Doctrine and Covenants lesson 6

[askandanswer]

Our lesson in Sunday School today was lesson number 6, about Doctrine and Covenants Sections 8 and 9. During the lesson, several questions about the translation process occurred to me. First, some context.

In Doctrine and Covenants 8:  the Lord response to Oliver Cowdery’s desire to be able to translate by giving him these instructions:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 8:1 - 2)

1 OLIVER Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.

2  Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 8:9 - 11)

9  And, therefore, whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, and you shall have knowledge concerning it.

10  Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith.  Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not.

11  Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred; and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

 

 

If I was Oliver Cowdery, if given these instructions, I would think that what I needed to do in order to be able to translate, was to ask of God. I would further understand that if I did ask of God in faith, that the Lord would tell me in my mind and heart, by the Holy Ghost, what I was to write. There is absolutely nothing in these verses to suggest that Oliver needed to study in order to be able to translate, and a lot to suggest that what he needed to do was to ask of God. And yet, in Section 9, verses 7 and 8, Oliver was told that he had misunderstood the instructions about how to translate and that he was not correct in assuming that all he had to do was to ask of the Lord. He was also given additional instructions, after he had tried and failed to translate, that he needed to first study it out in his mind.

And now for the questions.

1.       Is there anything previous to verse 8, Section 9 that would have led Oliver to conclude that in order to translate he first needed to study it out in his mind, and is there anything that would lead Oliver to conclude that he needed to do something more than ask of God? Remember, that at this time, daily in front of him, Oliver had the example of Joseph Smith who never paused in his translation to study it out in his mind and who was constantly receiving, through the spirit of revelation speaking to his heart and mind, what he was to translate.

2.       Did the Lord use a different method for translation for Joseph Smith than he did for Oliver COwdery? There is nothing to suggest that Joseph ever needed to do any kind of studying in order to aid his translation of the Book of Mormon, but studying first seems to have been a key requirement for Oliver COwdery.

3.       Is anyone aware of any comparative studies on the similarities and differences between how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, the Bible and the Book of Abraham?

Edited February 5, 2017 by askandanswer

[CV75]

14 hours ago, askandanswer said:

1.       Is there anything previous to verse 8, Section 9 that would have led Oliver to conclude that in order to translate he first needed to study it out in his mind, and is there anything that would lead Oliver to conclude that he needed to do something more than ask of God? Remember, that at this time, daily in front of him, Oliver had the example of Joseph Smith who never paused in his translation to study it out in his mind and who was constantly receiving, through the spirit of revelation speaking to his heart and mind, what he was to translate.

2.       Did the Lord use a different method for translation for Joseph Smith than he did for Oliver COwdery? There is nothing to suggest that Joseph ever needed to do any kind of studying in order to aid his translation of the Book of Mormon, but studying first seems to have been a key requirement for Oliver COwdery.

3.       Is anyone aware of any comparative studies on the similarities and differences between how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, the Bible and the Book of Abraham?

The Revelations in Context series are very helpful. If I recall correctly:

1-Oliver had a conscience and common sense. He was a teacher of children and understood the principle of finding things out. He used a divining rod, which the Lord recognized as a bonafide means of finding things out. He had studied things out with Joseph before, as shown in Section 7. And in 8:12, it is clear the Lord had spoken to him before.

2-Jospeh spent many years "studying" with Mornoni. Oliver didn't have this exact advantage of tutelage, but he could still ponder, which I think is the same thing, and something he was used to doing with his gift of Aaron for some time (the sprout, the rod, divining).

3-The online essays get into these types of translation. Enjoy!

Edited February 5, 2017 by CV75

[JohnsonJones]

The following is MERELY my opinion  in regards to your LAST question in your post.

On translation between the texts...there were differences, and it varies depending on what your source is.  I am, of profession, a historian (though not really employed right now, so suddenly I have tons of time to spend on forums and other locations). 

In translating the Book of Mormon, there are various sources on how it was done.  Some sources say he used a seer stone (and I think this is actually mentioned in the Church Essays on the official Church site these days) in part of it.  Others say that he used the Urim and Thummim.  I am partial to the Urim and Thummim process of thought, as that was what was given to him of the Lord to help with the translation of the Book of Mormon, and as we find in the book of Mosiah, what was used previously in translation.  It is what I've read as per his own thoughts on how it was done.  Other sources, normally not a primary or even a secondary source are attributed to the seer stone idea, rather than a primary source (aka...someone heard that Whitmer told them this was how it was done in translating). 

Either way it was done, both say that he still had to study it out in his mind, and utilizing faith and prayer, that it was through this method that the words of the Book of Mormon were translated.

Many use the idea that there are several chapters that seem to be copied from the King James Version of the Bible in the book of Mormon.  To me, this actually seems to validate the translation of the Book of Mormon.  For those who adhere to the Seer Stone theory, those scribing the plates had full view of what Joseph was doing during the translation process.  That means Joseph had to have those entire passages from the King James memorized nearly by heart.  I have very rarely seen anyone know the Bible that accurately, and though there are those that do, they are few and far between.  You would have to say Joseph memorized the Bible by heart in order to give those out in full view of someone else who was scribing.

With the Urim and Thummim, with a small divider between them, some could say that it would also be possible for Joseph to have the Bible there, but that means he would be seen getting it and then gathering it to read it straight up.  I think it's possible he used a Bible in that instance, but if he did, it was in comparison to what he found already in the Book of Mormon and utilizing it as a tool after he realized how similar they were.  Either that, or we are back at him having memorized the entire Biblical passages again.  I find it highly unlikely, and instead think that those scribing the Book of Mormon would have realized that pretty easily.

Thus, I actually find the chapters found in the Bible and quoted in the Book of Mormon actually more assuring of the validity of the Book of Mormon and how it was translated, than anything else.

This is also a difference between the Book of Mormon and the other translations.  The bible wasn't really utilized in the translation of the Book of Mormon.  it was a straight translation of the words in the plates via revelation through the tools given by the Lord, faith, prayer, and study...just as it states it should be done in the D&C.

This differs from the Bible Translation and the Pearl of Great Price's Book of Abraham.  Once again, let me stress, these are my OPINIONS...not facts.

In regards to the Bible, I feel it was more a matter of prayer and revelation, far more than what one finds in regards to the Book of Mormon translation.  Whereas the Book of Mormon was a more literal translation of what was found on the Gold Plates and the original writings of the actual authors/prophets, the Bible was not (in fact, we don't have any original documents of the original writings if I recall, most of them are copies, even if they are very old copies and some close to the actual dates).

In the instance of the Bible, it was reading what is there, and then having revelation on what the original intent and writing actually was.  This is a very drastic difference than what and how the Book of Mormon was translated, but still something that a Seer and revelator is able to do.

Once again in my opinion.

Finally, the book of Abraham is an odd case.  It is a funerary text, and one that I feel Joseph knew was a funerary text.  I'd have to do background research, but I think he was aware at the time, of the supposed whereabouts of the remains of Joseph and the other patriarchs (there are other places in the world where those remains are purported to reside, and have for over a millennia).  Since I believe he knew this, the question is why he stated these texts were the book of Abraham from his own hand?

IN MY OPINION (as if I haven't said that enough here) I think it is in the same way when we read the Book of Mormon and claim it was written by Mormon.  Is the book in your living room or in your scripture case the actual book written by Mormon?

I feel the Book of Abraham was something similar to a parable, though slightly different.  It is like some books which have an initial outer meaning, but have a different and deeper meaning within.  Many times, that real meaning is something hidden from those who are not initiated into the actual meaning of the text, so those who are not initiated will have a completely different story or idea than those who are initiated.

With the Book of Abraham we can see the way Joseph Translated it.  First, he tried to reason out in his mind what these symbols could mean.  If you look on the Joseph Smith Papers, I believe they have copies of his attempt.  He tried to put symbols with words.  However, those words, in the order he put them down in, don't really make all that much sense, and in the order that they are put in, do not correlate to comprehensible sentences.  They ALSO do not correlate with the Pearl of Great Price's Book of Abraham that we have.  There are no sentences (that I have seen,  could be mistaken) that actually are there that are directly found in our Pearl of Great Price.

How did we get the Book of Abraham then?

So, here we have Joseph trying to study it out in his mind, and this is where the power of the Lord comes in.  After studying it, having faith, and prayer, he gets an answer in the form of revelation, which is finally where we actually get the Book of Abraham.  The best way to put it, is if it is on the actual scroll, it is a hidden meaning or hidden story/idea behind the actual stories.  Either way, AFTER study and prayer, it is basically almost a pure revelation and inspiration to Joseph Smith on the Book of Abraham.  It is basically revelation that he received after intense prayer and study on the subject.

So, in essence the differences of the three types of translation would be

1. Book of Mormon - Literal translation of the original writings from the Gold Plates

2. Revelation on the original intent or writings of the Bible

3. Revelation after study and prayer on a specific subject.

All are things a prophet, seer and revelator can do, but different in how they were accomplished.

And finally, just so if you didn't realize it before, this is ALL in my opinion, not anything strictly doctrinal or fact.

[Guest]

On 2/5/2017 at 0:55 AM, askandanswer said:

Is there anything previous to verse 8, Section 9 that would have led Oliver to conclude that in order to translate he first needed to study it out in his mind, and is there anything that would lead Oliver to conclude that he needed to do something more than ask of God?

The method of translation was the use of the urim and thummim (or seer stones if you prefer).  Oliver knew nothing about how to use them.  All he did was see Joseph use them.  I have no idea if he even asked the question, "Joseph, how is it that you can use those stones?  What is the procedure?  What to you do with them?" or so forth.  It seemed only to be "Hey, let me try it."  He didn't realize that such a power requires training and time -- time that they didn't have. 

So, for that reason, he was denied.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Guest

[Sunday21]

Link for revelations in context https://history.lds.org/section/revelations?lang=eng

link to 'why a stone was used' in translation https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-was-a-stone-used-as-an-aid-in-translating-the-book-of-mormon

Interesting discussion of lesson 6 (and a lot of other stuff. Warning! Long!) includes some speculation on translation methods

 

[askandanswer]

18 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

The following is MERELY my opinion  in regards to your LAST question in your post.

On translation between the texts...there were differences, and it varies depending on what your source is.  I am, of profession, a historian (though not really employed right now, so suddenly I have tons of time to spend on forums and other locations). 

In translating the Book of Mormon, there are various sources on how it was done.  Some sources say he used a seer stone (and I think this is actually mentioned in the Church Essays on the official Church site these days) in part of it.  Others say that he used the Urim and Thummim.  I am partial to the Urim and Thummim process of thought, as that was what was given to him of the Lord to help with the translation of the Book of Mormon, and as we find in the book of Mosiah, what was used previously in translation.  It is what I've read as per his own thoughts on how it was done.  Other sources, normally not a primary or even a secondary source are attributed to the seer stone idea, rather than a primary source (aka...someone heard that Whitmer told them this was how it was done in translating). 

Either way it was done, both say that he still had to study it out in his mind, and utilizing faith and prayer, that it was through this method that the words of the Book of Mormon were translated.

Many use the idea that there are several chapters that seem to be copied from the King James Version of the Bible in the book of Mormon.  To me, this actually seems to validate the translation of the Book of Mormon.  For those who adhere to the Seer Stone theory, those scribing the plates had full view of what Joseph was doing during the translation process.  That means Joseph had to have those entire passages from the King James memorized nearly by heart.  I have very rarely seen anyone know the Bible that accurately, and though there are those that do, they are few and far between.  You would have to say Joseph memorized the Bible by heart in order to give those out in full view of someone else who was scribing.

With the Urim and Thummim, with a small divider between them, some could say that it would also be possible for Joseph to have the Bible there, but that means he would be seen getting it and then gathering it to read it straight up.  I think it's possible he used a Bible in that instance, but if he did, it was in comparison to what he found already in the Book of Mormon and utilizing it as a tool after he realized how similar they were.  Either that, or we are back at him having memorized the entire Biblical passages again.  I find it highly unlikely, and instead think that those scribing the Book of Mormon would have realized that pretty easily.

Thus, I actually find the chapters found in the Bible and quoted in the Book of Mormon actually more assuring of the validity of the Book of Mormon and how it was translated, than anything else.

This is also a difference between the Book of Mormon and the other translations.  The bible wasn't really utilized in the translation of the Book of Mormon.  it was a straight translation of the words in the plates via revelation through the tools given by the Lord, faith, prayer, and study...just as it states it should be done in the D&C.

This differs from the Bible Translation and the Pearl of Great Price's Book of Abraham.  Once again, let me stress, these are my OPINIONS...not facts.

In regards to the Bible, I feel it was more a matter of prayer and revelation, far more than what one finds in regards to the Book of Mormon translation.  Whereas the Book of Mormon was a more literal translation of what was found on the Gold Plates and the original writings of the actual authors/prophets, the Bible was not (in fact, we don't have any original documents of the original writings if I recall, most of them are copies, even if they are very old copies and some close to the actual dates).

In the instance of the Bible, it was reading what is there, and then having revelation on what the original intent and writing actually was.  This is a very drastic difference than what and how the Book of Mormon was translated, but still something that a Seer and revelator is able to do.

Once again in my opinion.

Finally, the book of Abraham is an odd case.  It is a funerary text, and one that I feel Joseph knew was a funerary text.  I'd have to do background research, but I think he was aware at the time, of the supposed whereabouts of the remains of Joseph and the other patriarchs (there are other places in the world where those remains are purported to reside, and have for over a millennia).  Since I believe he knew this, the question is why he stated these texts were the book of Abraham from his own hand?

IN MY OPINION (as if I haven't said that enough here) I think it is in the same way when we read the Book of Mormon and claim it was written by Mormon.  Is the book in your living room or in your scripture case the actual book written by Mormon?

I feel the Book of Abraham was something similar to a parable, though slightly different.  It is like some books which have an initial outer meaning, but have a different and deeper meaning within.  Many times, that real meaning is something hidden from those who are not initiated into the actual meaning of the text, so those who are not initiated will have a completely different story or idea than those who are initiated.

With the Book of Abraham we can see the way Joseph Translated it.  First, he tried to reason out in his mind what these symbols could mean.  If you look on the Joseph Smith Papers, I believe they have copies of his attempt.  He tried to put symbols with words.  However, those words, in the order he put them down in, don't really make all that much sense, and in the order that they are put in, do not correlate to comprehensible sentences.  They ALSO do not correlate with the Pearl of Great Price's Book of Abraham that we have.  There are no sentences (that I have seen,  could be mistaken) that actually are there that are directly found in our Pearl of Great Price.

How did we get the Book of Abraham then?

So, here we have Joseph trying to study it out in his mind, and this is where the power of the Lord comes in.  After studying it, having faith, and prayer, he gets an answer in the form of revelation, which is finally where we actually get the Book of Abraham.  The best way to put it, is if it is on the actual scroll, it is a hidden meaning or hidden story/idea behind the actual stories.  Either way, AFTER study and prayer, it is basically almost a pure revelation and inspiration to Joseph Smith on the Book of Abraham.  It is basically revelation that he received after intense prayer and study on the subject.

So, in essence the differences of the three types of translation would be

1. Book of Mormon - Literal translation of the original writings from the Gold Plates

2. Revelation on the original intent or writings of the Bible

3. Revelation after study and prayer on a specific subject.

All are things a prophet, seer and revelator can do, but different in how they were accomplished.

And finally, just so if you didn't realize it before, this is ALL in my opinion, not anything strictly doctrinal or fact.

Thank you Johnson, I'll have to read and think about this several times