CV75 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: So, then we should use the temple endowment also, revealed by Joseph Smith also. Then you have those other D&C teachings like the parable of the wheat and the tares that get skated around. That is how correlation works. As endowed members, those with the presiding keys and delegated assignments ensure proper doctrine is preserved in developing those materials and in presenting them in their proper order, time, place, context, etc. Now as a regular member I often indirectly use the temple endowment in my presentation and teaching of correlated lesson material, by way of its having expanded my understanding of the Gospel, and as I keep my covenants I know how and what to teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, CV75 said: That is how correlation works. As endowed members, those with the presiding keys and delegated assignments ensure proper doctrine is preserved in developing those materials and in presenting them in their proper order, time, place, context, etc. Now as a regular member I often indirectly use the temple endowment in my presentation and teaching of correlated lesson material, by way of its having expanded my understanding of the Gospel, and as I keep my covenants I know how and what to teach. I guess in due time we may graduate to the real doctrine and see the error of our ways. In the end its the truth that matters and what we have now is a few bricks shy of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Dont have any case do ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I guess in due time we may graduate to the real doctrine and see the error of our ways. In the end its the truth that matters and what we have now is a few bricks shy of it. Whatever the future holds in store for revealed doctrine, I’m still a bit stumped that you would teach the plan of salvation using only the Book of Mormon and 19th century Protestant terminology when it was translated by a prophet whom you believe misunderstood the later visions and revelations God gave him. How do you resolve that contradiction? P.S.: now that I think of it, Joseph Smith did introduce new words and concepts after all (Gazelem, gnolaum, and even telestial), in addition to new meanings to existing terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Whatever the future holds in store for revealed doctrine, I’m still a bit stumped that you would teach the plan of salvation using only the Book of Mormon and 19th century Protestant terminology when it was translated by a prophet whom you believe misunderstood the later visions and revelations God gave him. How do you resolve that contradiction? P.S.: now that I think of it, Joseph Smith did introduce new words and concepts after all (Gazelem, gnolaum, and even telestial), in addition to new meanings to existing terms. No. Im attempting to understand the plan of salvation after looking at all the revealed doctrine. My feeling is that the temple contains the closest reality. But most people cant accept that the telestial kingdom, the one Joseph saw in vision, is our very earth right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: No. Im attempting to understand the plan of salvation after looking at all the revealed doctrine. My feeling is that the temple contains the closest reality. But most people cant accept that the telestial kingdom, the one Joseph saw in vision, is our very earth right now. "No" to what? I do appreciate your attempt to understand.The same question holds for resolving the contradiction of understanding the plan of salvation including the temple teachings ("the closest reality") when they were revealed by a prophet whom you believe misunderstood other visions and revelations God gave him. Edited May 17, 2017 by CV75 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 2 hours ago, CV75 said: "No" to what? I do appreciate your attempt to understand.The same question holds for resolving the contradiction of understanding the plan of salvation including the temple teachings ("the closest reality") when they were revealed by a prophet whom you believe misunderstood other visions and revelations God gave him. The big problem is of why Joseph Smith sees the sons of perdition on the telestial world. There is just no way the revelation makes sense if its a future destination of the saved. The sons of perdition arent saved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 So strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: The big problem is of why Joseph Smith sees the sons of perdition on the telestial world. There is just no way the revelation makes sense if its a future destination of the saved. The sons of perdition arent saved I'm not sure why you keep deflecting my question (especially since the above has already been discussed), but it does get to the root of the theology you are sharing: How do you resolve the contradiction of understanding the plan of salvation including the temple teachings, which you accept as "the closest reality" to a description of the various estates involved and the purposes for them in the plan of salvation, when they were revealed by a prophet whom you believe misunderstood other key visions and revelations that God gave him on that very subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, CV75 said: I'm not sure why you keep deflecting my question (especially since the above has already been discussed), but it does get to the root of the theology you are sharing: How do you resolve the contradiction of understanding the plan of salvation including the temple teachings, which you accept as "the closest reality" to a description of the various estates involved and the purposes for them in the plan of salvation, when they were revealed by a prophet whom you believe misunderstood other key visions and revelations that God gave him on that very subject. I look at it kind of like the temple endowment is part #2 to the D&C. It clarifies the meaning of the kingdoms. The scriptures are replete with the requirements to be saved from hell eternally. Under our current model of the telestial world as a future world of salvation, the unrepentant wicked are found there. But, this completely contradicts what Christ has said about the wicked. The group quoted of in section 76:103- 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. Is quite interesting because they are spoken of in present tense. This word group is unique because it is the very same group spoken of in scripture as the ones who go into the second death. The second death does not begin until all have been redeemed from the first death. After all have been resurrected at the end of the millennium the second death then commences. The second death is permanant and only comes to the sons of perdition. Also of interest is that it is these very ones in section 76 that are not caught up unto the church of the firstborn. Everyone else is a member of the church of the firstborn. Christ also calls them his enemies and are not redeemed from the first death until he has perfected the kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:5) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: I look at it kind of like the temple endowment is part #2 to the D&C. It clarifies the meaning of the kingdoms. 14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:5) 10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22) It is very disappointing that you keep deflecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 27 minutes ago, CV75 said: It is very disappointing that you keep deflecting. I am not deflecting. I answered the why being that it is the temple endowment tgat clarifies. The supporting scripture I gave is to show why verses in section 76 can only be understood in light of this earth right now is the telestial world Joseph saw in vision and thus why he sees the whoremongers, liars, sorcers residing there. They arent found in heaven or any part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 https://askgramps.org/progression-between-kingdoms/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 4 hours ago, Carborendum said: https://askgramps.org/progression-between-kingdoms/ I describe this answer the best as dogma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 Just now, Rob Osborn said: I describe this answer the best as dogma. I describe it best as revealed truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Vort said: I describe it best as revealed truth. Revealed truth? I wouldnt count on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Revealed truth? I wouldnt count on it. Yes, we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Vort said: Yes, we know. Kind of hard to say something is revealed truth regarding no progression between kingdoms when we progress from the telestial to the terrestrial, then to the celestial kingdom in the temple. Edited May 20, 2017 by Rob Osborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 24 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Kind of hard to say something is revealed truth regarding no progression between kingdoms when we progress from the telestial to the terrestrial, then to the celestial kingdom in the temple. Not hard at all. And your characterization is flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 34 minutes ago, Vort said: Not hard at all. And your characterization is flawed. Let me use different language. We move from telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom then move to the celestial kingdom. In each kingdom we make covenants. The sum total of these brings one to the veil and entrance into the celestial kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Let me use different language. We move from telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom then move to the celestial kingdom. In each kingdom we make covenants. The sum total of these brings one to the veil and entrance into the celestial kingdom. You have badly misunderstood the endowment presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Vort said: You have badly misunderstood the endowment presentation. Okay, maybe say how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said: Okay, maybe say how? You think it represents postmortal, resurrected advancement between kingdoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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