Alma 41:4

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Where does D&C 76 mention sons of perdition in the telestial world?

 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

cross reference this scripture to those in the footnotes

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev. 22:14-15)

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (D&C 63:17)

 

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

cross reference this scripture to those in the footnotes

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev. 22:14-15)

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (D&C 63:17)

 

This ties back to my remarks about distinguishing between contexts. D&C 76 does not tie sons of perdition to the telestial kingdom, but to the "lake" or "second death" (which can refer to either a spiritual or a physical separation from God*, or both, depending on the estate -- pre-mortal, mortal, post-mortal spirit world or post-resurrection -- in which it occurs) which is different than that faced by those in the telestial world.

The quotes you provided above are tied to the telestial world (by footnote at least); D&C 76:26-38 is about perdition and its separate and unique form of "second death" (see verses 45-48; the telestial world is then described in a detailed way that allows it to be known by more than just to "them who are made partakers thereof.").

*The Book of Mormon also calls it a "gulf."

Edited May 12, 2017 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This ties back to my remarks about distinguishing between contexts. D&C 76 does not tie sons of perdition to the telestial kingdom, but to the footnoted "lake" or "second death" (which can refer to either a spiritual or a physical separation from God*, or both, depending on the estate -- pre-mortal, mortal, post-mortal spirit world or post-resurrection -- in which it occurs) from the telestial world. These quotes you provided are tied to the telestial world (by footnote at least); D&C 76:26-38 is about Perdition and its separate and unique form of "second death" (see verses 45-48; the telestial world is then described in a detailed way that allows it to be known by more than just to "them who are made partakers thereof.").

*The Book of Mormon also calls it a "gulf."

The second death is only pronounced upon the sons of perdition. Until all are resurrected and come before judgment the second death doesnt begin. The second death is the final death from which there is no salvation from.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.
17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.
18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.
19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death. (Helaman 14:16-19)

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God. (Alma 12:32)

41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed. (D&C 29:41)

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The second death is only pronounced upon the sons of perdition. Until all are resurrected and come before judgment the second death doesnt begin. The second death is the final death from which there is no salvation from.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.
17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.
18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.
19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death. (Helaman 14:16-19)

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God. (Alma 12:32)

41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed. (D&C 29:41)

I see what you're saying. Let's say the second death is only for the sons of perdition.  But also, the Book or Mormon is the fulness of the Gospel, not the fulness of doctrine. The Lord's will is that all are exalted and none are lost; that is reflected in the two outcomes as He sees them. He invites us all to one and un-invites to the other. But in exercising our wills, we create other options that He doesn't invite us to. These can be construed as leading to a form of second death, but not the same as that ultimate form of second death experienced by the sons of perdition.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, CV75 said:

I see what you're saying. Let's say the second death is only for the sons of perdition.  But also, the Book or Mormon is the fulness of the Gospel, not the fulness of doctrine. The Lord's will is that all are exalted and none are lost; that is reflected in the two outcomes as He sees them. He invites us all to one and un-invites to the other. But in exercising our wills, we create other options that He doesn't invite us to. These can be construed as leading to a form of second death, but not the same as that ultimate form of second death experienced by the sons of perdition.

We are not creating our own heaven. The criteria to be saved is already set. Its repentance from all sin and obedience to all Gods commandments. It is only through that strictness that we access the atonement that saves us. If we do not meet that strict standard then one cannot be saved at all.

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We are not creating our own heaven. The criteria to be saved is already set. Its repentance from all sin and obedience to all Gods commandments. It is only through that strictness that we access the atonement that saves us. If we do not meet that strict standard then one cannot be saved at all.

It depends on what you mean by "create" and "heaven." In a sense we do create our own "heaven." See Isaiah 50:11; D&C 88:21-25, 32 and the like.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

It depends on what you mean by "create" and "heaven." In a sense we do create our own "heaven." See Isaiah 50:11; D&C 88:21-25, 32 and the like.

What I mean is that we do not create our own path of salvation or place in heaven we stagnate and are happy with where we can still sin a little.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

What I mean is that we do not create our own path of salvation or place in heaven we stagnate and are happy with where we can still sin a little.

Do you mean we are not the authors of the plan of salvation? Of course we are not.

Do you mean that only through Jesus we are resurrected? Of course that is so.

Do you mean that only through Jesus we are exalted? Of course that is so also.

Do you mean that there is no quickened (immortal) kingdom with a law lesser than exaltation? The scriptures do not teach that (D&C 88:37-39, and many other verses in that Section).

Do you mean that a fixed course (including one eternal round) is stagnation (88:43)? By definition the fixed courses move (verse 42), albeit within their bounds and conditions (verse 38).

Do you equate "happy" with "enjoyment," as in enjoying one thing and not something better (88:32)? I don't see being happy and a lack of willingness to enjoy as the same thing.

[Rob Osborn]

17 hours ago, CV75 said:

Do you mean we are not the authors of the plan of salvation? Of course we are not.

Do you mean that only through Jesus we are resurrected? Of course that is so.

Do you mean that only through Jesus we are exalted? Of course that is so also.

Do you mean that there is no quickened (immortal) kingdom with a law lesser than exaltation? The scriptures do not teach that (D&C 88:37-39, and many other verses in that Section).

Do you mean that a fixed course (including one eternal round) is stagnation (88:43)? By definition the fixed courses move (verse 42), albeit within their bounds and conditions (verse 38).

Do you equate "happy" with "enjoyment," as in enjoying one thing and not something better (88:32)? I don't see being happy and a lack of willingness to enjoy as the same thing.

I think we are speaking about different things.

[CV75]

23 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think we are speaking about different things.

I am speaking about the teachings on the resurrection in D&C 88, which build on those in D&C 76, wherein “through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead… And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul… and [our] glory shall be that glory by which [our] bodies are quickened.”

The earth will be a celestial glory, and “the poor and the meek of the earth… and the righteous shall inherit it,” in other words, “bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever.” Those who cannot abide the earth’s celestial glory “must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom” or “a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.”

That “which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same,” so that which is telestial, for example, is preserved and perfected and sanctified by that same law, which culminates in a lesser glory than the terrestrial or celestial laws. “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.” This ties to Isaiah 50:11, where, for ecxaple, that which breaketh the telestial law cannot be sanctified to that degree, but “shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received” because He does not rejoice in the highest gift Jesus prepared through His Atonement.

I think most significantly to your point, D&C 88 is describing the kingdoms to exist in the resurrection. In terms of glory and places (the earth and the planets) of habitation, their “courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth [celestial] and all the planets [other degrees of glory];” they do not change. They and their inhabitants each receive “in his own order… the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season.” Obviously some hours and times and seasons obviously have more light and glory than others. In terms of timing, this is to take place after the seventh trump and the final battle of the great God, and then we have the declaration, “This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.”

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I am speaking about the teachings on the resurrection in D&C 88, which build on those in D&C 76, wherein “through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead… And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul… and [our] glory shall be that glory by which [our] bodies are quickened.”

 

The earth will be a celestial glory, and “the poor and the meek of the earth… and the righteous shall inherit it,” in other words, “bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever.” Those who cannot abide the earth’s celestial glory “must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom” or “a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.”

 

That “which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same,” so that which is telestial, for example, is preserved and perfected and sanctified by that same law, which culminates in a lesser glory than the terrestrial or celestial laws. “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.” This ties to Isaiah 50:11, where, for ecxaple, that which breaketh the telestial law cannot be sanctified to that degree, but “shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received” because He does not rejoice in the highest gift Jesus prepared through His Atonement.

 

I think most significantly to your point, D&C 88 is describing the kingdoms to exist in the resurrection. In terms of glory and places (the earth and the planets) of habitation, their “courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth [celestial] and all the planets [other degrees of glory];” they do not change. They and their inhabitants each receive “in his own order… the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season.” Obviously some hours and times and seasons obviously have more light and glory than others. In terms of timing, this is to take place after the seventh trump and the final battle of the great God, and then we have the declaration, “This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.”

 

Section 88 contains a lot of mysteties and nuggets.

Focusing in on the first 5 verses is of real interest to me because it establishes Gods work and glory. 

In verse 2 it says "...and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world."

Two things, the first is the mention of the book of the names of the sanctified. This is the book of life. In Revelations it speaks of this book as containing the names of the saved and that if your name isnt found in the book then you are in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. The second thing here is that the book of life contains the inhabitants of the celestial world.  Revelations also speak of this as all those names found in this book have access to the celestial world, the tree of life, and abide in the holy city with Heavenly father and Jesus Christ. Those not let into this city (the celestial kingdom) are the sons of perdition in the lake of fire and brimstone.

Next in verses 4-5 it states

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

Two things- 1. Eternal life is the glory of the celestial kingdom 2. The church of the firstborn is the glory of the celestial kingdom and all its inhabitants are members .

According to the Book of Mormon and NT, D&C, PogP there is only two outcomes- either eternal life or eternal death, the one on one hand and the other on the other hand. In order to be saved one must born again through Jesus Christ. When one is born again through Christ they become members of the church of the firstborn and are sons and daughters in his kingdom.

Im curious to see how you understand these verses.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Section 88 contains a lot of mysteties and nuggets.

Focusing in on the first 5 verses is of real interest to me because it establishes Gods work and glory. 

In verse 2 it says "...and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world."

Two things, the first is the mention of the book of the names of the sanctified. This is the book of life. In Revelations it speaks of this book as containing the names of the saved and that if your name isnt found in the book then you are in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. The second thing here is that the book of life contains the inhabitants of the celestial world.  Revelations also speak of this as all those names found in this book have access to the celestial world, the tree of life, and abide in the holy city with Heavenly father and Jesus Christ. Those not let into this city (the celestial kingdom) are the sons of perdition in the lake of fire and brimstone.

Next in verses 4-5 it states

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

Two things- 1. Eternal life is the glory of the celestial kingdom 2. The church of the firstborn is the glory of the celestial kingdom and all its inhabitants are members .

According to the Book of Mormon and NT, D&C, PogP there is only two outcomes- either eternal life or eternal death, the one on one hand and the other on the other hand. In order to be saved one must born again through Jesus Christ. When one is born again through Christ they become members of the church of the firstborn and are sons and daughters in his kingdom.

Im curious to see how you understand these verses.

As far as your curiosity, as I’ve said before, the Atonement of Christ offers but two options as far as He is concerned, one matching and one opposing the will of the Father. He did not perform an infinite and eternal sacrifice in the interest of promoting mediocre alternatives. But we also have our wills, and exercising the agency the Father gave us and Christ won for us, we can align with one of God’s two options, or more accurately, His only option offered to us (i.e. hot or cold), or with the law of some other kingdom (lukewarm). That is the context in which I understand these verses.

So for D&C 88:1-5, He is speaking to Joseph Smith and those who have assembled themselves together on this occasion to receive His will concerning them. He says He is pleased with them and is sending them the other Comforter or the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the promise of eternal life, which promise records their names in the book of life, and which is yet to be realized in the resurrection as explained in the rest of the Section (and in my post above).

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

As far as your curiosity, as I’ve said before, the Atonement of Christ offers but two options as far as He is concerned, one matching and one opposing the will of the Father. He did not perform an infinite and eternal sacrifice in the interest of promoting mediocre alternatives. But we also have our wills, and exercising the agency the Father gave us and Christ won for us, we can align with one of God’s two options, or more accurately, His only option offered to us (i.e. hot or cold), or with the law of some other kingdom (lukewarm). That is the context in which I understand these verses.

 

So for D&C 88:1-5, He is speaking to Joseph Smith and those who have assembled themselves together on this occasion to receive His will concerning them. He says He is pleased with them and is sending them the other Comforter or the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the promise of eternal life, which promise records their names in the book of life, and which is yet to be realized in the resurrection as explained in the rest of the Section (and in my post above).

Im interested in your view of salvation in a lukewarm kingdom as you say. I personally do not see this as a possibility. If one is saved eternally from hell its through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. That places them on the path whereby they becone spotless. So, when you mention this "lukewarm" I am curious how you believe this works.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im interested in your view of salvation in a lukewarm kingdom as you say. I personally do not see this as a possibility. If one is saved eternally from hell its through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. That places them on the path whereby they becone spotless. So, when you mention this "lukewarm" I am curious how you believe this works.

As I've noted several times, I believe it works according to our agency vis-a-vis that which is offered -- which is only partly represented in the things you listed above -- through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I think this Revelations in Context article might shed some light on that: https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-in-context-the-vision?lang=eng

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

As I've noted several times, I believe it works according to our agency vis-a-vis that which is offered -- which is only partly represented in the things you listed above -- through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I think this Revelations in Context article might shed some light on that: https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-in-context-the-vision?lang=eng

The vision, as seen by many is a universalist idea. I think many stumbled upon it because the Book of Mormon doesnt teach any type of universalism. I find it interesting that LDS doctrine seems stuck in this quagmire between strict heaven/hell and universalism. Undoubtedly there is contradiction upon contradiction and our doctrines do not add up. Take for example this set of verses from the D&C found in section 29-

"26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

This teaches a very strict heaven or hell approach where there are only two groups- the righteous, who all inherit eternal life on the right hand of God, or the wicked on the left hand to be cast out with the devil and his angels into everlasting fire. The problem here is that these verses contradict the beliefs from "the vision" of section 76. There is no way the two ideas taught here can mesh. Either one or the other is wrong. Some who I have debated have said simply that the verses in section 29 are just incomplete. If thats the case then the Lord doesnt do a very good job of expounding his doctrine. No, I believe the truth is that section 29 is exactly correct and nothing needs to be added to it. Why? Because later revelations on the subject, also found in the D&C support fully the verses in section 29 and in doing so, cast doubt on our interpretations of section 76. In the end, we are not universalists, or anything even close, at all. Look here at these verses from sections recorded after 29 and 76.-

 

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. (D&C 84:74, given 7 months after section 76)

29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned. (D&C 112:29, given 5 years after section 76)

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire. (D&C 101:65-66, given almost two years after section 76)

 

I think one thing we must remember is that section 76 was given in answer to Joseph Smiths prayer about the structure of salvation and how it works because it was hard for Joseph Smith to understand a strict heaven or hell dichotomy. So, the vision was given. The problem here is that how Joseph Smith interpreted the vision is incorrect and a very careful reading of the section proves there are contradictions. The temple endowment, which came years later actually go hand in hand with section 76 and clarifies things perfectly. The problem is however that no one really believes or can grasp that the endowment is the closest teaching we have regarding the plan of salvation and it is to the extreme side of a strict heaven or hell dichotomy. The truth is we are the furthest thing away from being classified as universalists.

This is a classic case of why the gospel is restored line uopn line. This shows completely how inadequate man is at understanding godliness. The Lord tried to show that it really is a strict heaven or hell dichotomy and that in order to be saved we have to become perfect through the atonement by repentance and baptism because the atonement has no power to cleanse and make one spotless otherwise. 

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The problem here is that how Joseph Smith interpreted the vision is incorrect and a very careful reading of the section proves there are contradictions.

If that were the case, D&C 88 would have clarified his misinterpretation, but it doesn’t. To the contrary, it further emphasizes and expounds upon the degrees of glory with references to law, quickening, places, the earth, planets, fixed courses, orders, hours, times and seasons and which describe conditions in the post-seventh trump, post-final battle, post-resurrection, post-judgement world. Notably, Joseph received this information just after receiving the other Comforter, the Holy Spirit of promise and having his name recorded in the book of life. These revelations simply don’t fit in the strict heaven-and-hell schema you advocate, but they in many ways complement by the use of comparison those that reveal the Lord’s will that we partake fully of what He offers, the primary intent of His Atonement from His perspective, and the words He uses to express that desire (including the temple endowment and ordinances) . Posted 20 hours ago

These references in D&C 88 accentuate the Lord’s will (as expressed through His work and glory) in terms of the greatest gift, that of eternal life, while further elucidating on D&C 76. Would you comment on each of those tie-ins specifically?

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If that were the case, D&C 88 would have clarified his misinterpretation, but it doesn’t. To the contrary, it further emphasizes and expounds upon the degrees of glory with references to law, quickening, places, the earth, planets, fixed courses, orders, hours, times and seasons and which describe conditions in the post-seventh trump, post-final battle, post-resurrection, post-judgement world. Notably, Joseph received this information just after receiving the other Comforter, the Holy Spirit of promise and having his name recorded in the book of life. These revelations simply don’t fit in the strict heaven-and-hell schema you advocate, but they in many ways complement by the use of comparison those that reveal the Lord’s will that we partake fully of what He offers, the primary intent of His Atonement from His perspective, and the words He uses to express that desire (including the temple endowment and ordinances) . Posted 20 hours ago

 

These references in D&C 88 accentuate the Lord’s will (as expressed through His work and glory) in terms of the greatest gift, that of eternal life, while further elucidating on D&C 76. Would you comment on each of those tie-ins specifically?

 

D&C 88 is interesting indeed. But, in my opinion, its a matter of interpretation, whether it was right or not. The strict heaven or hell dichotomy is not my own construct, its what the scriptures actually teach. On the one hand you have this strict dichotomy and on the other you have universalism where even the wicked are saved. Obviously these two doctrines contradict each other. Certain doctrines such as the Lord visiting each kingdom of his vineyard as detailed in section 88 are meant to show a much broader picture but oft overlooked. For instance, the twelve times he visits means that in our system he has visited 11 other planets over which he is the Savior over. Our planet is the last or culminating sequence where all of the work is finalized, where the Savior took upon a bidy, was crucified, resurrected, etc. But, its the last kingdom pertaining to salvation before all becomes celestial.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

D&C 88 is interesting indeed. But, in my opinion, its a matter of interpretation, whether it was right or not. The strict heaven or hell dichotomy is not my own construct, its what the scriptures actually teach. On the one hand you have this strict dichotomy and on the other you have universalism where even the wicked are saved. Obviously these two doctrines contradict each other. Certain doctrines such as the Lord visiting each kingdom of his vineyard as detailed in section 88 are meant to show a much broader picture but oft overlooked. For instance, the twelve times he visits means that in our system he has visited 11 other planets over which he is the Savior over. Our planet is the last or culminating sequence where all of the work is finalized, where the Savior took upon a bidy, was crucified, resurrected, etc. But, its the last kingdom pertaining to salvation before all becomes celestial.

Of course everything is a matter of interpretation. The scriptures teach the dichotomy to convey appreciation of the Lord’s will, intent, sacrifice and greatness, and they also teach the variableness of immortal glory in comparison. I think the accurate understanding needs to incorporate both sets of teachings and acknowledge the line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept principle at work throughout the Restoration and the dispensation of the fulness of times. Both the Lord’s will and the wills of those who refuse His fulness operate and manifest their consequences in pre-mortality, mortality, and into immortality.

The idea you just shared doesn’t recognize the degrees of light received from the Lord’s fulness according to the orbits (fixed courses) hours, times, seasons, reckoning (hours, weeks, months, years), etc., nor does it recognize how these differ between “the earth and all the planets.” The parable, which He clearly identifies as a parable, uses twelve fields for the sake of illustration, but we know from elsewhere that “these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof” are actually innumerable and comprehend (include) the earth in her celestial state and all the planets in their varying states. And we know from the context of the D&C 88 revelation, He is describing the ultimate, finished condition of those to whom He gave agency. I’m not seeing how these points fit into the twelfth-and-final world schema you just shared.

[Rob Osborn]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Of course everything is a matter of interpretation. The scriptures teach the dichotomy to convey appreciation of the Lord’s will, intent, sacrifice and greatness, and they also teach the variableness of immortal glory in comparison. I think the accurate understanding needs to incorporate both sets of teachings and acknowledge the line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept principle at work throughout the Restoration and the dispensation of the fulness of times. Both the Lord’s will and the wills of those who refuse His fulness operate and manifest their consequences in pre-mortality, mortality, and into immortality.

 

The idea you just shared doesn’t recognize the degrees of light received from the Lord’s fulness according to the orbits (fixed courses) hours, times, seasons, reckoning (hours, weeks, months, years), etc., nor does it recognize how these differ between “the earth and all the planets.” The parable, which He clearly identifies as a parable, uses twelve fields for the sake of illustration, but we know from elsewhere that “these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof” are actually innumerable and comprehend (include) the earth in her celestial state and all the planets in their varying states. And we know from the context of the D&C 88 revelation, He is describing the ultimate, finished condition of those to whom He gave agency. I’m not seeing how these points fit into the twelfth-and-final world schema you just shared.

 

 

With the whole line upon line concept I believe that the Lord was trying to tell Joseph Smith the whole line upon line but Joseph Smith jumped to conclusions that werent warranted. Joseph assumed at this point in his life that this short life was the period for which people were judged as to their final state. The Lord on the other hand is trying to tell Joseph that his plan is to advance people line upon line precept upon precept until all those who can be saved become the same type of person completely cleansed and made spotless. The vision shows three worlds of glory. But, the arent future eternal worlds but just the same world at different stages of its progression. A very careful reading of the scriptures shows that the vision must beviewed this way to remove the paramount contradictions. Coupled with the endowment, this makes perfect sense because we really are in "the telestial kingdom" right now and in order to get to the celestial we must go through "the terrestrial kingdom" before we become worthy and ready to enter the celestial kingdom. The part everyone looks over in section 76 is that in the beginning part of this revelation before it expounds on the celestial, terrestrial and telestial it specifically states two groups- those whom are all cleansed from all sin through obedience to the gospel and atonement and the other group- the sons of perdition. Then, immediately afterwards it explains as a testimony of those cleansed being the celestial inhabitants.

[Rob Osborn]

I personally like the parable of the wheat and the tares because it transcends all time periods anciently and modern and absolutely clarifies and ties in the doctrines. In the parable all of us sent to this earth become either a wheat or a tare. God saves all the tares whike all the tares are burned. There are no other groups. The wheat are all stored in the garners to receive celestial glory while the tares are burned. There isnt any other designation for the wheat according to the parable- all the wheat go on into celestial glory.

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I personally like the parable of the wheat and the tares because it transcends all time periods anciently and modern and absolutely clarifies and ties in the doctrines. In the parable all of us sent to this earth become either a wheat or a tare. God saves all the tares whike all the tares are burned. There are no other groups. The wheat are all stored in the garners to receive celestial glory while the tares are burned. There isnt any other designation for the wheat according to the parable- all the wheat go on into celestial glory.

And as with the dichotomy and the variableness, this parable is complementary with the one in D&C 88, and for the same reasons. And as with all parables, there are many layers, lines and precepts of meaning and application (singularness for one purpose expanding into dichotomy for another purpose and then expanding into variableness for yet another purpose, and each mutually supportive). It is interesting in this regard that D&C 76 (02/16/1832) preceded 86 (12/06/1832), and 88 (12/27/1832) and 112 (07/23/1837) followed suit, demonstrating a building of understanding.

The highest or most advanced interpretation of the parable of the whet and tares to date, as indicated by it being the latest in sequence by revelation from the Lord, is that tares represent evil doctrines sown by the adversary; they are the darkness that is burned in the brightness of the Lord’s coming (112:23-24). This is what chokes the word of God (the wheat). The field is the earth (per D&C 88), and the burning is a) its making into paradise at the Second Coming for the Millennium and b) its eventual sanctification (also per D&C 88). And the wicked that are destroyed in these burnings will eventually be resurrected into a kingdom of glory on another planet (per D&C 88).

In whom lives the wheat (the word of God), and who possesses all of it, or much of it, or possesses little? Just because the false notions are burned away doesn't mean much wheat remains in a person's mind, leaving lots of variableness according to what one is willing to receive.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The part everyone looks over in section 76 is that in the beginning part of this revelation before it expounds on the celestial, terrestrial and telestial it specifically states two groups- those whom are all cleansed from all sin through obedience to the gospel and atonement and the other group- the sons of perdition. Then, immediately afterwards it explains as a testimony of those cleansed being the celestial inhabitants.

Yes, "someone" is overlooking "something" where it says, “That through him all might be saved.” It makes sense that everyone is cleansed by virtue of the Atonement of Christ, but by virtue of their non-atoning will/agency only might be saved. As an extreme example, those who were thus saved and then “deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” will cannot realize any degree of cleansing salvation. These verses use a simple compare-and-contrast teaching principle to introduce the lesson where further details are provided.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

And as with the dichotomy and the variableness, this parable is complementary with the one in D&C 88, and for the same reasons. And as with all parables, there are many layers, lines and precepts of meaning and application (singularness for one purpose expanding into dichotomy for another purpose and then expanding into variableness for yet another purpose, and each mutually supportive). It is interesting in this regard that D&C 76 (02/16/1832) preceded 86 (12/06/1832), and 88 (12/27/1832) and 112 (07/23/1837) followed suit, demonstrating a building of understanding.

 

The highest or most advanced interpretation of the parable of the whet and tares to date, as indicated by it being the latest in sequence by revelation from the Lord, is that tares represent evil doctrines sown by the adversary; they are the darkness that is burned in the brightness of the Lord’s coming (112:23-24). This is what chokes the word of God (the wheat). The field is the earth (per D&C 88), and the burning is a) its making into paradise at the Second Coming for the Millennium and b) its eventual sanctification (also per D&C 88). And the wicked that are destroyed in these burnings will eventually be resurrected into a kingdom of glory on another planet (per D&C 88).

 

In whom lives the wheat (the word of God), and who possesses all of it, or much of it, or possesses little? Just because the false notions are burned away doesn't mean much wheat remains in a person's mind, leaving lots of variableness according to what one is willing to receive.

I beg to differ, and, so does the church

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-81-89/section-86-the-parable-of-the-wheat-and-the-tares?lang=eng

"

1. 1. 

   The man sowing seed is the Son of Man (Jesus).

2. 2. 

   The field is the world.

3. 3. 

   The good seed are the children of the kingdom (followers of Jesus).

4. 4. 

   The tares are children of the wicked one (those who follow the enticements of Satan).

5. 5. 

   The enemy is the devil.

6. 6. 

   The harvest is the end of the world.

7. 7. 

   The reapers are the angels sent to reap the field.

8. 8. 

   The tares bound and burned are the evil ones separated out and cast into fire (punishment) at the Judgment.

9. 9. 

   The wheat gathered into the barn represents the righteous who are separated out and made to “shine forth” in the kingdom of the Father."

[Rob Osborn]

57 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, "someone" is overlooking "something" where it says, “That through him all might be saved.” It makes sense that everyone is cleansed by virtue of the Atonement of Christ, but by virtue of their non-atoning will/agency only might be saved. As an extreme example, those who were thus saved and then “deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” will cannot realize any degree of cleansing salvation. These verses use a simple compare-and-contrast teaching principle to introduce the lesson where further details are provided.

In verses 50-52 it describes how those who are saved are thus saved. Read-

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

This is the testimony part describing these individuals-

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I beg to differ, and, so does the church

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-81-89/section-86-the-parable-of-the-wheat-and-the-tares?lang=eng

I'm very happy you shared that because you are proving my point. Further down in the exact same lesson, we find:

"5.The tares (see D&C 86:4) represent evil doctrines and those who spread them. “Traditionally, tares have been identified with the darnel weed, a species of bearded rye-grass which closely resembles wheat in the early growth period and which is found in modern Palestine. This weed has a bitter taste; if eaten in any appreciable amount, either separately or when mixed with bread, it causes dizziness and often acts as a violent emetic.” (McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:296.)

President Joseph Fielding Smith pointed out that “even in the Church the tares are to be found. It is the tares which are to be gathered up and burned from all over the world, but those in the Church will also be gathered out and find their place in the fire. [See D&C 112:23–26.] The Savior also bore witness of [this. When] speaking to the Nephites he said: ‘For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from my people, O house of Israel.’ (3 Nephi 21:20.)” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:354.)"

Thus we have an example of how the parables offer multiple levels of understanding available for contextual application, and the line-upon-line approach to teaching a principle from the simplistic to the more complex and nuanced, all approved by the Lord's servants. In this case, teachings and those who uphold them, hence my earlier comments. Of course this approach can operate in a regressive rather than a progressive fashion (dwindling), but that is not the Lord's will.