Book Of Revelation

[Traveler]

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Mostly there are two great sources of understanding. One is physical and scientific, the other is spiritual. I do object to those attempting to define that which is spiritual with physical and scientific means. Or even the other way around – to define or interpret that which is physical by spiritual means.

You've left out experiential.

I know that Boston Mass exists, not because science has proved it or the spirit has revealed it to me - but because I've been there - or is that what you meant by "physical."

As you have used it - it is physical.

I hope I misunderstand. Traveler, you've traveled much, and give the impression of being one who is wise. Perhaps your knowledge comes more from experience and encounters than from academic study.

Nevertheless, to compare those learned believers who dedicate themselves to lifelong pursuit of Scriptural study (I assume including those at BYU) with Scribes & Pharisees is wrong, imho. BTW, though Paul made tents, he was indeed a scriptural scholar, and a strong proponent of study.

Furthermore, the Scribes and Pharisees were not condemned for their study, but for not believing in Jesus.

Jesus may be no respecter of persons, but He has indeed called some to be teachers--it is a gift of the Spirit. We do well to pay attention to those whom God has anointed such. They are not prophets, and they do not claim infallibility. But, they know a thing or two--more than I do, and more than most of us.

Without question education has its merits. Study is an accentual part of learning. Scholarship honors diligences. Give scholarship it’s due but let us not render under Caesar that which belongs to G-d. I believe the scriptures and the utterances of G-d are explicitly clear concerning the spiritual basis of certain scripture. We are warned through G-d’s servants that we should not think ourselves wise concerning spiritual things because we are learned.

Concerning the Book of Revelation – I believe we can through our diligence and scholar ship become knowledgeable or Patmos and the marble mines to which John was banished until the expectation of his death. This was not a vacation or holiday. We should study the time and how Rome destroyed the Jewish society and that at that time Christians were considered Jewish. We should be knowledgeable of the historian Josephus and his efforts to preserve a remnant of Jewish (Christian) history that was being systematically uprooted. I could talk about the dark history in which John struggled to keep essential elements of Christ’s teachings alive.

We could and should use learning and scholarship to compare the writings of and how the Book of Revelation is distinctly different both in literary content and literary form for any of John’s other writings. However, John claimed that the Book of Revelation was not of his creation but was dictated to him by the Spirit of G-d (See Revelation 1:1). John was also told that this book of sacred scripture was not to be tampered with in any way – what-so-ever (see Revelation 22:18 - 19). By commandment of G-d – no one is to tamper with this Revelation. All that I suggest is that this text is sacred and not to be tampered with, dissected by scholarship or explained by commentary. It is to stand as it is – to be read as it was written to be heard as it was spoken and understood as it was given (See Revelation 1:3). The spirit of G-s is the only commentary acceptable to G-d and his saints.

Why is this such a difficult concept? Is nothing sacred? Must we bend and shape everything around our point of view? If it does not fit our paradigm then we must reshape it and introduce commentary to explain away that which is G-d’s to make it fit that which fits us? I have tried such methods and determined them all in error. No – no more will I bend G-d’s word in Revelation and mold it into my paradigm. What I do not comprehend I will wait on G-d for explanation. You are welcome to the commentaries of men. I see no spiritual profit or prophet in such effort.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Commentaries generally do much of what you outlined as being useful. Of course, they go further, offering meanings of particular words (Greek and Aramaic), and yes, they sometimes proffer possible understandings of given passages. The better commentaries explain the major viewpoints, and then offer suggestions as to which one the authors believe is strongest.

Commentaries are not Scripture, though. They do not pretend to be. They do not claim canonical revelation status. In essence, they are textbooks. They are a blessed resource for Bible teachers to use as study tools.

IMHO, it is an honor to Scripture that we grapple with meanings, both individually, and corporately. The adding to or taking from of Revelation is not a prohibition against teaching about.

[Traveler]

Commentaries generally do much of what you outlined as being useful. Of course, they go further, offering meanings of particular words (Greek and Aramaic), and yes, they sometimes proffer possible understandings of given passages. The better commentaries explain the major viewpoints, and then offer suggestions as to which one the authors believe is strongest.

Commentaries are not Scripture, though. They do not pretend to be. They do not claim canonical revelation status. In essence, they are textbooks. They are a blessed resource for Bible teachers to use as study tools.

IMHO, it is an honor to Scripture that we grapple with meanings, both individually, and corporately. The adding to or taking from of Revelation is not a prohibition against teaching about.

Interesting view point. Do any of the commentaries do a comparison of the spiritual symbol of "sword" in the scriptures of Genesis and the Book of Revelation; as that symbol of "sword" is used in relation to the salvation of man?

The Traveler

[pushka]

Traveler, I'm interested to know what you think of the authors of prose on Fair LDS with regard to LDS doctrine etc. Would those authors be considered scholars, who researched in order to gain the knowledge and insight that they have into certain subjects under discussion? I know that you wish to rely on the promptings of the Holy Spirit with regard to the truthfulness of anything you read, and would guess that you might use this as a reason why scholars on Fair LDS differ from non LDS scholars?

[Traveler]

Traveler, I'm interested to know what you think of the authors of prose on Fair LDS with regard to LDS doctrine etc. Would those authors be considered scholars, who researched in order to gain the knowledge and insight that they have into certain subjects under discussion? I know that you wish to rely on the promptings of the Holy Spirit with regard to the truthfulness of anything you read, and would guess that you might use this as a reason why scholars on Fair LDS differ from non LDS scholars?

I am very sorry that I have not made myself clear. I am not against scholarship. I am not against rhetorical methods and logic. I believe the problem is that anyone that would see them self as a hammer seems to think of everything else as a nail.

Just like all things cannot be solved by mathematics (like loving your spouse); not everything needs to be dissected with the scholarship of philosophy. I am trying to suggest that we use the correct tool for the job. Not all scripture needs to be approached as we must the Book of Revelation. Most scripture can be appreciated with scholarship and study.

I believe that the gospel of John requires a great deal of study and scholarship for understanding – especially why it is not of the mold of the other gospel scriptures. But just because a hammer works so well with nails does not mean that it is the ideal tool for working glass. The Book of Revelation has alluded generations of believers that attempt to view it as any other scripture. It is not of the character of other scripture and requires spiritual insight for understanding and true interpretation.

But I do not seem to be able to get past the first notion and that is that the Book of Revelation is different than other scripture. I would have thought anyone that has attempted to read scripture (including the Book of Revelation) ought to be able to figure that out. But alas – once someone has a hammer in hand, everything is a nail and no amount of my trying to bring a different perspective seems worth consideration.

The Traveler