Thoughs about the Jaredites

[Older/Wiser?]

The last week I have thought about the Jaredites journey across the great deep.  The one thought was having pleaded with the Lord not to confound their language , they left as a group of family and friends having seen the result of confusion of tongues and the lack of communication . (If you've ever been to the south , then ya'll know how frustrating understanding  language can be). When studying scriptures I like to put the human element in it, how would I feel about it, how did these people think, for me it just makes the stories speak more and there struggles become mine. We live were we communicate will family and friends instantly ,even strangers.  These people saw what happens when you can't communicate division, so they pleaded for this not to happen to them. I left that thought , then a question came to me, they made a whole in the top and bottom of each of the barges, so how big was the whole. You may ask why does that matter or who cares? Well let me follow through with my thinking, was it  6 inches?  maybe 12 inches. Logic tells me it must have been the size of a man. Why ? Well we have animals and I know the work and amount of "processed food " from there herds and flocks that along with the families on each barge that would need to be desposed of at the end of a day. So part of Jareds or the least favored child job list would be disposing of the waste when the barge was on top of the water.  How often we don't know.  That simply is my estimation that the whole was big enough to at least climb through with let's say a bucket.  Now back to my original thought on communication, how did they for this year on the seas know there families and friends were alright,?  did it matter. Would it matter to you? I don't need a big conversation , but if I were on the open seas and family was in another ship sometimes submerged in the deep , I would  want to know at least on the morrow they were there and alright. In my minds eye I visualized the "brother of Jared" having prayed with his family all the day long , feeling the pounding of the waves pushing  them down into the depths, feeling the barge again rise and settling on the surface.  Having finished their prayers of gratitude for another safe days journey he climbs the rope ladder he made for the journey. He unstops the hole and lifts himself halfway out ,he gazing at the dark nights sky, calls to his wife to hand him the most sacred object they carry the reminder of his faith ,the expression of his knowledge of the Lord the stone the Lord Himself touched. He raises it above his head and  begins to count, one, two, three ah yes all eight . The symbolic sign to them" The light of the Lord truly will guides us through darkness."   We don't know of there journey of a year in just a few pages.  I believe the stones were used to communicate through light and to this day light the room were the sword of Laban is as described in the Journal of Discourses vol. 19 pgs. 38,39.  Now this was my question and my answer what's yours.

 

[Guest]

Well,there is this video that explains the usage of the holes quite well.

 

[Guest]

This video is a shortened version of what I saw years ago.  It misses the part about how waste was taken care of.  He shows the "raisins".  But he also showed a part where "floaties" were taken  care of as well.  When the hole at the top was opened, the pumping action actually moved floaties out of the boat as well.

[LeSellers]

This is eleven years old. I think it might work here.
 

Quote

Leesa wrote:
> I must be the only one
>I know who was impressed
> about the Jaredites coming
> over in what sounded like a
> very ancient version of the
> submarine.

That's a wide-spread misunderstanding
of the early Ether passages. Mahonri
and his brother did not build
"submarines".

We don't know exactly what they
looked like, but we do know a few
things about these barges.

First, since the group had built many
other water craft for crossing lakes
and rivers as they traversed (probably)
Europe*, they had skill in these arts.
No river requires a "submarine".
*Hugh Nibley hypothesized Asia, but
it doesn't fit for me. First, to
cross the Atlantic from Asia requires
some interesting navigation. However,
it wasn't until much later that Peleg
was born (in his days was the earth
divided--Gen 10:25), long after Jared
fled Babel, so who knows?

Second, the Lord gave* Mahonri
sixteen small stones to light the
interiors of the barges, so we know
they were sealed, and in contrast to
their earlier vessels, which
evidently needed no lights. These new
ocean-going craft also needed air
vents, unlike their predecessors.
*I know the story; just making it fit
in here.

A vessel tight like unto a dish still
lets some water in through any hole
in the bottom because the air
pressure inside the boat is less
(slightly, and growing as the depth
increases) than the pressure of the
water outside. So, those holes in the
bottoms of the barges were not opened
except while on land (it took nearly
a year to cross the ocean--far too
long with raging winds and seas) to
pick up fresh water, food and other
supplies. During these "port calls",
they would have hauled the boats up
on shore and drained the bilges.
Imagine living in a closed boat for a
year with animal and human waste
accumulating on the floor.

Since the barges were rather small
(the length of a tree), they can't
have been too tall, either--meaning
the people and animals were only a
few feet above the keel.

You might remember that the Lord told
Mahonri to open the upper vents for
air as needed, but He never said
anything about opening the hatches in
the bottoms of the boats.

I am not among those who believe this,
but there are many smart people who
think that these barges were not very
stable--that they might be flipped
upside down. If so, the second hole
would have assured there was always a
hole above for air. (A slight
alternative would be that the hauling
of the barges onto land might have
caused them to tip over. This is more
likely, in my mind. I can't see life
inside a boat that turned over during
high seas. Hard way to sleep--
sailors on wooden vessels millennia
later slept in hammocks so the
swaying of the ship helped them sleep.
I have a hard time envisioning a
hammock that would let the occupant
stay asleep during a complete rollover,
not to mention things falling all
around them.)

Finally, when the Lord told Mahonri
that they would be buried, and that
they would have waves crashing over
them, I refer you to any World War II
movie with ships vastly larger than
the Jaredite barges. You'll see huge
waves partially submerging those
massive craft. Think of poor Jared
with his tiny boat. I suspect the
image of the waves crashing over them,
as if they were like whales, would
have been frightening to the men,
terrifying to the women and children.
The Lord's promise that they would
always pop back up to the surface was
comforting. Any "burial" in the
depths of the sea would have been
very short-lived. We use the same term,
"buried under the water", to describe
baptism.

Anyway, there are serious problems
with the account if we try to make
the Jaredite barges into submarines.
Those problems go away when we see
them as large, floating boxes that
would have to face the huge Atlantic
waves most LDS scholars think Mahonri
and his brother braved.

Enjoy,
Lehi

Edited August 21, 2016 by LeSellers
Formatting

[LeSellers]

A follow on from the earlier conversation:
 

Quote

Amy wrote:

> I read about [the Jaredite vessels] this
> morning...I didn't have the impression that it
> was a submarine, but a barge that would have
> waves crashing over it often.

Yes, my image of the WW II ships keeps popping
into view for me.

> I also had the image in my mind of
> something shaped like a large enclosed canoe
> that would turn over sometimes.

I listed my objections to this, but they're
only my views, certainly not doctrine.

> I thought that it must have a
> "floating" floor in it (maybe on ball
> bearings?) ...

I think this would have made the newspapers,
or at least a brief note by Moroni as he
translated the Jaredite record. This
was technology beyond anything Mahonri
would have seen, and would most definitely
have required a vision or other revelation
for him to have accomplished. But, if the
barges/boats/vessels did roll over, it
would have had to be something like this.

> ... since the Lord told them to
> check one airhole and if water came in
> to open the other.

Actually, the Lord never said anything about
opening the other (lower) hatch. Even under
the waves, the passengers would have known
which hatch was above them, the only one
they'd have attempted to open. If they were
below the surface, however briefly, they
would not have wanted to leave it open.
This is another indicator that the barges
were not submerged for long: they waited
until they needed air, were "suffer[ing]"
before opening the upper hatch. They could
not have waited too much longer to re-open
it, so their stints under the waves
necessarily had to be short.

The only verse that speaks of opening a hatch is

Quote

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared:
Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and
also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer
for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive
air. And if it be so that the water come in upon
thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye
may not perish in the flood.

No mention at all of opening the other one,
ever.

As I said, I favor a "large drain" concept,
opened solely while the barge was pulled out
of the sea during replenishment layovers.
Others have hypothesized their opening the
lower hatch under weigh, but it is more
problematic in my view--the physics doesn't
support it as well. It doesn't eliminate it,
either, so I'm still open--it's just that the
available evidence leans, in my view, as I
have presented it.

In any case, there is nothing in the record
that points to a continuous 344-day voyage.
The length of time alone demands that they
stopped for fresh water and food. Even modern
nuclear-powered aircraft carriers (and
submarines that do not surface while on
patrol), with desalinization facilities for
water and pumps for waste, etc., don't stay
out at sea for longer than six months because
of the food issue. They have refrigeration
on board, as well, which greatly extends
their patrol radius. The size of Mahonri's
little barges makes it all the more imperative
that they took on fresh supplies from time to
time. And, while they were ashore, the boat
maintenance, including draining the bilge,
would have been a priority.

It is also rather interesting that recent
archeological and anthropological discoveries
have shown that the Jaredites were not the
only users of luminous stones while on a
long water voyage: Noah, too, according to
Jewish traditions (recorded in writings dating
back to the IV BC) had such illumination, and
the design of the ark was also a large box.
(Indeed, the word "ark" means "box" as in the
Ark of the Covenant.)

Anyway, it is good to see that others have
thought about Mahonri's sea voyage and
tried to understand and resolve the
logisitical and mechanical problems the
Jaredites faced.

Enjoy,
Lehi

Edited August 22, 2016 by LeSellers
Formatting

[NeedleinA]

Watching @Carborendum video reminded of a fun little item. When the Brother of Jared was trying to figure out how to light the barges he asks the Lord how to solve the problem. Ether 2:25 the Lord responds to him with a figure it out yourself, I don't have to spoon feed you everything: 

Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

The Brother of Jared comes back with his proposed solution Ether 3:4.

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all apower, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy bfinger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have clight while we shall cross the sea.

As you read in Genesis 6, it talks about the creation/sizes of the Ark etc. Genesis 6:16 reads:

16 A ^awindow shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and thirdstories shalt thou make it.

Footnote (a) window reads:  HEB tsohar; some rabbis believed it was a precious stone that shone in the ark. Ether 2:23 (23–24).

Appears the Lord had already given the Brother of Jared the answer to his problem, he just needed to go read his scriptures instead. Perhaps similar to us in our day, appears the Lord may not spoon feed us all of our answers to our problems IF he has already given us the answers in the scriptures.

Edited August 22, 2016 by NeedleinA

[LeSellers]

40 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Appears the Lord had already given the Brother of Jared the answer to his problem, he just needed to go read his scriptures instead. Perhaps similar to us in our day, appears the Lord may not spoon feed us all of our answers to our problems IF he has already given us the answers in the scriptures.

About a month ago, I was is in the Temple and thought,

Quote

The Brother of Jared searched for and found 16 small stones. He must have had some kind of an idea of why "stones" would work. I am wondering if he was reading the original text that Adam and Enoch and Noah wrote, because, from the information I've seen, Noah had a luminous stone (at least one) in the Ark. So, not only did Mahonri Moriancumer think about it, and go out and smelt the stones, but he also studied the scripture to get his answer.

I just copied his from my phone. (No, I wasn't taking notes in the Temple.)

Lehi

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by LeSellers

[Older/Wiser?]

Thanks for the video very interesting, makes sense to me,  The stones as a possible usage, like a lighthouse signal , communicating a signal a sign of safety etc. Was more of the line of thinking . The light in the darkest of night,  but just my thoughts. 

[NeedleinA]

15 minutes ago, Older/Wiser? said:

Thanks for the video very interesting, makes sense to me,  The stones as a possible usage, like a lighthouse signal , communicating a signal a sign of safety etc. Was more of the line of thinking . The light in the darkest of night,  but just my thoughts. 

I think it is a neat idea. I had never thought of it before honestly, but it sounds like a cool idea. I say, why not? It doesn't make it so, but it is as you state a "possible usage".

[Guest]

2 hours ago, LeSellers said:

This is eleven years old. I think it might work here.
Enjoy,
Lehi

It looks like they're not the only ones...

http://askgramps.org/why-did-the-jaredites-need-to-be-taught-how-to-build-their-ships/

 

[Blackmarch]

6 hours ago, Older/Wiser? said:

The last week I have thought about the Jaredites journey across the great deep.  The one thought was having pleaded with the Lord not to confound their language , they left as a group of family and friends having seen the result of confusion of tongues and the lack of communication . (If you've ever been to the south , then ya'll know how frustrating understanding  language can be). When studying scriptures I like to put the human element in it, how would I feel about it, how did these people think, for me it just makes the stories speak more and there struggles become mine. We live were we communicate will family and friends instantly ,even strangers.  These people saw what happens when you can't communicate division, so they pleaded for this not to happen to them. I left that thought , then a question came to me, they made a whole in the top and bottom of each of the barges, so how big was the whole. You may ask why does that matter or who cares? Well let me follow through with my thinking, was it  6 inches?  maybe 12 inches. Logic tells me it must have been the size of a man. Why ? Well we have animals and I know the work and amount of "processed food " from there herds and flocks that along with the families on each barge that would need to be desposed of at the end of a day. So part of Jareds or the least favored child job list would be disposing of the waste when the barge was on top of the water.  How often we don't know.  That simply is my estimation that the whole was big enough to at least climb through with let's say a bucket.  Now back to my original thought on communication, how did they for this year on the seas know there families and friends were alright,?  did it matter. Would it matter to you? I don't need a big conversation , but if I were on the open seas and family was in another ship sometimes submerged in the deep , I would  want to know at least on the morrow they were there and alright. In my minds eye I visualized the "brother of Jared" having prayed with his family all the day long , feeling the pounding of the waves pushing  them down into the depths, feeling the barge again rise and settling on the surface.  Having finished their prayers of gratitude for another safe days journey he climbs the rope ladder he made for the journey. He unstops the hole and lifts himself halfway out ,he gazing at the dark nights sky, calls to his wife to hand him the most sacred object they carry the reminder of his faith ,the expression of his knowledge of the Lord the stone the Lord Himself touched. He raises it above his head and  begins to count, one, two, three ah yes all eight . The symbolic sign to them" The light of the Lord truly will guides us through darkness."   We don't know of there journey of a year in just a few pages.  I believe the stones were used to communicate through light and to this day light the room were the sword of Laban is as described in the Journal of Discourses vol. 19 pgs. 38,39.  Now this was my question and my answer what's yours.

 

You need a way to get rid of waste, and you need a way to refresh your air.  I imagine they had to have faith in regards to when they couldnt see the other boats....

also you could open the bottom hatch at any point the bottom of the boat was pointed down and the top hatch was sealed.

there are some native american tribes with tellings of how their ancestors came to this land, in 8 turtle boats.

[Older/Wiser?]

31 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

You need a way to get rid of waste, and you need a way to refresh your air.  I imagine they had to have faith in regards to when they couldnt see the other boats....

also you could open the bottom hatch at any point the bottom of the boat was pointed down and the top hatch was sealed.

there are some native american tribes with tellings of how their ancestors came to this land, in 8 turtle boats.

I did find the video interesting as a way to get fresh air pumped in. I am lacking in skills to communicate my impressions so sorry about that. My point about the importance of communication was that they traveled by faith , yet the brother of Jared had the stones he had seen the Lord touch, know longer faith for him. He knew. The hole which was the least of my concerns ,  could have been the way which He would come out of the barge at night , as the others and  holding one of the stones out into the dark night communicate safety to the other 7 barges , as they would also do likewise.  I can speculate what this would mean to him to look out and know the hand of the Lord was upon them, and as a lighthouse or becon each member would know of the safety of the others. When I look at the leaders or prophets in the scriptures, I liken them unto us, then I see and relate to what is happening to them.  I appreciate input and I will look up traditions on turtle boats.