Alma 41:4

[askandanswer]

 

 

Does Alma 41:4 suggest that Alma was unaware of the three degrees of glory? If so, would that support the idea that it is only in the latter days that the fulness of the gospel would be revealed?

 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

[Fether]

It may just be referencing to eternal progression and damnation. God lives in a state of eternal progression and the Devil is damned for all eternity. Only those that reach exaltation will have progression. Everyone else is damned

[CV75]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

 

 

Does Alma 41:4 suggest that Alma was unaware of the three degrees of glory? If so, would that support the idea that it is only in the latter days that the fulness of the gospel would be revealed?

 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

The three degrees are not taught in the Book of Mormon. Its fulness of the gospel refers I think to the unadulterated testimony of Jesus and His mission, and His teachings to the Nephites. The dispensation of the fulness of times will reveal a greater fulness of doctrines, which I think it different than the "Good News".

[Guest]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does Alma 41:4 suggest that Alma was unaware of the three degrees of glory? If so, would that support the idea that it is only in the latter days that the fulness of the gospel would be revealed?

That is a good question.  And there is no official answer.  My BoM religion professor said:

Quote

The point was that the Lord doesn't want you to think about "partial success."  He doesn't want you to just "get by" with the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms.  He wants you to recognize that anything short of the Celestial is not worthy of you who have been chosen as the elect of God who have been saved for that Latter-days.

Very encouraging.  And to certain audiences, that is exactly the message that they needed to hear.  To others, I'm not sure if it really answers the question.  I tend to believe the idea that this doctrine was only revealed After Christ was born.  Whether during His earthly ministry or after His death, I don't know.  And we were not given much through the BoM in the way of doctrinal information after Christ came to the Americas.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[Fether]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

 

 

Does Alma 41:4 suggest that Alma was unaware of the three degrees of glory? If so, would that support the idea that it is only in the latter days that the fulness of the gospel would be revealed?

 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

As far as the "fullness of the gospel" goes, it is t uncommon for ancient prophets to be ignorant of basic truths. If you remember, the Brother of Jared who was praised for his mighty faith and who communed with Christ regularly and who had many miracles occur around him. He was rather surprised to learn the Christ had a body like man. A simple doctrine that the youngest of saints are familiar with.

[Rob Osborn]

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

 

 

Does Alma 41:4 suggest that Alma was unaware of the three degrees of glory? If so, would that support the idea that it is only in the latter days that the fulness of the gospel would be revealed?

 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

Aha, this is that one area where LDS doctrine quite hasnt got things figured out yet. Its one area, in my opinion, that we havent connected the dots to see the plain and simple truth. In the end there are only two kingdoms- the kingsom of heaven and the kingdom of the devil. Alma 41:4 is absolutely spot on. Its when we try to add on or redefine that that causes a problem.

[bytebear]

15 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does Alma 41:4 suggest that Alma was unaware of the three degrees of glory? If so, would that support the idea that it is only in the latter days that the fulness of the gospel would be revealed?

 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

Sounds a lot like 1 Cor 15 (I changed the bold highlights to show the connection)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Aha, this is that one area where LDS doctrine quite hasnt got things figured out yet. Its one area, in my opinion, that we havent connected the dots to see the plain and simple truth. In the end there are only two kingdoms- the kingsom of heaven and the kingdom of the devil. Alma 41:4 is absolutely spot on. Its when we try to add on or redefine that that causes a problem.

This would imply that the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms are part of the kingdom of heaven. is that a conclusion you are comfortable with, and if so, can you explain why? I acknowledge that in a very broad sense, everything belongs to God and that there is nothing outside His reach, but following that line of argument would lead to the conclusion that there is also no kingdom of the devil.

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

As far as the "fullness of the gospel" goes, it is t uncommon for ancient prophets to be ignorant of basic truths. If you remember, the Brother of Jared who was praised for his mighty faith and who communed with Christ regularly and who had many miracles occur around him. He was rather surprised to learn the Christ had a body like man. A simple doctrine that the youngest of saints are familiar with.

And Adam didn't even know the purpose of offering sacrifices to the Lord, although in this case, there might perhaps some valid reasons why he didn't know.

6. And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord?  And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
 

[Rob Osborn]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This would imply that the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms are part of the kingdom of heaven. is that a conclusion you are comfortable with, and if so, can you explain why? I acknowledge that in a very broad sense, everything belongs to God and that there is nothing outside His reach, but following that line of argument would lead to the conclusion that there is also no kingdom of the devil.

Its a bit complicated but give me a moment to explain. The kingdom of God is found inside all three kingdoms- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. There is both the kingdom of God on earth and the kingdom of God in heaven. Right now the kingdom of God on earth is found in the church. The kingdom of God in heaven is where God himself now resides which is a separate place. After the millennium the kingdom of God in heaven and the kingdom of God on earth will unite and become known only as the kingdom of heaven after that.

Paramount to this understanding is that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are not eternal kingdoms, they both have an end at the end of the millennium. Right now we are in the telestial kingdom which also is known as the first heaven. At the beginning of the millennium this earth will pass away by fire and then be quickened and brought into a new heaven, the second heaven. This stage will then become the terrestrial kingdom. It will last a 1000 years and then again pass away by fire and again brought to a new heaven, the third heaven and quickened into the celestial glory. It is at this point that all will be judged. Those who have hearkened unto the Lord and his commandments will be saved on the right hand into the celestial kingdom while the rest will be bound in strong bundles to be burned and cast into outer darkness which is the kingdom of the devil.

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its a bit complicated but give me a moment to explain. The kingdom of God is found inside all three kingdoms- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. There is both the kingdom of God on earth and the kingdom of God in heaven. Right now the kingdom of God on earth is found in the church. The kingdom of God in heaven is where God himself now resides which is a separate place. After the millennium the kingdom of God in heaven and the kingdom of God on earth will unite and become known only as the kingdom of heaven after that.

Paramount to this understanding is that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are not eternal kingdoms, they both have an end at the end of the millennium. Right now we are in the telestial kingdom which also is known as the first heaven. At the beginning of the millennium this earth will pass away by fire and then be quickened and brought into a new heaven, the second heaven. This stage will then become the terrestrial kingdom. It will last a 1000 years and then again pass away by fire and again brought to a new heaven, the third heaven and quickened into the celestial glory. It is at this point that all will be judged. Those who have hearkened unto the Lord and his commandments will be saved on the right hand into the celestial kingdom while the rest will be bound in strong bundles to be burned and cast into outer darkness which is the kingdom of the devil.

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

He comes to that conclusion because he read something on an anti-Mormon site as to what the temple ceremony says.  But I was just at the temple to listen specifically for this.  It doesn't say that.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

How do you arrive at this conclusion?

All of the evidence points to it.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

He comes to that conclusion because he read something on an anti-Mormon site as to what the temple ceremony says.  But I was just at the temple to listen specifically for this.  It doesn't say that.

This is a lie

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

All of the evidence points to it.

Will you lay out the evidence, or provide a link to a site where it is used to support this interpretation of D&C 76 and the conclusion you've shared? Thank you.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Will you lay out the evidence, or provide a link to a site where it is used to support this interpretation of D&C 76 and the conclusion you've shared? Thank you.

Oh boy.  Here we go again.

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its a bit complicated but give me a moment to explain. The kingdom of God is found inside all three kingdoms- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. There is both the kingdom of God on earth and the kingdom of God in heaven. Right now the kingdom of God on earth is found in the church. The kingdom of God in heaven is where God himself now resides which is a separate place. After the millennium the kingdom of God in heaven and the kingdom of God on earth will unite and become known only as the kingdom of heaven after that.

Paramount to this understanding is that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are not eternal kingdoms, they both have an end at the end of the millennium. Right now we are in the telestial kingdom which also is known as the first heaven. At the beginning of the millennium this earth will pass away by fire and then be quickened and brought into a new heaven, the second heaven. This stage will then become the terrestrial kingdom. It will last a 1000 years and then again pass away by fire and again brought to a new heaven, the third heaven and quickened into the celestial glory. It is at this point that all will be judged. Those who have hearkened unto the Lord and his commandments will be saved on the right hand into the celestial kingdom while the rest will be bound in strong bundles to be burned and cast into outer darkness which is the kingdom of the devil.

I understand and agree with your first paragraph, but the second sounds like new doctrine to me and is somewhat different from my current understanding. It doesn't quite respond to my question, which is, if God is over all, and all powerful, and there is nothing beyond His reach, can there really be a kingdom of the devil or does everything come under God's jurisdiction?

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Will you lay out the evidence, or provide a link to a site where it is used to support this interpretation of D&C 76 and the conclusion you've shared? Thank you.

Joseph Smith restored the gospel. Along with that came truth again line upon line. First came the Book of Mormon, then came other teachings as now found in the D&C and then towards the end of his life came the temple teachings. Along through all of this we have additional insights as found in sources such as the PoGP, Teachings of the prophet Josrph Smith, etc.

It is in the Book of Mormon that we are first introduced to the great "plan of salvation". Under this doctrine, which is centered on Christ himself appearing to the ancient American inhabitants, it is laid out very simply as either the right hand or the left, the sheep or the goats, the wheat or the tares, the saved or the damned, etc, basically only one path of salvation exists and that one path leading to only place. This is exemplified in Lehis vision of the tree of life. When Christ came he built upon this gospel, did away with the law of moses and instituted the sacrament just like we see in the NT. Christ also expounded on heaven and hell in this very strict dichotomy. The pinnacle point of his teaching, upon which his entire gospel is founded upon is found in 3rd Nephi-

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father. (3rd Nephi 27:13-17)

 This is basically a direct quote from Jesus Christ himself. This doctrine must absolutely be true. All of our doctrine, teachings, understandings must be done in light of these scriptures. What do they say? It says that all men must repent, be baptized, and endure to the end in order to be found guiltless and be saved. Those who do not this are cast out into the fire which the Book of Mormon explains as being the second death pronounced upon the devil and his angels at the great last day of judgment at the end of the millennium. Repentance, baptism and endurance from that point only leads to one place- the celestial kingdom.

Fast forward now to section 76. This revelation was given after the BoM but before the details of the endowment ceremony. Section 76 introduces a new concept with the three worlds of glory- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. In understanding this, it must fit into what Christ taught himself in the BoM. On the surface it would appear that these three worlds of glory are three separate places after resurrection and judgment. Its rather vague though whats going on because there are several contradictions under this classic model. Things such as those who die without law going to the terrestrial which include the mentally handicapped and children who die before becoming accountable as they are without law. Anyone actually needing repentance and baptism are those die within the law and as such are not the ones spoken of. Another issue being why the unrepentant whoremongers are found in the telestial when it says that Christ will only save the repentant. Its as if we are recieving contradictive doctrine.

Now, fast forward again to the endowment teaching in the temple revealed much later on to Joseph Smith. We learn that the endowment is the full plan of salvation. The temple preparation classes now taught even teach this. So, if the temple teaches the full plan of salvation it should do two things- it should build upon the teachings, expounding upon, the teachings of Christ found in the BoM. It should also add clarification to sections such as 76. And, it does do exactly that. In the endowment, and common knowledge given in any walkthrough open house of the temple, we start in the telestial room. This room represents the world we now live in. It is referred specifically as "the telestial kingdom". We are currently in the telestial kingdom. From that room we progress into the terrestrial kingdom and then after that into the celestial kingdom. Those who do not endure, in all covenants, become subject to, and sealed to the devil. Everyone going through this walkthrough of the plan realize that in the end all that is left at the end of the plan is celestial exaltation. This is what Christ was referring to in commanding all to repent, be baptized, and endure to the end to not be cast into outer darkness.

now, fastforward again. Joseph Smith, taught two principles. He taught that one must start at the bottom of a ladder and climb one rung at a time until he reaches exaltation. He also taught that Pauls vision of the third heaven was in reference to Jacobs ladder from the OT and that the three principle rungs of the ladder were the telestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the third was the celestial kingdom. This is not mere coincidence as to why we progress through the telestial and terrestrial to get to the celestial as taught in the temple. The endowment really is the whole plan, nothing excluded. What we have missed, or yet to connect the dots, is that just like Christ taught in the Book of Mormon, he has no power to save anyone from an everlasting hell if they do not repent, be born again through water and the spirit, becoming a son or daughter of God and endure to the end(all tempke covenants). If they are not found completely pure and clean at the last day they cannot even be partially saved.

 

 

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Joseph Smith restored the gospel. Along with that came truth again line upon line. First came the Book of Mormon, then came other teachings as now found in the D&C and then towards the end of his life came the temple teachings. Along through all of this we have additional insights as found in sources such as the PoGP, Teachings of the prophet Josrph Smith, etc.

It is in the Book of Mormon that we are first introduced to the great "plan of salvation". Under this doctrine, which is centered on Christ himself appearing to the ancient American inhabitants, it is laid out very simply as either the right hand or the left, the sheep or the goats, the wheat or the tares, the saved or the damned, etc, basically only one path of salvation exists and that one path leading to only place. This is exemplified in Lehis vision of the tree of life. When Christ came he built upon this gospel, did away with the law of moses and instituted the sacrament just like we see in the NT. Christ also expounded on heaven and hell in this very strict dichotomy. The pinnacle point of his teaching, upon which his entire gospel is founded upon is found in 3rd Nephi-

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father. (3rd Nephi 27:13-17)

 This is basically a direct quote from Jesus Christ himself. This doctrine must absolutely be true. All of our doctrine, teachings, understandings must be done in light of these scriptures. What do they say? It says that all men must repent, be baptized, and endure to the end in order to be found guiltless and be saved. Those who do not this are cast out into the fire which the Book of Mormon explains as being the second death pronounced upon the devil and his angels at the great last day of judgment at the end of the millennium. Repentance, baptism and endurance from that point only leads to one place- the celestial kingdom.

Fast forward now to section 76. This revelation was given after the BoM but before the details of the endowment ceremony. Section 76 introduces a new concept with the three worlds of glory- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. In understanding this, it must fit into what Christ taught himself in the BoM. On the surface it would appear that these three worlds of glory are three separate places after resurrection and judgment. Its rather vague though whats going on because there are several contradictions under this classic model. Things such as those who die without law going to the terrestrial which include the mentally handicapped and children who die before becoming accountable as they are without law. Anyone actually needing repentance and baptism are those die within the law and as such are not the ones spoken of. Another issue being why the unrepentant whoremongers are found in the telestial when it says that Christ will only save the repentant. Its as if we are recieving contradictive doctrine.

Now, fast forward again to the endowment teaching in the temple revealed much later on to Joseph Smith. We learn that the endowment is the full plan of salvation. The temple preparation classes now taught even teach this. So, if the temple teaches the full plan of salvation it should do two things- it should build upon the teachings, expounding upon, the teachings of Christ found in the BoM. It should also add clarification to sections such as 76. And, it does do exactly that. In the endowment, and common knowledge given in any walkthrough open house of the temple, we start in the telestial room. This room represents the world we now live in. It is referred specifically as "the telestial kingdom". We are currently in the telestial kingdom. From that room we progress into the terrestrial kingdom and then after that into the celestial kingdom. Those who do not endure, in all covenants, become subject to, and sealed to the devil. Everyone going through this walkthrough of the plan realize that in the end all that is left at the end of the plan is celestial exaltation. This is what Christ was referring to in commanding all to repent, be baptized, and endure to the end to not be cast into outer darkness.

now, fastforward again. Joseph Smith, taught two principles. He taught that one must start at the bottom of a ladder and climb one rung at a time until he reaches exaltation. He also taught that Pauls vision of the third heaven was in reference to Jacobs ladder from the OT and that the three principle rungs of the ladder were the telestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the third was the celestial kingdom. This is not mere coincidence as to why we progress through the telestial and terrestrial to get to the celestial as taught in the temple. The endowment really is the whole plan, nothing excluded. What we have missed, or yet to connect the dots, is that just like Christ taught in the Book of Mormon, he has no power to save anyone from an everlasting hell if they do not repent, be born again through water and the spirit, becoming a son or daughter of God and endure to the end(all tempke covenants). If they are not found completely pure and clean at the last day they cannot even be partially saved.

 

 

Thank you. I think that distinguishing between the fulness of the Gospel and the doctrines revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times; distinguishing between the finished mortal ministry (and resurrection) of Jesus, which is the Good News, and the finishing of His larger plan as the resurrected Lord (which includes the Church of the Firstborn and the mansions of the Father, and distinguishing between them); and distinguishing between the literal and the symbolic meaning of ordinances, visions and dreams are each essential in the LDS Church leaders’ explanation of the three kingdoms of glory (D&C 76, 131, 132, 138, etc.). For example:

The gospel taught in the Book of Mormon refers I think to the unadulterated testimony of Jesus and His mission, and His teachings to the Nephites, and not to a fullness of the teachings about the afterlife. The Lord will reveal a greater fulness of doctrines in the dispensation of the fulness of times, which I think is a different premise than the "Good News" that had already been “finished” by Jesus Christ.

The testament of the “fulness” of the Gospel is the “finished” ministry of the mortal Jesus, and the ushering in of the completion of His entire work upon the earth is to occur in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In 3 Nephi 27:15 Jesus uses a key phrase, “that they may be judged according to their works” as opposed to simply “they will be judged as one or the other.” D&C 76 describes the array of potential in the spectrum of works that can be performed in mortality that point to the respective degrees of judgement. Certainly people both “endure” and “endure not” (verses 16-17) differently and to different extents.

Subsequent revelations are consistent with the Book of Mormon, including line upon line and precept upon precept, which lays the expectation for expanded doctrine but not the Gospel, which Jesus fully accomplished as Joseph Smith taught: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven [The fulness of the Gospel in the Book of Mormon]; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it [all other revealed doctrines].”

I see no reference in D&C 76 to the mentally handicapped and children as being “without the law.” And even unrepentant whoremongers can repent of other things, which could accrue to their benefit!

The presentation of the endowment is a symbolic format with many applications, as are Paul’s vision (literally a vision) and Jacob’s ladder (a dream).

[CV75]

I'd like to add something about 3 Nephi 27;13-17. Jesus' atonement certainly made the two outcomes possible. I think that, from His and the Father's perspective, His atonement absolutely guarantees the fulfillment of the Father's will that every spirit child who has come into to the second estate be exalted, and so by virtue of His atonement there are those two outcomes only--exaltation and perdition--as far as They are concerned. That price has been paid in full. But given that we have also been given our full agency, our will can override those two options and hence all sorts of fruit (kingdoms) cumber the tree (see Jacob 5). Such is the fate of those abiding by Isaiah 50:11, where they exercise so many greater or lesser ways to fail (Mosiah 4:29).

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'd like to add something about 3 Nephi 27;13-17. Jesus' atonement certainly made the two outcomes possible. I think that, from His and the Father's perspective, His atonement absolutely guarantees the fulfillment of the Father's will that every spirit child who has come into to the second estate be exalted, and so by virtue of His atonement there are those two outcomes only--exaltation and perdition--as far as They are concerned. That price has been paid in full. But given that we have also been given our full agency, our will can override those two options and hence all sorts of fruit (kingdoms) cumber the tree (see Jacob 5). Such is the fate of those abiding by Isaiah 50:11, where they exercise so many greater or lesser ways to fail (Mosiah 4:29).

Except the two options are strictly to either be completely repentant and become spotless or be burned, no middle ground.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Thank you. I think that distinguishing between the fulness of the Gospel and the doctrines revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times; distinguishing between the finished mortal ministry (and resurrection) of Jesus, which is the Good News, and the finishing of His larger plan as the resurrected Lord (which includes the Church of the Firstborn and the mansions of the Father, and distinguishing between them); and distinguishing between the literal and the symbolic meaning of ordinances, visions and dreams are each essential in the LDS Church leaders’ explanation of the three kingdoms of glory (D&C 76, 131, 132, 138, etc.). For example:

The gospel taught in the Book of Mormon refers I think to the unadulterated testimony of Jesus and His mission, and His teachings to the Nephites, and not to a fullness of the teachings about the afterlife. The Lord will reveal a greater fulness of doctrines in the dispensation of the fulness of times, which I think is a different premise than the "Good News" that had already been “finished” by Jesus Christ.

 

The testament of the “fulness” of the Gospel is the “finished” ministry of the mortal Jesus, and the ushering in of the completion of His entire work upon the earth is to occur in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In 3 Nephi 27:15 Jesus uses a key phrase, “that they may be judged according to their works” as opposed to simply “they will be judged as one or the other.” D&C 76 describes the array of potential in the spectrum of works that can be performed in mortality that point to the respective degrees of judgement. Certainly people both “endure” and “endure not” (verses 16-17) differently and to different extents.

 

Subsequent revelations are consistent with the Book of Mormon, including line upon line and precept upon precept, which lays the expectation for expanded doctrine but not the Gospel, which Jesus fully accomplished as Joseph Smith taught: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven [The fulness of the Gospel in the Book of Mormon]; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it [all other revealed doctrines].”

 

I see no reference in D&C 76 to the mentally handicapped and children as being “without the law.” And even unrepentant whoremongers can repent of other things, which could accrue to their benefit!

 

The presentation of the endowment is a symbolic format with many applications, as are Paul’s vision (literally a vision) and Jacob’s ladder (a dream).

Two things-

Those who die without law cannot be judged by law and the atonement automatically covers them. They do not go to spirit prison but go to paradise. They are not taught the need of repentance and baptism as they need no such thing as they are not condemned in need of salvation. So then, why are they in the terrestrial, if it were an eternal kingdom after resurrection?

Also, the vision shows that in the telestial kingdom are whoremongers. If they were already completely cleaned and repented through the atonement then these cannot be labled as such as Christ remembers their sin no more. But, they are spoken of in the present tense meaning they "are" whoremongers. The argument here is also countered that if they were repentant they would be in the terrestrial and not the telestial as our doctribe teaches that the unrepentant go to the telestial.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Except the two options are strictly to either be completely repentant and become spotless or be burned, no middle ground.

Those are the only two options He offers with His agency, the only two that His Atonement allows. And yet with our agency, we can choose something else and lie down in sorrow without being burned. In D&C 76 for example, He is not offering three kingdoms of glory as a flexible result of His Atonement. In that Section, He is laying out what happens if you submit your will to His (celestial) and if you abide in any configuration of your own (the lesser kingdoms).

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Two things-

Those who die without law cannot be judged by law and the atonement automatically covers them. They do not go to spirit prison but go to paradise. They are not taught the need of repentance and baptism as they need no such thing as they are not condemned in need of salvation. So then, why are they in the terrestrial, if it were an eternal kingdom after resurrection?

Also, the vision shows that in the telestial kingdom are whoremongers. If they were already completely cleaned and repented through the atonement then these cannot be labled as such as Christ remembers their sin no more. But, they are spoken of in the present tense meaning they "are" whoremongers. The argument here is also countered that if they were repentant they would be in the terrestrial and not the telestial as our doctribe teaches that the unrepentant go to the telestial.

The various uses and contexts of "without law" need to be distinguished one from another as they appear throughout the scriptures.

D&C 71-76 is a sampling of those inheriting the terrestrial world in the resurrection. Some died without law, and some went to spirit prison. In either case, after all is said and done in this life and/or the spirit world, they only went so far as to receive the testimony of Jesus. They did not go on to receive any other covenant as did those who were valiant in the testimony of Jesus after receiving it.

Regarding D&C 76:98-107, the inhabitants of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom are not only whoremongers, they can also be “they who say they are some of one and some of another,” and liars, sorcerers, and adulterers who “received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant” as did those in the other kingdoms. Lots of rebellion to choose from. Again, after all is said and done in this life and/or the spirit world, they still would not give up their will for these things. Yet while they are not fit for Perdition, of course it is possible for someone to repent of sorcery and/or lying and/or a more benighted philosophy of man but still not whoremongering, and inhabit a mansion in the telestial kingdom as a result.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Those are the only two options He offers with His agency, the only two that His Atonement allows. And yet with our agency, we can choose something else and lie down in sorrow without being burned. In D&C 76 for example, He is not offering three kingdoms of glory as a flexible result of His Atonement. In that Section, He is laying out what happens if you submit your will to His (celestial) and if you abide in any configuration of your own (the lesser kingdoms).

The various uses and contexts of "without law" need to be distinguished one from another as they appear throughout the scriptures.

D&C 71-76 is a sampling of those inheriting the terrestrial world in the resurrection. Some died without law, and some went to spirit prison. In either case, after all is said and done in this life and/or the spirit world, they only went so far as to receive the testimony of Jesus. They did not go on to receive any other covenant as did those who were valiant in the testimony of Jesus after receiving it.

 

Regarding D&C 76:98-107, the inhabitants of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom are not only whoremongers, they can also be “they who say they are some of one and some of another,” and liars, sorcerers, and adulterers who “received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant” as did those in the other kingdoms. Lots of rebellion to choose from. Again, after all is said and done in this life and/or the spirit world, they still would not give up their will for these things. Yet while they are not fit for Perdition, of course it is possible for someone to repent of sorcery and/or lying and/or a more benighted philosophy of man but still not whoremongering, and inhabit a mansion in the telestial kingdom as a result.

 

Actually, it mentions the sons of perdition in the telestial world. Now how could that possibly be?

[CV75]

31 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Actually, it mentions the sons of perdition in the telestial world. Now how could that possibly be?

Where does D&C 76 mention sons of perdition in the telestial world?