D&C 46:30 and Luke 23:34

[askandanswer]

 

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 46:30)

30  He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh.

My understanding of this first verse is that it is telling us that when we ask something of God, if we are “in the Spirit” when we ask, then what we are asking will be in accordance with the will of God, and whatever we are asking will be done.

 (New Testament | Luke 23:34)

4 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

My understanding of this second scripture is that Christ asked something of His Father – that those who were involved in His execution be forgiven.

 

When these two scriptures are looked at together, three possibilities emerge:

1 Jesus was not “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven and they were not forgiven as a result of this request.

2. Jesus was “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven, and that these people, who were participating in the killing of the Son of God, who did not even know that what they were doing was wrong, and who had done nothing on their own behalf to repent or seek forgiveness, were in fact forgiven, as requested by Jesus. (Ironically, it was only the person they were helping to kill, and the death of that person that made their forgiveness possible).

3. One of these verses is not true.

I’m not sure which of these possibilities is the most likely and they each seem to be mutually exclusive. Either Christ was not in the Spirit when He asked that they be forgiven, in which case they would not be forgiven as a result of His request, or He was in the Spirit when He asked, in which case His request would be granted, or that on at least one occasion, one of these verses was not true.

Any thoughts?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

When these two scriptures are looked at together, three possibilities emerge:

1 Jesus was not “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven and they were not forgiven as a result of this request.

2. Jesus was “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven, and that these people, who were participating in the killing of the Son of God, who did not even know that what they were doing was wrong, and who had done nothing on their own behalf to repent or seek forgiveness, were in fact forgiven, as requested by Jesus. (Ironically, it was only the person they were helping to kill, and the death of that person that made their forgiveness possible).

3. One of these verses is not true.

I’m not sure which of these possibilities is the most likely and they each seem to be mutually exclusive. Either Christ was not in the Spirit when He asked that they be forgiven, in which case they would not be forgiven as a result of His request, or He was in the Spirit when He asked, in which case His request would be granted, or that on at least one occasion, one of these verses was not true.

Any thoughts?

 

#2 is closest to correct.

#1 I have no idea what brought you to this conclusion.  I believe you are making some assumption that is not readily apparent to me.

#3 I don't see how they are mutually exclusive.

When a person does something wrong without knowing that it is wrong, we are automatically forgiven.  That is part of the atonement of Christ.  Such transgressions are swallowed up in Christ.  I know of no better passage than those Romans at the Crucifixtion to exemplify this idea.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 46:30)

30  He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh.

My understanding of this first verse is that it is telling us that when we ask something of God, if we are “in the Spirit” when we ask, then what we are asking will be in accordance with the will of God, and whatever we are asking will be done.

 (New Testament | Luke 23:34)

4 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

My understanding of this second scripture is that Christ asked something of His Father – that those who were involved in His execution be forgiven.

When these two scriptures are looked at together, three possibilities emerge:

1 Jesus was not “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven and they were not forgiven as a result of this request.

2. Jesus was “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven, and that these people, who were participating in the killing of the Son of God, who did not even know that what they were doing was wrong, and who had done nothing on their own behalf to repent or seek forgiveness, were in fact forgiven, as requested by Jesus. (Ironically, it was only the person they were helping to kill, and the death of that person that made their forgiveness possible).

3. One of these verses is not true.

I’m not sure which of these possibilities is the most likely and they each seem to be mutually exclusive. Either Christ was not in the Spirit when He asked that they be forgiven, in which case they would not be forgiven as a result of His request, or He was in the Spirit when He asked, in which case His request would be granted, or that on at least one occasion, one of these verses was not true.

Any thoughts?

I think #2 comes closest. Asking in the Spirit entails an attitude that the Father’s will be done. Jesus knew His atonement covers those who work against life (both temporally and spiritually) due to a lack of knowledge. As their Mediator and Advocate, He could rightly call upon the Father to forgive them. Some synonyms for forgive include make an allowance, acquit, exculpate and commute, each taking into account extenuating circumstances the offender has no control over.

[zil]

IMO, asking in the Spirit means the Spirit is guiding your words.  If you've never tried it, try asking what you should pray for, and then wait to be guided in your words.  IMO, we are taught this pattern somewhere or other...

(PS: I don't think it's possible for Christ not to be "in the Spirit".  When he requested this forgiveness he was acting as the Savior and Redeemer and Mediator he is - he was doing for them (who were ignorant of their sin) what he will do for you, if you sincerely repent.)

[Anddenex]

Quote

"1 Jesus was not “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven and they were not forgiven as a result of this request."

Jesus was perfect. There wasn't a time in his life that he wasn't "one" with the Father (even as a child growing grace for grace). Even as a young boy he was about his Father's will and had to gently, frankly, remind his mother who his Father was, and the work he was called to do. The soldiers were forgiven.

Quote

"2. Jesus was “in the Spirit” when He asked that those involved in His death be forgiven, and that these people, who were participating in the killing of the Son of God, who did not even know that what they were doing was wrong, and who had done nothing on their own behalf to repent or seek forgiveness, were in fact forgiven, as requested by Jesus. (Ironically, it was only the person they were helping to kill, and the death of that person that made their forgiveness possible)."

Jesus was perfect. This prayer was similar to all other prayers he offered, excluding Gethsemane and Jesus asking the Father if there was any other way, but not mine but thine will be done. I find the prayer intriguing because he was addressing an alternative option already knowing there was no other way. The notion of "in spirit" also means a recognition of two wills, and an obedience to Father's will -- thus he suffered it and partook (he came to do the "will" of him who sent him). The flesh yields to the Spirit of truth.

Yes, the soldiers were forgiven as requested by Jesus.

Quote

"3. One of these verses is not true."

This conclusion puzzles me a little as the reason for this statement is not clear. These scripture verses are both true. If we ask according to the will of God, or "in the Spirit," then what is requested will be given. Forgiveness was given to these soldiers for the work they were commanded to do by their superiors.

........................................................................................................................................................................

When I read Doctrine & Covenants 46: 30 pertaining to asking in the spirit my mind begins to reflect on the experience of Nephi in the Book of Mormon (Helaman 10). Nephi received a wonderful promise from the Lord, which was predicated upon Nephi's desire's to do God's will and his obedience, "And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in eed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will."

Nephi received a promise that anything he requested of the Father would be done because he would not ask anything, "contrary to [the Father's] will." Nephi's first and foremost desire was the Father's will. He had become like the Son, "not mine will, but thine be done," and "Here am I, send me."

This reminds me of my first experiences with giving priesthood blessings. I was so anxious, nervous, that I would say something that was contrary to the Spirit and it would not come to pass (thus effecting the faith and hope of the individual). After around 4-5 years I finally started to feel comfortable, confident, because I felt like I was finally beginning to understand God's will through blessings, and I could feel his guidance as I spoke words.

[askandanswer]

The atonement was an unusual day, and the normal rules that normally apply, did not seem to all apply for all of that day. 

(New Testament | Matthew 27:46)
46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?  that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
 See also Psalms, 22:1, and Mark, 15:34

There is abundant commentary on these verses, the bulk of it strongly suggesting that for some of the time, while on the cross, which was also where He was when He asked that the soldiers be forgiven, the Spirit was not with Him. 

From Elder Hollands April 2009 Conference address.

Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

There is abundant commentary on these verses, the bulk of it strongly suggesting that for some of the time, while on the cross, which was also where He was when He asked that the soldiers be forgiven, the Spirit was not with Him. 

I fail to see what this has to do with the questions at hand.  Check the timeline.  The Spirit did not withdraw from Him at the time He asked for forgiveness on behalf of the soldiers.  It happened after.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The atonement was an unusual day, and the normal rules that normally apply, did not seem to all apply for all of that day. 

(New Testament | Matthew 27:46)
46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?  that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
 See also Psalms, 22:1, and Mark, 15:34

There is abundant commentary on these verses, the bulk of it strongly suggesting that for some of the time, while on the cross, which was also where He was when He asked that the soldiers be forgiven, the Spirit was not with Him. 

From Elder Hollands April 2009 Conference address.

Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone.

And yet, in His abject, hopeless loneliness, He prayed for the forgiveness of others. While He sensed what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, He was still a divine Spirit in and of Himself. To me that is the epitome of atonement.