our hearts pure ---- 

I believe we could be told with an iron fist,"You must use every ounce of energy of every moment of every day strictly keeping focused on all things related to the Lord or all is lost."  While that could be true, I believe that would cause too many to lose all hope.  I'm pretty sure it would me.  And I'm pretty sure that some may get that message being raised in the Church.  And at some point they just can't take their own failings and shortcomings anymore and check out of the Church because they know they'll never be able to live up to that standard.

I have a friend that essentially did just that.  He doesn't realize it.  But some things he's let slip gave me some insight into what he did and why.  A major reason he left was that he seemed to be under the impression that he would never live up to that standard that he perceived was expected of him.  

Sometimes, people need to simply be told,"Peace.  Be still."

Edited July 1, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Split thread item:  Full disclosure, this thread was a direct result of the income disparity thread.  

The one mention in all the definitions with regard to this was that in Zion, there were no poor among them.  Does this really refer to income disparity?  I just don't feel like it does for three reasons.

1. How on earth do you define poor?  Monetary value?  How?  What is it?  There are many considered poor in the US who are quite wealthy by worldwide standards.
2. All the scriptures talking about the Zion society don't say wealth was evil.  The evil was the wealthy thinking they were better than the poor -- especially because they had the money and the clothes and jewels and the fancy chariots decked out with Mag spokes and genuine Jacobite leather  with full surround sound.  It was evil for the wealthy to withhold their wealth from the needy.  It was not the wealth itself.
3. Nowhere does it say that the Zion society had no wealthy among them.

I'd dare say that in a truly Zion society, all would be wealthy, but not equally so.  All would have enough for their needs and probably have a lot of comforts/luxuries.  I don't see anything in scriptures that says we must live a completely ascetic lifestyle.  So who says this luxury is ok and that one is too much?  What if for some, a certain luxury is simply an indulgence, but for another it's a necessity to perform his job?  Often it is not necessary, but it certainly makes the job more efficient and effective.

I believe in a Zion society the poor don't exist because we all have a cultural knowledge of how to produce so much that we all have what we need -- and that we all recognize on our own that we can certainly be happy with much less.  And income disparity, present or not, has nothing to do with qualifying for Zion or not.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

45 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

...Begin again.

First off, if that wasn't a lie, it was a deception or it was misleading.  It was at least her intent to give him that impression.  This is evidenced by the supplementary conversation which started this threadjack

If she didn't at least purposefully give him the impression that he was not the one, then what would have been the difference between knowing and walking?  They were different.

 

 

Except that is not what she did.

Oracle: It means know thy self. I wanna tell you a little secret, being the one is just like being in love. No one needs to tell you you are in love, you just know it, through and through.

By definition the Oracle gives about the one...  Neo was not the one (at that time)... and even if she told him he would not be it... because he would not "know it through and through"   Thus has she told Neo he was the one right then and their she would have been lying... The Best and most honest response was the one she gave   "Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something."

Then she sets in motion the events to get him to stop waiting.  She gave him all the clues and hints he would need and he ignored them in favor of only seeing what he wanted see. 

The difference was he had to accept for himself what he was... and all the people in this world could tell him he was  the one and it would not matter until he accepted it. Thus we can merge the two sayings "There is a difference being knowing the path... and knowing the path through and through"

[Traveler]

As I child I thought our family was poor.  We grew most of our food.  We had a large garden and we home canned a lot of fruits and vegetables.  We also raised chickens and rabbits for meat and eggs.  In the fall we hunted mostly deer and as a family would take about 4 to 6 deer each year because we also got bow permits.  We butchered and tanned hides.  All our milk was mixed with powdered milk.  It was just the way we lived.  Most of our cloths were homemade and as children we started working at age 8 to purchase personal items – Dad never gave any of us kids a dime for anything – but we could work for him.  We discovered we could make more working for anyone else.   I remember meatloaf sandwiches with waffles instead of bread.  No one lived like we did.  I was college age when I discovered that my father owned a large chunk of Provo city (both residential and business)

Wealth and poverty, is largely upbringing – a matter of discipline or lack of it.  It is my personal feeling that the requirement or need to be taken care of is the essence of poverty.  Thus children, by definition, are poor.  And we are raising a generation of poor.  Thinking someone should provide health insurance be it government or employer is a mindset of poverty.   Taking more than you give is the very worst kind of poverty.

As I was growing up – there hung in our house the “Rules of the United Order”.  Perhaps when I get back home for a season I will post the rules.  But one that my father often referred to said something like, “I will not appropriate for my use anything that does not belong to me.”  My great-grandfather was the executive secretary (CEO) on one of Utah’s most successful United Orders.  It was ingrained into our family.  If someone provided services to our family they were remitted an honest wage for their efforts.  If they insisted that they not be paid but that their labors be considered a service then the wage was donated to either the fast offering fund or welfare.  When our family went to the welfare farm – which we did at least once every week in the summer, dad insisted that we would be the first there and the last to leave.  I hated the welfare farm because I was eaten alive by mosquitos.

I believe that if the families of the Church would raise their children as I was raised – we would be either or most nearly be, a Zion people.

 

The Traveler

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Split thread item:  Full disclosure, this thread was a direct result of the income disparity thread.  

The one mention in all the definitions with regard to this was that in Zion, there were no poor among them.  Does this really refer to income disparity?  I just don't feel like it does for three reasons.

1. How on earth do you define poor?  Monetary value?  How?  What is it?  There are many considered poor in the US who are quite wealthy by worldwide standards.
2. All the scriptures talking about the Zion society don't say wealth was evil.  The evil was the wealthy thinking they were better than the poor -- especially because they had the money and the clothes and jewels and the fancy chariots decked out with Mag spokes and genuine Jacobite leather  with full surround sound.  It was evil for the wealthy to withhold their wealth from the needy.  It was not the wealth itself.
3. Nowhere does it say that the Zion society had no wealthy among them.

I'd dare say that in a truly Zion society, all would be wealthy, but not equally so.  All would have enough for their needs and probably have a lot of comforts/luxuries.  I don't see anything in scriptures that says we must live a completely ascetic lifestyle.  So who says this luxury is ok and that one is too much?  What if for some, a certain luxury is simply an indulgence, but for another it's a necessity to perform his job?  Often it is not necessary, but it certainly makes the job more efficient and effective.

I believe in a Zion society the poor don't exist because we all have a cultural knowledge of how to produce so much that we all have what we need -- and that we all recognize on our own that we can certainly be happy with much less.  And income disparity, present or not, has nothing to do with qualifying for Zion or not.

I think in Zion "there are no poor among them" because, yes, everyone has all they need. Because everyone is looking out for their neighbor. It never says they are exactly equal in wealth, but I personally believe that no one will care about who is more wealthy, because their hearts will not be set on riches.

People in the United Order, as I understand it, give all their surplus to the bishop, and they get back whatever they need for their stewardship - undoubtedly, some will need more than others. But it won't matter, because everyone will have what they need. Zion, after it gets really going, is supposed to be a very prosperous economy - that's what they said in seminary at least, I remember.

However, there is plenty in the scriptures warning against being wealthy.

Not that being rich is the same as being wicked. Having money is not evil in itself, but the problem comes when you set your heart on it, and don't use it to build up the kingdom of God. To properly address the topic of wealth in LDS doctrine, you would want to write a carefully researched long talk about it. Probably others have already done this.

But let me look around for some relevant scriptures - give me a minute here, I'll be back...

Edited July 1, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

OK, here's the list of scriptures for "riches"
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/riches?lang=eng

The Lord counsels the Saints not to seek for worldly riches except to do good. The Saints must not put seeking worldly riches before seeking the kingdom of God, which holds the riches of eternity (Jacob 2:18–19).
from https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/riches?lang=eng&letter=r

And a relevant talk:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/12/what-the-scriptures-say-about-pursuit-of-wealth?lang=eng

The following scripture says it pretty strongly - this is Jesus speaking. Notice that his disciples are astonished at this, and that Jesus says it basically takes a special miracle from God for a rich person to get into heaven:

Quote

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Matt. 19

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

Another problem with wealth is when you spend too much of your time working for it, instead of working on things that really matter in the eternal view.

There's D&C scripture that says something to the effect that as disciples we shall not seek for riches. It's not the "Seek not for riches but for wisdom" in D&C 11 but another one. I can't find it right now.

The topic of money is riches is very important, and the scriptures talk a lot about it. That's why I'm harping on it.

[tesuji]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

duplicate

Edited July 1, 2016 by tesuji

[Guest]

On 7/1/2016 at 3:51 PM, tesuji said:

I think in Zion "there are no poor among them" because, yes, everyone has all they need. Because everyone is looking out for their neighbor. It never says they are exactly equal in wealth, but I personally believe that no one will care about who is more wealthy, because their hearts will not be set on riches.

Agreed.  I believe I've said that in different words.

People in the United Order, as I understand it, give all their surplus to the bishop, and they get back whatever they need for their stewardship - undoubtedly, some will need more than others. But it won't matter, because everyone will have what they need. Zion, after it gets really going, is supposed to be a very prosperous economy - that's what they said in seminary at least, I remember.

How about a society of people who are so generous that we'll independently seek out those in need of something and give directly of our surplus to them.  In a truly Zion society, why would there be a need for centralized distribution?  Consider how many tragedies have occurred in the past couple of years alone.  How many of them had a "fund" set up where thousands to millions of people donated?  I see things like this and think that we're pretty close to a Zion society.  But the fact that we're mixed with a bunch of people who are not on the program, is that (those that don't participate) all you see?  I see much more of the good in this regard.  I see much more bad in social rather than economic issues.

However, there is plenty in the scriptures warning against being wealthy.

I noticed your other post with the link.  I don't have time to read it right now.  But I'll get to it.

Not that being rich is the same as being wicked. Having money is not evil in itself, but the problem comes when you set your heart on it, and don't use it to build up the kingdom of God. To properly address the topic of wealth in LDS doctrine, you would want to write a carefully researched long talk about it. Probably others have already done this.

I think we're on the same page on this issue here.  The difference is that when I see a wealthy person, I think "success".  When you see a wealthy person, you think "withholding wealth" -- at least that's what I'm lead to believe from your posts.  Isn't that judging?  If not, tell me, what do you think when you see a wealthy person?

True, some wealthy DO withhold and are certainly self-centered <<cough>> <<Trump>>.  But I've personally known MANY wealthy people who give quite freely to those in need, both at a personal level and at an institutional level.  I think it's highly judgmental to believe "most" wealthy are selfish or materialistic.

When you posted the SA article about income disparity, did you even think for one moment that the income disparity might actually mean something good?  I did.  But instead, you titled the OP "it's worse than you think".

 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Guest

[Traveler]

I thought to try again to add a thought from the example of my father.  He was what many would call wealthy and at the same time many may think of him as a miser or hoarder – because he did not spend his money – what he did was invest it and put it to work.  He lived in a modest home on 7^th North - West of 9^th east in Provo.  A house that still stands and you could see for yourself if you wish and think that a millionaire lived in this house and raised a family in the 50’s - 70’s.  I and two brothers shared a twin bed – sleeping perpendicular with our feet hanging off.  My father drove a beater of a car (single car family) and all the time he could have paid cash for a new car or even a new more spacious house.

Seldom did my father give anyone money.  He would buy food or other objects of need for those in need – but mostly he took his boys and we went and did things for people.  We fixed a lot of stuff – even cars, plumbing, electrical or whatever.  Often the task required skills we boys did not have so he would heir a professional to tutor us.  Many times those he helped wanted to pay him back – he seldom took cash but would allow them to do service – but when such service was provided he required his boys to be involved and work alongside with them.  Even on vacations – we worked.  We seldom stayed in a hotel and when we were camping we were required to do at least an hour a day clearing trails or other wilderness maintenance.

I could go on about my father but hopefully you are getting the point.  My father believed in work – hard dirty physical work that made a person sweat and stink. Work most would pay others to do – work many think is demeaning.  He believed that in heaven if a toilet needed to be cleaned – Jesus would do it – without being asked.  That is how I was raised.

Poverty and riches is what is in a person’s heart not what is in their wallet.  Wealth is the recognition of what we have and what we do with it – be it for ourselves or others.  If for ourselves we are poor – if for others we are wealthy.

When the scriptures say that there was no poor among them – I do not think it means what many think – I believe it means more something along the line of what I was raised and taught – by the greatest man (and woman – his wife and my mother) I have ever known.  A man and woman I hold as high an example as any man or woman – prophet, politician or celebrity – excepting Christ.  A man that taught me to never look upon, act or think of anyone as poor.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I thought to try again to add a thought from the example of my father.  He was what many would call wealthy and at the same time many may think of him as a miser or hoarder – because he did not spend his money – what he did was invest it and put it to work.  He lived in a modest home on 7^th North - West of 9^th east in Provo.  A house that still stands and you could see for yourself if you wish and think that a millionaire lived in this house and raised a family in the 50’s - 70’s.  I and two brothers shared a twin bed – sleeping perpendicular with our feet hanging off.  My father drove a beater of a car (single car family) and all the time he could have paid cash for a new car or even a new more spacious house.

Seldom did my father give anyone money.  He would buy food or other objects of need for those in need – but mostly he took his boys and we went and did things for people.  We fixed a lot of stuff – even cars, plumbing, electrical or whatever.  Often the task required skills we boys did not have so he would heir a professional to tutor us.  Many times those he helped wanted to pay him back – he seldom took cash but would allow them to do service – but when such service was provided he required his boys to be involved and work alongside with them.  Even on vacations – we worked.  We seldom stayed in a hotel and when we were camping we were required to do at least an hour a day clearing trails or other wilderness maintenance.

I could go on about my father but hopefully you are getting the point.  My father believed in work – hard dirty physical work that made a person sweat and stink. Work most would pay others to do – work many think is demeaning.  He believed that in heaven if a toilet needed to be cleaned – Jesus would do it – without being asked.  That is how I was raised.

Poverty and riches is what is in a person’s heart not what is in their wallet.  Wealth is the recognition of what we have and what we do with it – be it for ourselves or others.  If for ourselves we are poor – if for others we are wealthy.

When the scriptures say that there was no poor among them – I do not think it means what many think – I believe it means more something along the line of what I was raised and taught – by the greatest man (and woman – his wife and my mother) I have ever known.  A man and woman I hold as high an example as any man or woman – prophet, politician or celebrity – excepting Christ.  A man that taught me to never look upon, act or think of anyone as poor.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I thought to try again to add a thought from the example of my father...

Thank you for making my point.