2 Kings Chapter 23

[Jamie123]

Does it not worry you that after all the things Josiah did put things right (with the temple etc.), God was still angry because of the bad stuff Manasseh had done? It makes you wonder if perhaps repentance isn't all its cracked up to be.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Jamie123
Questions deserve question marks.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Does it not worry you that after all the things Josiah did put things right (with the temple etc.), God was still angry because of the bad stuff Manasseh had done? It makes you wonder if perhaps repentance isn't all its cracked up to be.

I think this is a perfect example of exactly how repentance is supposed to work.

[Jamie123]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I think this is a perfect example of exactly how repentance is supposed to work.

Interesting... I find it hard to square this with "The vilest offender who truly believes, That moment from Jesus a pardon receives." Still - hymn writers don't always get their theology right.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting... I find it hard to square this with "The vilest offender who truly believes, That moment from Jesus a pardon receives." Still - hymn writers don't always get their theology right.

I think it squares perfectly. 

[Jamie123]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I think it squares perfectly. 

Word to the wise, eh?

The trouble is I'm stupid! 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Word to the wise, eh?

The trouble is I'm stupid! 

No, you're just looking at it with non-Mormon eyes.  But I've got a pair of glasses here.  In fact, they were worn by Benjamin Franklin himself.  I was actually there when he made them. 

[Jamie123]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was actually there when he made them. 

This would be Benjamin Franklin of Franklins Dry Cleaners and Spectacle Makers, Bedford Ave, Brooklyn, NY 1211?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

This would be Benjamin Franklin of Franklins Dry Cleaners and Spectacle Makers, Bedford Ave, Brooklyn, NY 1211?

That would be

402 Broadway; ZIP 11211.

[Jamie123]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That would be

402 Broadway; ZIP 11211.

Please give my regards to his daughter Georgina and tell her I hope her bagpipes lessons are going well.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Please give my regards to his daughter Georgina and tell her I hope her bagpipes lessons are going well.

She's not taking bagpipes.  She's studying the mandola.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Does it not worry you that after all the things Josiah did put things right (with the temple etc.), God was still angry because of the bad stuff Manasseh had done? It makes you wonder if perhaps repentance isn't all its cracked up to be.

Have you considered that while the king can force all the changes described in this chapter, what he cannot do is force the people to sincerely repent and turn to God?  Have you considered that God's wrath continued because a significant percentage of the people were just waiting for Josiah to die so they could go back to their wickedness?

[MrShorty]

I also thought of Zil's response -- How much sway did Josiah's repentance really have over the rest of the kingdom. These books in the OT seem to focus on the kings specifically and really doesn't seem to say much about the people generally. I have frequently observed (from my privileged 20th/21st century American vantage point) that the ancient Israelites sure seemed content to simply follow (for good or ill) the instructions of whatever king was over them at the time without any real convictions of their own.

I do note that with the wicked kings, we frequently say that the wicked king "caused" the people to do wickedly (we say this regarding King Noah in the BoM and Jereboam seems to have that kind of phrase attached to his name a lot including vs 15 in this reference), is there a fundamental difference in this "cause and effect" between a wicked king and a righteous king? Why are we so quick to say that "wicked kings cause the people to do wickedly", but slower to accept that "righteous kings cause the people to do righteously"?

This thought might offend those with a more "God breathed" view of scripture, but is it possible that the author(s) of Kings did not have their theology right? Unlike the BoM, I am not sure if the authors of Kings are "prophet-historians" like Mormon or not. Is it possible that these authors writing this history saw that bad things continued to happen to Judah in spite of Josiah's repentance, and possibly incorrectly recorded that God caused those bad things to happen because of prior kings' wickedness? it certainly wouldn't be the first time humankind has dealt with the question of why bad things happen to good people and sometimes erroneously decided that God must be punishing the good people for their prior sins or for someone else's sins.

An interesting contrast might be to contrast verse 26 against those statements by Jesus that He was always so willing to gather the Israelites like a hen gathers her chicks. How does the example given here of Josiah change or nuance how we interpret these statements of the Savior?

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Have you considered that God's wrath continued because a significant percentage of the people were just waiting for Josiah to die so they could go back to their wickedness?

Very likely, but didn't God rather hasten that moment by having Josiah get himself killed by Neco? If so it sounds like God punished the people by having their good king die so a bad one could take over, so he could then get on with the business of punishing them some more. Also verse 26 suggests that God was not angry with the people in general but with Manasseh (who was by that time dead anyway).

There's no denying that God is complicated. But maybe that's what we ought to expect, God being God and all that.

40 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

This thought might offend those with a more "God breathed" view of scripture, but is it possible that the author(s) of Kings did not have their theology right?

The "unreliable narrator" - there's an interesting thought!

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

She's not taking bagpipes.  She's studying the mandola.

Tell her I'm practicing the ukulele. I can play "O Suzanna" quite well (if you don't mind 10 minute intervals during chord changes).

[Guest]

Just now, Jamie123 said:

Tell her I'm practicing the ukulele. I can play "O Suzanna" quite well (if you don't mind 10 minute intervals during chord changes).

I'm doing the same thing with a kazoo.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Very likely, but didn't God rather hasten that moment by having Josiah get himself killed by Neco? If so it sounds like God punished the people by having their good king die so a bad one could take over, so he could then get on with the business of punishing them some more. Also verse 26 suggests that God was not angry with the people in general but with Manasseh (who was by that time dead anyway).

2 Chr 33:12-13

2 Chr 35:20-27

[Jamie123]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

2 Chr 33:12-13

2 Chr 35:20-27

Very interesting. An alternative telling often helps. It sounds like Josiah may have had a "stupid death". One thought springs to mind though: why would a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh claim to be doing what God told him to do? (Though I believe the Egyptians did have at least one period of monotheism.)

Edited July 12, 2017 by Jamie123

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Very interesting. An alternative telling often helps. It sounds like Josiah may have had a "stupid death". One thought springs to mind though: why would a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh claim to be doing what God told him to do? (Though I believe the Egyptians did have at least one period of monotheism.)

You tell me.

The wise men came from afar.  What religion were they?  Yet they came to worship the King of the Jews.

Why did Balaam have supernatural powers when he was helping the enemies of Israel?

Non-religious students of the Bible tend to think that the Chronicles account was erroneous because it sounded too contrived.  But they also tend to think that Josiah never existed at all.  So, take that for what it's worth.

The take away is that we don't know all the details of these accounts.  And we don't know the reason why the Lord did whatever He did or did not do.

[Snigmorder]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting... I find it hard to square this with "The vilest offender who truly believes, That moment from Jesus a pardon receives." Still - hymn writers don't always get their theology right.

Hymns never were doctrine. For example, the Mormon national anthem says that God's knowledge and power are expanding. When the Scriptures are clear that he is omniscient and omnipotent. (Or maybe it just means that the knowledge of God and the power of God is expanding among men)

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

the Mormon national anthem says that God's knowledge and power are expanding

For those who don't know, he's referring to hymn #2, "The Spirit of God", and it does not say God's knowledge and power are expanding.  It says (italics mine):

Quote

2. The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding,
Restoring their judges and all as at first.
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst

It's important to read the verse in context.  That line does not stand alone.  The other 3 lines explain what that line means.

[Snigmorder]

13 hours ago, zil said:

For those who don't know, he's referring to hymn #2, "The Spirit of God", and it does not say God's knowledge and power are expanding.  It says (italics mine):

It's important to read the verse in context.  That line does not stand alone.  The other 3 lines explain what that line means.

I assumed he wrote that because he was one of "those people" who thought that God was increasing His knowledge.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Snigmorder

[zil]

4 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

I assumed he wrote that because he was one of "those people" who thought that God was increasing her knowledge.

I don't comprehend this reply.  And you added your parenthetical comment after I replied.  The parenthetical comment has the correct interpretation and the line is not a good example of hymns teaching false doctrine.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

I assumed he wrote that because he was one of "those people" who thought that God was increasing her knowledge.

The meaning is about the word "of".  Replace it with "coming from" and you'll understand the meaning.

"The knowledge and power coming from God are expanding."

That will fit better with the other three lines.  But it doesn't fit the rhythm of the song.  So, "of" is used.

[Jamie123]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You tell me.

I'll try: maybe Neco and the Assyrian king had no interest at that time in fighting Judah and the arrival of Josiah's army was an unwanted distraction. Maybe "Your God told me to do this" was an argument he thought might appeal to Josiah, to make him go away.

[Snigmorder]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

I don't comprehend this reply.  And you added your parenthetical comment after I replied.  The parenthetical comment has the correct interpretation and the line is not a good example of hymns teaching false doctrine.

Relax, don't think about it too much. I threw in those parentheses at the last second thinking "or could be that." But when you have people like Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff believing that God is increasing in knowledge, that's what I hear in the song.