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[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 

You did...  Or atleast that is how I understood this

 

Each half flipflops to the other side

 

 

Either we have different understandings of what "flipfloppery" is or you misunderstood my comments.

I'll spell it out.

If the lawsuit is ultimately successful, those supporting the officers will feel vindicated and those who wanted to see them nailed will take that as evidence that the system doesn't work.

If the lawsuit ultimately fails, those supporting the officers will feel that the system didn't work while those who wanted to see them nailed will feel some measure of vindication.

No flipflopping.  My comments were on the nature of American politics.

[mirkwood]

9 hours ago, unixknight said:

I don't mean this as an attack or anything, your comment raises a point I'd like to make.  I think you'd benefit greatly from living in a place like Baltimore, even if it's for a year.  When we debate, I often feel like your perspective would benefit from the more objective perspective you'd gain if you could see not only how people live in the area you're in now, but also in an area like Baltimore.  You'd be surprised how much it impacts one's worldview to see how other people live.

And I don't just mean brother LeSellers when I say that.  I think many of the folks on this board would gain that benefit.

I mean this kindly, not as an attack against anyone.

Why do you assume that people have not lived in places that would provide perspective like you state?  Does Philadelphia count?  How about Des Moines?  Miami?  Indianapolis?  Chicago? Seattle?

You imply that everyone who doesn't agree with the perspective you have is because they haven't lived somewhere "like Baltimore", but the truth is you don't know where most posters on this board have lived do you?

[estradling75]

14 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Either we have different understandings of what "flipfloppery" is or you misunderstood my comments.

I'll spell it out.

If the lawsuit is ultimately successful, those supporting the officers will feel vindicated and those who wanted to see them nailed will take that as evidence that the system doesn't work.

If the lawsuit ultimately fails, those supporting the officers will feel that the system didn't work while those who wanted to see them nailed will feel some measure of vindication.

No flipflopping.  My comments were on the nature of American politics.

That is basic flipfloping in my book....  It doesn't matter how bad your team might be... you will support them because they are them... Instead of standing on a principle and applying it to everyone weather you like them or not 

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Why do you assume that people have not lived in places that would provide perspective like you state?  Does Philadelphia count?  How about Des Moines?  Miami?  Indianapolis?  Chicago? Seattle?

You imply that everyone who doesn't agree with the perspective you have is because they haven't lived somewhere "like Baltimore", but the truth is you don't know where most posters on this board have lived do you?

Because I find it almost impossible to believe that someone could have the insular attitudes I've seen displayed by some of the folks I've discussed these issues with if they've actually seen this kind of stuff first hand.  And I'm not really talking about the Cops issue here, I'm talking about a general attitude shown by those (I don't need to name names, I think) that every person who lives in the squalid parts of Baltimore are somehow there by choice and/or deserve to be there.  I think that's a result of  just not having had to see it. 

I don't know if places like DesMoines or Miami count, I don't know those cities so you tell me.  I'm not gonna presume to know things about places I haven't been to.    Is it somehow unreasonable for me to ask the same of others?  Most of what people know about Baltimore is what the news media chooses to spoonfeed them, and that's true of both Liberal and Conservative sources, so I'm not going to be much impressed by anyone who asserts that "no I haven't been there but I've read all about it.  Huffington Post and Drudge Report don't count.

Am I being unreasonable?

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

That is basic flipfloping in my book....  It doesn't matter how bad your team might be... you will support them because they are them... Instead of standing on a principle and applying it to everyone weather you like them or not 

I hate to break it to you, but most people do that on some level whether they realize it or not.  We try not to, and some are more successful than others.  I won't claim to be particularly good or bad at it, all I can do is try my best.  I know a bunch of Democrats who excoriated Clinton before she won the nomination, now they're "with her."  I know people who swore to be NeverTrump and will now vote for him.  I know someone who absolutely hated Fords until they got a better deal on an F-150 than they would have for the equivalent Chevy.

I'm not commenting on whether this case has been handled well or badly by the courts because I wasn't in those courtrooms so I don't know. 

So is my commentary on American politics wrong?

[mirkwood]

19 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Because I find it almost impossible to believe that someone could have the insular attitudes I've seen displayed by some of the folks I've discussed these issues with if they've actually seen this kind of stuff first hand.  And I'm not really talking about the Cops issue here, I'm talking about a general attitude shown by those (I don't need to name names, I think) that every person who lives in the squalid parts of Baltimore are somehow there by choice and/or deserve to be there.  I think that's a result of  just not having had to see it. 

I don't know if places like DesMoines or Miami count, I don't know those cities so you tell me.  I'm not gonna presume to know things about places I haven't been to.    Is it somehow unreasonable for me to ask the same of others?  Most of what people know about Baltimore is what the news media chooses to spoonfeed them, and that's true of both Liberal and Conservative sources, so I'm not going to be much impressed by anyone who asserts that "no I haven't been there but I've read all about it.  Huffington Post and Drudge Report don't count.

Am I being unreasonable?

I hate to break it to you, but most people do that on some level whether they realize it or not.  We try not to, and some are more successful than others.  I won't claim to be particularly good or bad at it, all I can do is try my best.  I know a bunch of Democrats who excoriated Clinton before she won the nomination, now they're "with her."  I know people who swore to be NeverTrump and will now vote for him.  I know someone who absolutely hated Fords until they got a better deal on an F-150 than they would have for the equivalent Chevy.

I'm not commenting on whether this case has been handled well or badly by the courts because I wasn't in those courtrooms so I don't know. 

So is my commentary on American politics wrong?

Ok, so maybe I'm misunderstanding @unixknight and you are only commenting specific to Baltimore poverty issues?  Not general poverty issues?

 

I've understood most of the discussion of these issues to be rather general, with occasional specific locale references.

Edited July 28, 2016 by mirkwood

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Ok, so maybe I'm misunderstanding @unixknight and you are only commenting specific to Baltimore poverty issues?  Not general poverty issues?

That's a reasonable way to put it.  I only know Baltimore firsthand (and Washington DC) so while I suspect it's the same in other large cities, I can't claim to know from personal experience.

Baltimore is a pit, largely because they keep electing leaders who keep the poor where they are and then blame their political opponents for those problems.  Kinda like Detroit, only Baltimore has better geography so it's helped, but that isn't due to any competence on the part of elected officials there.

[mirkwood]

Ok.  I don't know Baltimore, so can only speak to general poverty issues in other places I have seen/lived.  Many of which I believe are commonplace among all areas of poverty.

[estradling75]

20 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So is my commentary on American politics wrong?

Sadly I don't think that it is...  However I wasn't commenting on American politics... I was commenting about those of us who prefer to wait until the investigation has run and the verdict is in before judging people...   When we talked about waiting on the cops to see what the court say... we were accused of hating the poor, hating blacks etc...  Now that is done... But now it flipped to the prosecutor.. and as people like me say wait and see what the courts say... we are going to be accused of hating the police.

Not because our principle stance has changed but because too many are about their team and will flip flop just like you described.

 

 

[estradling75]

20 minutes ago, unixknight said:

So is my commentary on American politics wrong?

Sadly I don't think that it is...  However I wasn't commenting on American politics... I was commenting about those of us who prefer to wait until the investigation has run and the verdict is in before judging people...   When we talked about waiting on the cops to see what the court say... we were accused of hating the poor, hating blacks etc...  Now that is done... But now it flipped to the prosecutor.. and as people like me say wait and see what the courts say... we are going to be accused of hating the police.

Not because our principle stance has changed but because too many are about their team and will flip flop just like you described.

 

 

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Ok.  I don't know Baltimore, so can only speak to general poverty issues in other places I have seen/lived.  Many of which I believe are commonplace among all areas of poverty.

Makes sense.  Naturally where poverty is rampant, crime skyrockets and the police have a much harder job.  I see that too in Baltimore.  I've said a lot on here that the BPD is corrupt but that doesn't mean the job is easy for them, especially the honorable guys.  (I won't claim to know what the proportion is.)  I think maybe for the guys who have fallen it's because they despair of ever actually being able to make things better.  I don't know that, but it seems likely.  What do you think?  Have you seen that happen?

[unixknight]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Sadly I don't think that it is...  However I wasn't commenting on American politics... I was commenting about those of us who prefer to wait until the investigation has run and the verdict is in before judging people...   When we talked about waiting on the cops to see what the court say... we were accused of hating the poor, hating blacks etc...  Now that is done... But now it flipped to the prosecutor.. and as people like me say wait and see what the courts say... we are going to be accused of hating the police.

Not because our principle stance has changed but because too many are about their team and will flip flop just like you described.

 

 

Yeah it seems like lately the argument du jour for a lot of people is "You disagree with x, therefore you hate y."  Which is idiotic... and I even suspect that a lot of the people who use that tactic know perfectly well how idiotic it is, but it often works because it puts people on the defensive.  "Wait!  No I don't hate y... I just think..."  

"SHUT UP, HATER!  YOU RACIST/MYSOGINIST/HOMOPHOBE/TRANSPHOBE/etc..."

[mirkwood]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2016/07/29/most-of-the-officers-charged-by-marilyn-mosby-are-now-suing-her-n2199938

 

 

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2016/07/29/most-of-the-officers-charged-by-marilyn-mosby-are-now-suing-her-n2199938

 

Quote

After all is said and done, the five of the six officers Mosby sought punishment for are returning the favor by filing a lawsuit against her, alleging she is guilty of defamation, false arrest, false imprisonment and more.

Quote

The complaint filed by Porter and White stated that Mosby "made statements for purposes of quelling the riots rather than prosecuting police officers who had committed a crime," and that Mosby "exceeded her authority" and "brought charges against police officers that were wholly unsupported by evidence and probable cause."

One charge not on their list, and one I'd think most likely to succeed, is "malicious prosecution". I don't know if this is part of Maryland law, but it should be — it jolly well should be.

Lehi

Edited July 31, 2016 by LeSellers

[mirkwood]

 

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/31/report-leaked-text-messages-from-baltimore-prosecutor-suggest-freddie-gray-case-was-about-politics-not-justice/

[NeuroTypical]

That feeling when you realize the only person left with an active complaint against them is you.

[mirkwood]

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/08/04/attorneys-for-baltimore-police-officers-say-marilyn-mosby-should-be-disbarred/