Book Of Revelation

[Annabelli]

I don't understand how the Book of Revelation relates to the gospel as taught by Jesus in the New Testament.

Without the Book of Revelation, the New Testament ends similar to how the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon ends.

In doing some ancient scripture studies, I have found several accounts that that the Book of Revelation was written much later and added at a later date.

There is also mention that the Book of Revelation is the only book that is not authored or does not bear a signature trait.

What are your thoughts about this? I would like to have a better understanding of the Book of Revelation's importance in the scriptures.

[Josie]

"BIBLE DICTIONARY: Revelation of John

Also known as the Apocalypse, a Greek word meaning revealed or uncovered. The message of Revelation is the same as that of all scripture: there will be an eventual triumph on this earth of God over the devil; a permanent victory of good over evil, of the saints over their persecutors, of the kingdom of God over the kingdoms of men and of Satan. This is the subject on which Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Paul, Peter, and all the prophets have written. They spoke of a day of victory that would come, and that the end would be better (i.e., more glorious) than the beginning. The victory would be achieved through Jesus Christ.

Such is the theme of the Revelation. The details about the beasts, the wars, the angels, the men, etc., contribute to the development of this theme. By a little study, the theme can be perceived even if the details are not completely identified. It may be in this sense that the Prophet Joseph Smith said that Revelation was “one of the plainest books God ever caused to be written” (HC 5: 342). However, the more fully the details are understood, the greater will be the appreciation of the theme. If we fail to catch a glimpse of the theme, we fail in our comprehension, no matter how many details we are able to understand.

Some Guidelines to Understanding:

The Revelation seems to be divided into two parts. The first, chs. 1 to 3, deals with things at the time the Revelation was given, and is addressed to branches of the Church in seven cities of Asia. Note Rev. 1: 3: “the time is at hand.” These three chapters show clearly that the Church in that day was rapidly going into apostasy.

The second part, chs. 4 - 22, deals with things yet future for John, i.e., things that had not yet come to pass. It begins with John’s time and continues to the end of the world. Note Rev. 4: 1: “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Accordingly, it offers a sort of panoramic view of events through the ages - of apostasy, restoration, judgment and millennium.

Apostasy and restoration. Apostasy and restoration are relatively gradual events. Compare the setting and the rising of the sun. It does not become dark or light all at once (see D&C 45: 29).

A guided tour. An interesting circumstance in the Revelation is that an angel comes to John and explains things to him - a sort of guided tour. This is consistent with the visions given to Nephi, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Enoch, who had similar guided tours. It appears to be a typical visionary experience. "

This is from our own Bible Dictionary and there are references also there explaining some of the things you might question.

[Doctor Steuss]

IIRC, the Apocalypse of John dates to around 90-95 CE (although I might have that confused with the Gospel of John, but I think that dates later). According to tradition, it was written during the reign of Domitian. Given that there are some pretty strong hints that it was written during some oppressive times for the Christian dudes, this period makes sense (to me). Although Nero is what many think the "Mark of the beast" points to, I think that the reign of Domitian (and Domitian himself) matches better... mainly because Nero's actions didn't really persecute based solely on religious grounds as much as Domitian did.

I'm pretty sure tradition establishes fairly well that John of Patmos was indeed the author, although there may have been alterations made to the text over time (about a 52% variant rate between manuscripts), the overall text as we have it is probably pretty danged close to what the original was.

Maybe this will help... this is from Norman Perrin's The New Testament: An Introduction, pages 81-82:

That John of Patmos can be identified as a prophet is more important to understanding his work than identifying him with some other individual named John in the New Testament. Traditionally it has been claimed that he is the John, son of Zebedee, known to us from the gospel stories, but this is most unlikely. It has also been claimed that he is the "John" of the fourth gospel, but the difference in language and style alone makes this identification quite impossible. However, that he is able to identify himself, and as a prophet (in sharp contrast to the pseudonymity and practice of apocalyptic writers in general), speaks volumes for the vitality, power, and self-confidence of New Testament Christianity.

Another most unusual aspect of the book of Revelation is its letters to seven churches in Asia Minor: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea (see chapters 2 and 3). This is unparalleled in apocalyptic writing and has to be due ultimately to the impact that Paul's letter writing made on the New Testament church. Paul's letters had become so important that the literary form was imitated even by an apocalyptic writer. The book of Revelation as a whole has the external form of a letter in that it begins with an opening salutation (1:4-6) and closes with a benediction (22:21). The contrast in literary form between the direct address of the letters and the symbolic drama of the remainder of the book is startling, but no more so than the fact that an apocalyptic writer identifies himself and calls his work a prophecy.

The fact that we have here the outward form of a Pauline letter helps us to grasp the essential thrust of the work. It begins with a salutation in the Pauline style: "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Rev 1:5b-6; compare Gal 1:3-5). But then it continues: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amon" (1:7). This is a classic statement of early Christian hope for the return of Jesus as apocalyptic judge and redeemer. Similarly, the closing benediction, "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen" (22:21), is in the Pauline style, but it is preceded by a prayer for the coming of the Lord, "Come, Lord Jesus" (22:20). However, this is the early Palestinian Christian Eucharist prayer Maranatha, which Paul himself used at the end of a letter: "Our Lord, come! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen" (1 Cor 16:22-24). It is a reminder that for all its surface strangeness, the book of Revelation is not to be separated from the rest of the New Testament. The hope it represents is a fundamental feature of a major part of the New Testament.

[prisonchaplain]

Revelation is a great NT book. It draws from many other parts of the Bible for its warnings and elaborate portrayals. It promises blessings to both its readers and hearers. It tells us that Jesus is coming soon, that the wicked will be judged, the righteous rewarded, and that believers should endure to the end, and should proclaim the Good News.

We're told not to seal up the prophecies of the book. I've taught much from it, and convinced that just underneath the complicated pictures, are so many practical and clear teachings. Do not be afraid of God's Word--He gives us blessings, not troubles.

[Annabelli]

Thank You for your responses. It gives me an insight as how to read/receive the Book of Revelation.

Some years ago, I read a book which I think was entitled "The Epistle of Paul." While it was more the accounts of Paul's work, they kept switching his name from Saul to Paul. Saul/Paul stayed in character with the accounts of Paul's work but the name changing was very confusing. (I had just borrowed the book from a private library and read it on my lunch hour. It was a book written around 1850-1910 and was not associated with any Church.)

I just do not understand how Saul and Paul fit together.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

I just do not understand how Saul and Paul fit together.

Acts 13: 9

Saul of Tarsus is Paul. Saul was his Hebrew name. After he began his mission amongst the "Gentiles," he began going by Paul.

[Annabelli]

Thanks Doctor Steuss. Do you have any recommended reading or favorite works on the the Epistle of Paul?

Are there books written which gives accounts of his Missionary Journeys and separates them into chapter?

[Doctor Steuss]

Thanks Doctor Steuss. Do you have any recommended reading or favorite works on the the Epistle of Paul?

Are there books written which gives accounts of his Missionary Journeys and separates them into chapter?

From an LDS author, I would probably recommend Paul's Life and Letters by Dr. Sydney Sperry (it might be out of print, but you should be able to find a used copy). Also, you might enjoy this short read. You'll have to print it out because of the way the pages were scanned. And maybe this too (this is over 14 MB, so it will take a while to load). And possibly this one too (this is another big file).

It's been a while since I read this one, but I recall that it was a pretty good read.

Hope these help.

BTW, if you want a really good book that has oodles of New Testament info (including on Paul), I'd suggest The New Testament: An Introduction by Norman Perrin. It's more of a scholarly look at the texts (and the author is not LDS), but I think it is soooo worth owning. Here's a little sample regarding 2 Thessalonians (this is from page 119):

Second Thessalonians is so like 1 Thessalonians and yet so different that it must be an imitation of 1 Thessalonians written to meet a later situation. Verbal similarities begin with the first verse and continue throughout; yet there are very real theological differences between the two letters, the most important being that of eschatological perspective. In 1 Thessalonians the parousia, the coming of Jesus from heaven as apocalyptic judge and redeemer, is imminent. When Paul speaks of "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:15), he clearly expects the event in his own lifetime. But 2 Thes 2:3-12 sets out an elaborate program of what must first happen before that event can occur. Not only has the apocalyptic imagery changed, but the whole tenor of the expectation is different. Another notably non-Pauline feature of the letter is the idea that the judgment of God will be a reward for the persecuted Christians and a persecution of the persecutors (1:5-10). This way of thinking is not only non-Pauline, it belongs to a generation later than Paul's, more poetically expressed in Rev 16:5-7 and 19:2.

[tiancum]

Doctor Steuss, may i ask a question? Just out of curiosity and way of topic.

Are you really a doctor? and if so, cool, in what?

Talk about random. Sorry i was just curious.

[Doctor Steuss]

Doctor Steuss, may i ask a question? Just out of curiosity and way of topic.

Are you really a doctor? and if so, cool, in what?

Talk about random. Sorry i was just curious.

No. It's just a term of endearment I've picked up. But if I was a doctor, it would probably be in Misanthropic Misology.

[Annabelli]

Doctor Steuss: Thank you for all the wonderful works that you have given me. It is all totally fascinating. I am reading the first one (you can rotate the pages).

Paul's work was so much like Joseph Smith's.

[prisonchaplain]

Paul's work was so much like Joseph Smith's.

Now that is an interesting observation. What similarities do you see?

[Doctor Steuss]

Doctor Steuss: Thank you for all the wonderful works that you have given me. It is all totally fascinating. I am reading the first one (you can rotate the pages).

You are very welcome.

Paul's work was so much like Joseph Smith's.

Parallel Prophets: Paul and Joseph Smith

[Traveler]

I am inclined to believe that the Book of Revelation is based on that which is spiritual and not that which is understood by “the natural man”. I realize from another thread that spiritual notions are not well understood or experienced in our modern society. Personally I do not believe that the Book of Revelation can be better understood by aid of commentary. I believe you are more apt to be lead astray with non-scripture commentary than by using spiritual mediatory methods.

I find it interesting that the Bible begins with the spiritual breathings of Genesis and ends with the spiritual symbols of the Book of Revelation and that so many of the symbols are the same spiritual symbols – With this in mind read Genesis 41:25 and then Genesis 41:32.

Dare I speak to spiritual symbols that are at the "beginning" (or Alpha) and the "end" or (Omega) of scripture - not likely - that which is sacred must be obtained by sacred means. This I leave up to the holy spirit - he that has eyes shall see.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

A quick word about commentaries. It is often appealing to say, "I don't listen to the words of men...but rather allow the Spirit to reveal truth to me directly, through Scripture." Yet, one of the gifts of the Spirit is teaching. Commentaries are written by those gifted in teaching and research. They are blessed to spend their lives laboring over Scripture, learning the nuances, the languages, the cultural and literary fineries. So, we read them--not as Scripture--but as aids, as helpers, as added insight. They give us tools and wisdom to help us understand.

So rather than debating whether we should use commentaries or rely on the Spirit, I'd suggest we do both. They should compliment each other, not contrast.

[a-train]

If you want the authortitative declaration of the authenticity of the the Book of Revelation from LDS sources, go to 1 Nephi 14:18-27 and read Nephi's words:

'And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe. And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been. And he shall also write concerning the end of the world. Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men. And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see. But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them. And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel. And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel.'

-a-train

[Annabelli]

Thanks a-train.

I think some of my problems dealing with the end of times is that there is so much to be achieved here and now. It is very frustrating dealing with people who are setting on the edge of their seats with their bags packed and waiting for "the call."

More importantly "What are in their bags?" What can you have accomplished that you no longer have to work? What is the Lord's Will?

I believe that we must prepare one generation for the next generation as though the end of days are far away in our own life times.

We have witnessed five to ten generations in America and that has only occurred in 200+ years.

Nephi obviously acknowledged the Book of Revelation as being sacred scripture and I respect that as true.

I would not lust after another form of religion who think that they have the keys to it.

[Traveler]

A quick word about commentaries. It is often appealing to say, "I don't listen to the words of men...but rather allow the Spirit to reveal truth to me directly, through Scripture." Yet, one of the gifts of the Spirit is teaching. Commentaries are written by those gifted in teaching and research. They are blessed to spend their lives laboring over Scripture, learning the nuances, the languages, the cultural and literary fineries. So, we read them--not as Scripture--but as aids, as helpers, as added insight. They give us tools and wisdom to help us understand.

So rather than debating whether we should use commentaries or rely on the Spirit, I'd suggest we do both. They should compliment each other, not contrast.

I would agree with you except concerning the things that are of spiritual nature. I have read many commentaries concerning the Book of Revelation and such commentaries seem to head off in as many directions. In fact every commentary I have ever read (including those of the Dark Ages) concerning the Book of Revelation claim that time spoken of is near and that events of that day fulfill the prophesies. Mostly I feel that those that write commentaries have pre-conceived ideas and are looking for excuses to claim their ideas are correct. Kind of like the step sisters in Cinderella putting on the glass slipper and attempting to convince anyone that will listen that it fits.

I made reference to Genesis 41 verses 25 and 32 for a reason - it demonstrates how a servant of G-d with the gift of the spirit interprets spiritual symbols for others. I have yet to read a commentary on the Book of Revelation that speaks with such authority and direction as did Joseph before Pharaoh. Speaking as Joseph did was not the result of study and obtaining a degree in such studies. It was, however, a great gift that came to Joseph by covenant -- after his trial in the covenant.

If anyone knows the answers to the spiritual symbols of the Book of Revelation - whether they obtained them by the spirit as did Joseph or through study I would be most interested in what you feel the spirit has manifested to you. I do think it is interesting that many that seek the understanding of the spirit are convinced that by listening to the spirit in meditation; one is more likely to hear a demonic spirit. Which causes me to wonder - if a demonic spirit can appear in all ways as a spirit of light - how can you not be concerned that a commentary of the Book of Revelation is also not influenced by a demonic spirit? I am not sure I buy into the idea that devotion to study is the key. It does not appear to be the key used by any that have recorded the scriptures we have today. I have yet to see a footnote denoting research in scripture - with the exception of Jude 14. And if I ever bring up the footnote of Jude; I am informed by those that do research, that Jude did a poor job of his research.

I have not quite figured out what G-d is telling us in the Book of Revelation (perhaps parts and some – but not all) and I have yet to feel that the spirit has told more to the writers of commentary – and this includes LDS commentaries as well. I have discussed some of the spiritual symbols with Jews – that do not believe the NT – and I think they have more understanding than the experts that study all the ancient stuff.

As we debate this issue I am amazed that with all the sureness in commentary no one has said that as G-d lives and Jesus is the Christ a certain commentary is by the spirit of G-d. And that, I find as interesting as the discussions itself – especially by those that defend and look to commentaries for answers.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Thanks a-train.

I think some of my problems dealing with the end of times is that there is so much to be achieved here and now. It is very frustrating dealing with people who are setting on the edge of their seats with their bags packed and waiting for "the call."

More importantly "What are in their bags?" What can you have accomplished that you no longer have to work? What is the Lord's Will?

I believe that we must prepare one generation for the next generation as though the end of days are far away in our own life times.

We have witnessed five to ten generations in America and that has only occurred in 200+ years.

Nephi obviously acknowledged the Book of Revelation as being sacred scripture and I respect that as true.

I would not lust after another form of religion who think that they have the keys to it.

This, I think, is an excellent post. I remember going through military training during the Vietnam era, how many bragged that they were ready for combat and bragged about what they would do. I remember well the night we first received orders for combat and we left into the dark of night. Those that said they were ready were not. Some were so unprepared, regardless of their training that endangered not only their lives but the lives of those that needed to trust them to do their job. Because of this experience I often ask the question when I hear someone talk as though they have all the answers - would I go into into combat with them.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I would agree with you except concerning the things that are of spiritual nature. I have read many commentaries concerning the Book of Revelation and such commentaries seem to head off in as many directions. In fact every commentary I have ever read (including those of the Dark Ages) concerning the Book of Revelation claim that time spoken of is near and that events of that day fulfill the prophesies. Mostly I feel that those that write commentaries have pre-conceived ideas and are looking for excuses to claim their ideas are correct. Kind of like the step sisters in Cinderella putting on the glass slipper and attempting to convince anyone that will listen that it fits.

Let's start with the obvious. Not all "commentaries" are created equal. For example, what to say about the tome: 88 Reasons the Rapture must take place in 1988. On the other hand, there are excellent works that take their labor with reverence, caution, and without the temptation to offer innovative speculation. Great commentaries should offer background and insight, not concrete 'interpretions' to clearly abstract passages.

If anyone knows the answers to the spiritual symbols of the Book of Revelation - whether they obtained them by the spirit as did Joseph or through study I would be most interested in what you feel the spirit has manifested to you.

One great blessing that commentaries will show us (or even good Study Bibles) is that many of the abstract passages in Revelation are near-direct quotations from OT prophets. Looking at the OT text in context can often give us a broad understanding of the meaning of the Revelation one.

I do think it is interesting that many that seek the understanding of the spirit are convinced that by listening to the spirit in meditation; one is more likely to hear a demonic spirit. Which causes me to wonder - if a demonic spirit can appear in all ways as a spirit of light - how can you not be concerned that a commentary of the Book of Revelation is also not influenced by a demonic spirit? I am not sure I buy into the idea that devotion to study is the key. It does not appear to be the key used by any that have recorded the scriptures we have today. I have yet to see a footnote denoting research in scripture - with the exception of Jude 14. And if I ever bring up the footnote of Jude; I am informed by those that do research, that Jude did a poor job of his research.

Knowledge on fire! There are repeated commands throughout Scripture that we study to show ourselves approved. God can anoint a donkey to speak his word, but the norm is to use those dedicated to him through a life of discipline--both meditative and studious.

Again, there should be no contest between study and prayerful meditation. The two should absolutely compliment one another. All Spirit and know study can lead to deception (the demonic you mention). All study (law) and no spirit leads to spiritual death. We need both. They feed one another, if we let them.

I have not quite figured out what G-d is telling us in the Book of Revelation (perhaps parts and some – but not all) and I have yet to feel that the spirit has told more to the writers of commentary – and this includes LDS commentaries as well. I have discussed some of the spiritual symbols with Jews – that do not believe the NT – and I think they have more understanding than the experts that study all the ancient stuff.

Maybe you are expectating commentators to answer different questions then they usually address? I'm not sure. Perhaps you've simply not encountered quality ones.

BTW, my normal course of study is to do primary work first--direct Scripture study and prayer. Prepare my outline, and then see if the commentaries have anything to add--or possibly correct.

As we debate this issue I am amazed that with all the sureness in commentary no one has said that as G-d lives and Jesus is the Christ a certain commentary is by the spirit of G-d. And that, I find as interesting as the discussions itself – especially by those that defend and look to commentaries for answers.

The Traveler

I'm not sure what you're getting at? You don't trust commentaries because they do not claim to be canon? They aren't. They don't pretend to be. They offer knowledge, usually combined with wisdom. And yes, if God has gifted the writer, they offer Spirit-directed instruction as well.

Perhaps you're opposing over-confidence in acadamia. Maybe you've encountered error presented as absolute truth. I'm not sure. I really don't get your skepticism towards those who labor to explicate God's Word.

Thanks a-train.

I think some of my problems dealing with the end of times is that there is so much to be achieved here and now. It is very frustrating dealing with people who are setting on the edge of their seats with their bags packed and waiting for "the call."

More importantly "What are in their bags?" What can you have accomplished that you no longer have to work? What is the Lord's Will?

I believe that we must prepare one generation for the next generation as though the end of days are far away in our own life times.

We have witnessed five to ten generations in America and that has only occurred in 200+ years.

Nephi obviously acknowledged the Book of Revelation as being sacred scripture and I respect that as true.

I would not lust after another form of religion who think that they have the keys to it.

Just as I argue that study and meditation go together, so I argue that Christians should be ready to go at any time, and yet wise in preparing to live a long, full life. Scripture clearly says Christ's return is imminent. But, it does not tell us when. So, we stand ready, with our oil jars full (our lives in full communion with the Holy Spirit).

Perhaps the following tale gives some perspective. A theology professor was once asked what he would advise to his students, if he knew the 2nd coming was exactly 4 years away. Of course, they expected him to recommend dropping out of school and immediately heading out to preach the Good News.

Instead he suggested that they should study for three and a half years, and then preach for six months.

Do not interpret this as academic elitism. Rather, it is to say that the servant of God can do more in a short time if s/he has been disciplined in allowing God to work wisdom, understanding, and anointing into his/her life.

[Traveler]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? You don't trust commentaries because they do not claim to be canon? They aren't. They don't pretend to be. They offer knowledge, usually combined with wisdom. And yes, if God has gifted the writer, they offer Spirit-directed instruction as well.

Perhaps you're opposing over-confidence in acadamia. Maybe you've encountered error presented as absolute truth. I'm not sure. I really don't get your skepticism towards those who labor to explicate God's Word.

I do not trust any effort to interpret what G-d has caused to be written, by those that admit that they do so by “trusting” in the arm of the flesh. I do believe in study, I do believe is seeking from the most knowledgeable one can find. Mostly there are two great sources of understanding. One is physical and scientific, the other is spiritual. I do object to those attempting to define that which is spiritual with physical and scientific means. Or even the other way around – to define or interpret that which is physical by spiritual means.

It is the methods of man to use the art of philosophy (theories, study, objective annalists and rhetorical logic) to obtain conclusions. But what do the scriptures say of such things? Colossians 2:8 “Beware least any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Most LDS understand the source of “the philosophies of men – mingled with scripture”.

Let me offer an example – I think a very good one. In the days of Christ who was it that used the arts of philosophy (the methods of study as suggested) to unlock spiritual symbols in scripture? They were called Scribes and Pharisees. In John 7 we have a most interesting exchange between Christ and the experts – those that devoted their lives to the study of scripture and it interpretation. In verse 48 the experts and those that devoted their lives to study respond “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?”

It is interesting to me that Jesus did not select from the teachers, scribes or the experts of his day (that have devoted their lives to the art of studying wisdom) to go through out the world to give witness (commentary) concerning him. He chose among those that have devoted their lives to such lowly and unprofessional things as “Fisherman”, “Tent maker”, “Tax collector” and such.

I submit in all honesty that it is my understanding that not only did Christ not call the experts in scripture and such of his day to give witness and commentary – he has never inspired such any more than those that seek him in their private studies and personal convictions. G-d is no respecter of persons and is just as likely to inspire a taxi driver as a prestigious scholar – yet we do not see the commentaries (witnesses) honored and published of the taxi drivers as we do those that please the logic and pride of the world.

Therefore I declare that I believe in Christ – I believe in his methods – I respect his judgments and as much as I can with my flawed efforts – I look to that which comes by the same means of commentary (or witness) today as it did when Jesus walked among us. I see no reason to through in the trash that which Jesus taught or the methods he used to determine by what means he authorizes his commentaries or witnesses.

I hope this makes it very clear what I am getting at.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I hope I misunderstand. Traveler, you've traveled much, and give the impression of being one who is wise. Perhaps your knowledge comes more from experience and encounters than from academic study.

Nevertheless, to compare those learned believers who dedicate themselves to lifelong pursuit of Scriptural study (I assume including those at BYU) with Scribes & Pharisees is wrong, imho. BTW, though Paul made tents, he was indeed a scriptural scholar, and a strong proponent of study.

Furthermore, the Scribes and Pharisees were not condemned for their study, but for not believing in Jesus.

Jesus may be no respecter of persons, but He has indeed called some to be teachers--it is a gift of the Spirit. We do well to pay attention to those whom God has anointed such. They are not prophets, and they do not claim infallibility. But, they know a thing or two--more than I do, and more than most of us.

[a-train]

I've often wondered if there were any scribes or Pharisees among the early Christians. I mean, if they indeed were familiar with the scriptures as they were, perhaps they could have been ready for the LORD.

I think the reason that many of them treated the LORD so bitterly had nothing to do with scriptures and their interpretation, but rather the position of the scribes and Pharisees in society and their willingness to preserve that status all integrity aside. I think this is why they received such a burning, nasty characterization within the New Testament. They weren't good 'ol boys who misunderstood some scriptures, they were shady dudes in it for the worldly gains. Their wresting of the scriptures was not unintentional. YIKES!

-a-train

[Gaia]

I don't understand how the Book of Revelation relates to the gospel as taught by Jesus in the New Testament.

Without the Book of Revelation, the New Testament ends similar to how the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon ends.

In doing some ancient scripture studies, I have found several accounts that that the Book of Revelation was written much later and added at a later date.

There is also mention that the Book of Revelation is the only book that is not authored or does not bear a signature trait.

What are your thoughts about this? I would like to have a better understanding of the Book of Revelation's importance in the scriptures.

GAIA:

Hello Annabelli --

Many people believe that in fact, REvelation was written for the Saints of the New TEstament period, who really did expect Jesus to return any moment, and who had major issues with the Romans.....Others of course think it was written to the generation of the "Last Days" -- and of course, they like to think they are that generation, since we all want to beleive that we're right in the middle of the key moments and issues of the world *g*....

In fact, I was a young BYU student when i converted and was very new in the Church, many years ago *smile* -- And there was then as i expect there is now, a tendency to participate in a kind of ongoing and very serious "game" to interpret the symbols of Revelation in terms of current events....

Everybody and their Aunt Tillie seemed to have a pet theory about the meanings and symbolism of each of the images of revelation -- and many of those interpretations conflicted with each other!

My point here is to recommend caution and encourage discretion, wisdom, and care in determining whose interpretations to accept, and how much to make of them a "theory of Everything"....

Good luck and Blessings -

~Gaia

[Snow]

Mostly there are two great sources of understanding. One is physical and scientific, the other is spiritual. I do object to those attempting to define that which is spiritual with physical and scientific means. Or even the other way around – to define or interpret that which is physical by spiritual means.

You've left out experiential.

I know that Boston Mass exists, not because science has proved it or the spirit has revealed it to me - but because I've been there - or is that what you meant by "physical."